Reds v Waratahs, round 19 2014

[cyclopath]

Too be honest, I don't care what position you hold on this forum as you are one of the most pig-headed posters on it, albeit with a little more grace then some of the other serial offenders.

The fact of the matter is the contracting system in Australia is about as cloak and dagger in a smoked filled room of mirrors as it is about as transient as a brick wall in fort knox.

However, we can look at the players who were recruited as opposed to those who were lost.

Accounts receivable;

Kurtley Beale
Nick Phipps
Jacques Potgeiter
Taqele Naiyaravoro
Tala Grey
Carraro
Jono Lance

Not bad for a singular offseason?

Throw Israel in the year before too for good measure.

I won't post this, without giving you at-least a tiny pat on the back. Alofa and Skelton were beautiful additions to the list, given that they were players most coaches would not have given a second look at, so kudos to Cheika.


Now moving to the outgoing component of the spreadsheet. I couldn't even tell you, I care that little, but please illuminate who you lost to make room for all these players?

Please go and find a witches hat, and sit on it.

Regards,

I see your point about the players listed being a handy bunch of pick-ups, in the main.
I'd love to know to what extent the ARU were involved, and I mean that honestly. I wouldn't know. As you say, the process seems opaque.
I assume Beale and Phipps are on ARU top-ups (was Phipps already topped-up prior to shifting??).
I won't touch the Folau issue - obviously any franchise would have had him gladly.
It would be nice to know whether any other manoeuvring goes on behind the scenes.
I've said before that I find the top-up system troubling, but I'll be the first to admit I don't really know how to structure an alternative. The process should be clearer, I agree.

 

[tranquility]

I see your point about the players listed being a handy bunch of pick-ups, in the main.
I'd love to know to what extent the ARU were involved, and I mean that honestly. I wouldn't know. As you say, the process seems opaque.
I assume Beale and Phipps are on ARU top-ups (was Phipps already topped-up prior to shifting??).
I won't touch the Folau issue - obviously any franchise would have had him gladly.
It would be nice to know whether any other manoeuvring goes on behind the scenes.
I've said before that I find the top-up system troubling, but I'll be the first to admit I don't really know how to structure an alternative. The process should be clearer, I agree.

Sure, and this is the position I too hold.

My original point, was that it doesn't both me - but to not compare the success of the Waratahs recruitment drives to the other franchhises as we are clearly not playing a game where the rules are the same.

It is what it is, but I said not to insult the intelligence of people on here or yourself by suggesting otherwise. (I am not directing this at you Cyclo, I just can't be bothered rewriting this to make it universal.)

I will be going for the Brumbies and whoever is playing the Tahs. Looking forward to a great finals series.

 

[Pfitzy]

The problem with the ARU top-up system is its discriminatory by its very nature. There is only so much money to go around the fight off the dirty French and the mouth-pissers, and the ARU - at least today - has to cater to its biggest market.

If the system ran on more equitable base salaries and match fees only, the cupboard would be even more bare.

Yep, looks good for me as a NSW fan right now, but how big are the top-up contracts for e.g. QC (Quade Cooper) and Genia? They're injured and their top-up isn't being put out on the market in financial terms.

There has been a lot of heat about The Honey Badger going, and why didn't the ARU do anything, but quite frankly was he a guaranteed Wallaby? Maybe not once Speight gets the right passport and Tomane recovers and Horne locks up a spot on form etc. etc.

Great PR, but THB by himself won't have the same net effect on the bottom line as a winning Wallaby side.

 

[Quick Hands]

Sure, and this is the position I too hold.

My original point, was that it doesn't both me - but to not compare the success of the Waratahs recruitment drives to the other franchhises as we are clearly not playing a game where the rules are the same.

It is what it is, but I said not to insult the intelligence of people on here or yourself by suggesting otherwise. (I am not directing this at you Cyclo, I just can't be bothered rewriting this to make it universal.)

I will be going for the Brumbies and whoever is playing the Tahs. Looking forward to a great finals series.

Strange that you'd prefer a NZ or a SAF team to win ahead of another Australian team. I thought we'd moved beyond that thinking in Australian rugby - clearly not.

Waratah supporters have had plenty of opportunity watching other Aussie teams in super finals and I can't ever recall any Waratah supporter that I know hoping that a NZ or SAF team would beat the Brumbies or Reds in super semis or finals.

 

[BPC]

Too be honest, I don't care what position you hold on this forum as you are one of the most pig-headed posters on it, albeit with a little more grace then some of the other serial offenders.,

We have positions now?


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[Braveheart81]

Kurtley Beale
Nick Phipps
Jacques Potgeiter
Taqele Naiyaravoro
Tala Grey
Carraro
Jono Lance

Beale wasn't wanted by any other franchise and he wanted to come back to Sydney. Whether or not his ARU deal remained, there's no way the Tahs paid top dollar for him.

Phipps would be one of our higher paid players but I'm guessing he was motivated to return to Sydney as well. Our three scrum halfs the year before were McKibbin, Lucas and Hart. I'd wager they would have collectively been the cheapest set of halfbacks out of any Oz team by some distance.

Potgieter was recruited as a marquee player. Those funds don't have anything to do with the salary cap.

Naiyaravoro came midseason from reserve grade rugby league from a team that was happy to offload him. Do you honestly think he is on anything higher than a basic super rugby contract?

Gray has never played Super Rugby and returned to Australia after a couple of years in France. He's a long, long way from commanding anything more than an average contract.

Carraro is in the same boat. He's never set the world alight and came back to the Tahs.

Lance seemingly wanted to move to Sydney. I can't believe his contract would be very different from what he was on at the Reds which wouldn't have been a big contract.

Let's look at who left in 2013:

Drew Mitchell leave who was one of our highest paid players; we recruited him from the Force pretty much at the peak of his value.

Lachie Turner went to the Reds. He was a Wallaby and a certain Super Rugby starter until all his injuries. Whoever you consider as his replacement, the Tahs would have saved money.

Damien Fitzpatrick and John Ulugia both left and were replaced by Latu and Roach on an EPS contract. Neither Fitzpatrick or Ulugia would have been highly paid but their replacements still would have been cheaper.

Sitaleki Timani left who would have been on a decent contract.

Berrick Barnes was a high value recruit when he came. He would have been one of the highest paid Tahs.

We then lost a bunch of lower value and EPS players like Carter, Kingston, Lopeti Timani, Ollie Atkins etc.

In 2012 we lost Mumm, Pretorius, Vickerman and Elsom who would have all been amongst the higher paid Waratahs.

Clearly there are a lot of Waratahs on Wallaby top up contracts. This was the case at the Reds a couple of years ago when more of your players were regular Wallabies and is becoming the case at the Brumbies. Whether paid through top ups or just match fees, teams with lots of Wallabies are always going to earn more money over the course of the season.

I think you are kidding yourself if you really think the Tahs are paying huge amounts more to their Super Rugby players than the other Australian teams.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the Reds forked out too much money to keep Genia in Queensland or perhaps some of your other stars who are no longer Wallaby standard but were a couple of years ago?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Tranquility go easy on the sour grapes. We have been the recipients of plenty of undeserved top ups (Fainga'a twins anybody). We've got no right to piss and moan about the system the second it doesn't go our way. We still fare better than Melbourne and the Force.

 

[Merrow]

Strange that you'd prefer a NZ or a SAF team to win ahead of another Australian team. I thought we'd moved beyond that thinking in Australian rugby - clearly not.

Waratah supporters have had plenty of opportunity watching other Aussie teams in super finals and I can't ever recall any Waratah supporter that I know hoping that a NZ or SAF team would beat the Brumbies or Reds in super semis or finals.

Funnily enough I know quite a few people that will barrack for anyone who plays against the Waratahs.

 

[Braveheart81]

Further, it was well publicised that the Tahs couldn't compete with the offer the Rebels made for Foley but Cheika convinced him to stay on the faith of where the Tahs were going and what it might do for his game. It was basically saying that they knew he was worth more but they couldn't pay it but if things went well that would improve in a season.

Horne wanted to stay but was only offered a one year contract on average money. Thankfully he chose to stay over chasing more money elsewhere and he's likely to be rewarded with a much better two year contract.

Cheika has chosen wear to spend his money well in my opinion. He ditched more expensive wingers after 2013 and still wasn't willing to pay much to retain quality wingers in 2014 in Crawford and Alofa because whilst they've been great there are lots of options around at the moment. Kellaway is coming on board next season and there are a couple of other excellent young wingers in Shute Shield in Northam and Jones. A player's value isn't just relative to how good they are, it has to be weighed up against how much the replacement will cost and how much of a step down they will be. When their are quality young players waiting for an opportunity then it is a buyer's market.

 

[gel]

We have positions now?


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I bags No. 10

 

[tranquility]

Strange that you'd prefer a NZ or a SAF team to win ahead of another Australian team. I thought we'd moved beyond that thinking in Australian rugby - clearly not.

Waratah supporters have had plenty of opportunity watching other Aussie teams in super finals and I can't ever recall any Waratah supporter that I know hoping that a NZ or SAF team would beat the Brumbies or Reds in super semis or finals.

I would always prefer a NZ team or a SA side over the Waratahs. I think they are the worst rugby club in the world. This opinion has nothing to do with their play on the field.

Tranquility go easy on the sour grapes. We have been the recipients of plenty of undeserved top ups (Fainga'a twins anybody). We've got no right to piss and moan about the system the second it doesn't go our way. We still fare better than Melbourne and the Force.

There is no "we" between me and yourself. I very rarely agree with anything you say or the tone you say it in. It is just coincidence that we support the same team.

Go Brumbies.

 

[Highlander35]

I think they are the worst rugby club in the world. This opinion has nothing to do with their play on the field.

You don't know about the Saracens, do you?

 

[Pete King]

I won't post this, without giving you at-least a tiny pat on the back. Alofa and Skelton were beautiful additions to the list, given that they were players most coaches would not have given a second look at, so kudos to Cheika.


Regards,

Not sure that

Taqele Naiyaravoro
Tala Grey
Carraro

Were on the radar of many coaches eitiher. grey also yet to make any impact at duper level. Hoiles playing week to week. Jackpot has far exceeded anyones expectation as has phipps and beale from where they were a season ago. Beale with his off field dramas was not exactly hugely in demand.

Fuck me dead it annoys me how QLDers are QLDers first and Australians second.

 

[tranquility]

You don't know about the Saracens, do you?

Haha, I do!

 

[Pfitzy]

Can everyone please speak up? I can't hear over the sound of tranquillity getting owned.

 

[Pete King]

sorry BH just read your post which comprehensively schooled tranquility

 

[tranquility]

Can everyone please speak up? I can't hear over the sound of tranquillity getting owned.

Okay, I have been meaning to say this for a while. Pfitzy, you were clearly a bullied redneck, who never grew out of those mental scars. You now piss in a pot in the wilderness that you scantily pretend to be Sydney. This much is clear.

If you really want me to reply to BH point for point I will. But not this night.

Good evening.

 

[Pete King]

and he takes his ball and drags his tail home....

 

[cyclopath]

How about everyone just pulls their collective heads in a bit?
Opinions can be voiced without pitchforks being hoisted.

 

[Train Without a Station]

That's because I'm a balanced and reasonable person and you're the rugby fan equivalent of jihad extremist. We, as in the QLD Reds, the team we Reds supporters have been talking from the perspective of.

Anyway, the St George Queensland Reds have been the recipients of their fair share of top ups.

Based on the current/previous system it appears that the following Reds players receive a top up of some level. Please anybody correct me if any of these are incorrect:

1. Quade Cooper
2. Will Genia
3. James Slipper
4. James Horwill
5. Rob Simmons
6. Saia Fainga'a
7. Liam Gill
8. Anthony Fainga'a
9. Ben Tapuai
10. Mike Harris

Barring injury only those bolded would have gotten game time.

I cannot see how we can complain. The Waratahs benefit from being the largest rugby city in Australia, so therefore a high percentage of talent wants to live there, as it is their home city. We benefit almost equally from this.

Just on the other hand, referring to the Waratahs based on the current system the following I believe have top ups. Those bolded have played, non-bolded didn't. Currently undeserving in italic.

1. Benn Robinson
2. Tatafu Polata-Nau
3. Sekope Kepu
4. Kane Douglas
5. David Dennis
6. Wyclif Palu
7. Michael Hooper*
8. Nick Phipps*
9. Kurtley Beale*
10. Israel Folau
11. Adam Ashley Cooper*

Now I have left Paddy Ryan off on the same basis I left Hanson off for the Reds. Anybody please correct me if I am wrong.

I have also put an * against the players who I assume were under an ARU contract when signed by the Waratahs from a previous team. In each case, it was a decision to move back to Sydney, to the team they very likely grew up supporting and wanting to play for. I'd imagine they likely would have gone for an equal or marginally less offer.

Anyway the Waratahs likely have one more top up and only 2 they shouldn't have compared to up to 4 at the Reds based on form and selection.

You are being absolutely ridiculous.