Refereeing decisions

[Pfitzy]

Sounds good trials, but hope it doesn't just cause more problems for ref with extra things to watch? I guess one thing they should do is also make sure there another ball on halfway, so players don't use excuse that they have to retrieve ball etc. Really like the 9 having to play ball in 5 seconds, only thing to decide when the 5 seconds starts, but like that.

Requires a bit of adjustment to looking at your watch for sure Rucks probably the easiest to manage in that scenario. Call "Use it!" ... 2 ... 3 ... 4 ... and blow the whistle if you get to 5.

Ball boys need to be sharp!

 

[Viking]

Requires a bit of adjustment to looking at your watch for sure Rucks probably the easiest to manage in that scenario. Call "Use it!" ... 2 ... 3 ... 4 ... and blow the whistle if you get to 5.

Ball boys need to be sharp!

Just lead to more scrums and they are the biggest time-consuming part of the game. Reset after reset. Boring to watch.

They need to call "use it" and then say "balls out" and then it's deemed general play and let the opposition come over and pick it up.

 

[Viking]

We should also be taking away scrum penalties. The goal of a scrum was to give both teams a chance to compete for the ball after there is a knock-on.

The outcome of a scrum these days is:
1. Team feeding wins the scrum
2. Team feeding wins a penalty
3. Opposition team wins a penalty

Thats it. 3 possible outcomes.

When is the last time an opposing team has won a scrum without it being a penalty? These are ridiculous outcomes for a knock-on.

It should be short-arm penalties only. Maximum of one re-set and then ref must blows the short-arm.

 

[Viking]

This is in today's Canberra Times:
The ACT Brumbies and NSW Waratahs have agreed with referees to rest a set of protocols in the hope it will promote more ball-in-play time on Saturday afternoon.

The Brumbies and Waratahs will have just 30 seconds to set scrums and lineouts, will get 60 seconds to take a penalty shot at goal, 90 seconds for a conversion and 30 seconds to get back to halfway to restart the game.

The referee will also police the breakdown more harshly, giving scrumhalves just five seconds to use the ball.
The time-sensitive trial is the product of a trans-Tasman conference where coaches and officials came together to address to stop-start nature of Super Rugby

I like the clocks. Would also love to see some leeway with quick taps. Why are refs so pedantic that a quick tap needs to be 'on the mark'. They should allow a quick tap anywhere behind the mark.

More rules to get the ball in play quicker and for longer I say.

Also, for line-outs, if the opposition doesn't get a jumper in the air, then there's leeway for hookers throwing it straight (to some extent).

 

[Dan54]

We should also be taking away scrum penalties. The goal of a scrum was to give both teams a chance to compete for the ball after there is a knock-on.

The outcome of a scrum these days is:
1. Team feeding wins the scrum
2. Team feeding wins a penalty
3. Opposition team wins a penalty

Thats it. 3 possible outcomes.

When is the last time an opposing team has won a scrum without it being a penalty? These are ridiculous outcomes for a knock-on.

It should be short-arm penalties only. Maximum of one re-set and then ref must blows the short-arm.

I have a problem with if you lose a scrum, and go backwards you tend to get penalised, almost a penalty for not being as good as opposition. Same as standing up in front row, you usually have been done by opposition prop and are not contributing anyway. I know there a reason for penalties like they are, just I think collapsing scrum should be main pebalty as it dangerous.

 

[Viking]

I have a problem with if you lose a scrum, and go backwards you tend to get penalised, almost a penalty for not being as good as opposition. Same as standing up in front row, you usually have been done by opposition prop and are not contributing anyway. I know there a reason for penalties like they are, just I think collapsing scrum should be main pebalty as it dangerous.

Yeh dangerous play should always be a penalty. I feel yellow/red cards should be reserved for dangerous play.

I don't understand why we are seeing so many cards now for repeated penalties? Or what they deemed as cynical play? I find is hard to believe players are getting worse in this department over the last 5-10 years.

Penalty tries automatically a yellow? why? They already get 7 points without taking a kick.

 

[Th0mo]

I don't think people are complaining about TMO stuff for tries, tries are usually black/white for knock ons/in touch.

It's the foul play TMO reviews people want gone because a lot of it is about judging intent/mitigation right there and then and that's tough.

I think the inconsistency of the TMO intervention on foul play is more of an issue. We get random ones for penalty only clean outs but letting text book YC and RC's go unreviewed in the same game. Perhaps the TMO should be limited to YC threshold referrals only unless ref calls for TMO to check. Maybe, since they are so inconcsistent, it should go further and be limited to on field requests from the ref or captains and ultimately reviewed by the on field officials.

Regarding try decisons. last night's 'own try' looked like an example where refs question limited TMO's options as ref called it an on field decision for try. If that goes up as a question of try or no try maybe the TMO calls it differently as there is no threshold to override the on field decision. I know the intent is to back the ref's on field call but once TMO is involved the question shouldn't matter anymore unless there are no useful camera angles in which case can go back to on field call.

 

[Th0mo]

I don't understand why we are seeing so many cards now for repeated penalties? Or what they deemed as cynical play? I find is hard to believe players are getting worse in this department over the last 5-10 years.

Penalty tries automatically a yellow? why? They already get 7 points without taking a kick.

Because professional teams deliberately infringe when on the back foot and red zone. The inconcsistency when some teams get away with it actually leads to more teams rolling the dice. I'd like to see more consistent and firm application of cards for repeat infringements till players get the message and let the other team play, even if that means conceding a try.

 

[Viking]

Because professional teams deliberately infringe when on the back foot and red zone. The inconcsistency when some teams get away with it actually leads to more teams rolling the dice. I'd like to see more consistent and firm application of cards for repeat infringements till players get the message and let the other team play, even if that means conceding a try.

I have a better idea. Repeated infringements lead to a penalty try. They get an automatic 7 points but there are no cards and it's still 15 v 15 rugby.

I would say a card and penalty try is pretty on par in terms of disadvantage for the team - a penalty try probably worse IMO. But at least fans won't be punished.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Could we adapt the system used in basketball where they have personal & team fouls? A player who concedes "x" penalties fouls out but can be replaced; and once a team concedes "y" penalties in a half every subsequent penalty is an opposition shot at goal on the offenders 22 (no scrum or tap option). Cards for foul play only incl 20-min Red.

 

[KOB1987]

There needs to be an offset for the penalty for missing something in the referee evaluation system. The time the ball is in play would probably be the best metrics for this.

 

[Pfitzy]

While I don't agree with everything he says, for the most part he is on the money...

As an Irish pundit, I'll bet he's spent a fair bit of time screaming at refs for perceived injustices

 

[JRugby]

I like the clocks. Would also love to see some leeway with quick taps. Why are refs so pedantic that a quick tap needs to be 'on the mark'. They should allow a quick tap anywhere behind the mark.

More rules to get the ball in play quicker and for longer I say.

Also, for line-outs, if the opposition doesn't get a jumper in the air, then there's leeway for hookers throwing it straight (to some extent).

Great idea - would incentivise quicker throws (and the ball in play quicker) if a straight throw is only required when both teams compete.

 

[JRugby]

This is in today's Canberra Times:
The ACT Brumbies and NSW Waratahs have agreed with referees to rest a set of protocols in the hope it will promote more ball-in-play time on Saturday afternoon.

The Brumbies and Waratahs will have just 30 seconds to set scrums and lineouts, will get 60 seconds to take a penalty shot at goal, 90 seconds for a conversion and 30 seconds to get back to halfway to restart the game.

The referee will also police the breakdown more harshly, giving scrumhalves just five seconds to use the ball.
The time-sensitive trial is the product of a trans-Tasman conference where coaches and officials came together to address to stop-start nature of Super Rugby

Maybe a radical ploy but what if we removed the option to take a scrum at penalties. I know we love scrums and they are unique to rugby but they're also the biggest time sapping element of the game so having some but limiting the number of scrums could help.

The idea: No scrum option so we don't have a series of penalties into scrums. Quick taps can be taken anywhere from behind the scrum mark (inc where the halfback has the ball, rather than having to shift it to the no8) or if a lineout is chosen - couple this with a 30s Line out clock and get the ball back in play

 

[Dan54]

Great idea - would incentivise quicker throws (and the ball in play quicker) if a straight throw is only required when both teams compete.

Only trouble with non straight throws being allowed, as a lineout jumper back when I played, if a ball was crooked I almost never jumped, as it a mental thing.(well was with me only jumped if I thought I could win ball)
The other side of course you would always have to jump. and so would make it easier to score maul tries from lineout.

 

[Viking]

Only trouble with non straight throws being allowed, as a lineout jumper back when I played, if a ball was crooked I almost never jumped, as it a mental thing.(well was with me only jumped if I thought I could win ball)
The other side of course you would always have to jump. and so would make it easier to score maul tries from lineout.

Nice points. But I do challenge your idea. The rules won't be perfect but if they make the game better 'most of the time' then they should be changed.

I would say teams are currently trying to get guys in the air 9 times out of 10, on the occasion they don't, like trying to defend a maul on the try line, the attacking team are going to win the ball 9/10 anyway, the only way they don't is from a bad throw/miss-timing. So it will probably only make 1-10% tries easier from a line-out anyway and for me, that is a little price to pay to speed up the game.

Obviously all made-up statistics, but hopefully they still make the point i was trying to make.

On the mental aspect, I think given how professional teams are these days, it should not affect these guys.

I would at least say, they could change the rule so quick taps are taken instead of scrums for things like crooked line-outs.

 

[Rob42]

Any feedback on the scrum clock trialled at the NSW-ACT game on the weekend?

 

[Happy]

Maybe a radical ploy but what if we removed the option to take a scrum at penalties. I know we love scrums and they are unique to rugby but they're also the biggest time sapping element of the game so having some but limiting the number of scrums could help.

The idea: No scrum option so we don't have a series of penalties into scrums. Quick taps can be taken anywhere from behind the scrum mark (inc where the halfback has the ball, rather than having to shift it to the no8) or if a lineout is chosen - couple this with a 30s Line out clock and get the ball back in play

As part of the trial in the Brumbies Waratahs game, any transgressions of the time allowed couldn't result in a scrum:
"There's time compliance for scrums, lineouts, restarts and conversions ... there will be strict adherence to that. Any breaches will be a free kick, but you can't go to a scrum."

 

[Brumby Runner]

Wasn't watching closely but scrums were generally quick and tidy, not many resets. I am pretty sure there were no turnovers of possession due to protracted scrums, or lineouts or penalties. A couple of longish delays due to injury, but that was it.

 

[Dan54]

I not sure if I should mention this here as it not a decision.
But NZR will have upset a few who think we shouldn't know who ref is etc in tests, and have actually presented caps to all international refs from NZ mlae or female in a big luncheon on Friday, also found family members of deceased refs. I like it myself.