Reds 2018

[Zero_Cool]

CFS was marked up on Paia'au, and whoever the winger outside of him should have been covering Marantra. You need to trust you inside defenders, CFS did the right thing by staying out on Paia'aua, Timu was the one who faulted there he should have easily marked Sorovi.

Gotta agree with this CFS had no choice but to stick with Paia'aua, had he come off Paia'aua he'd have been carved up. But I think the criticism of Timu is only half justified, Mo is lightning fast. And you knew that exact kind of play is something he was always going to try and it was always going to be a try.

I think the best answer is Higgers plays 6 and Timu 8, at least for defensive scrums. I do think it's marginal as to who would be the better ball runner between Timu and Higgers, they each bring very different aspects to it.

I'll also post a short write up on what I took away from the match.

 

[Zero_Cool]

So after giving it some consideration my pick for the starting XV from the trial match (only guys in the trial match) would be:

1) Slipper
2) Ready
3) Tupou
4) Tui
5) Blyth
6) Timu
7) Korczyk
8) Higginbotham

9) Tuttle
10) Stewart
11) Perese
12) Paia'aua
13)Kerevi
14) Daugunu
15) Nick Jooste

Notes that suck in my head, kind of working down the team sheets:
I don't think these teams were representative of any kind of pecking order, I actually think they were deliberately quite balanced and they were designed to get a look at players who Thorn wanted to see, and a few in situations where they might be a little uncomfortable (Kerevi).
Forwards

Red



Slipper has put on a lot of weight -- in a good way.
Peanga-Amosa I think we have our backup hooker.
Tui just monsters anyone who comes near him, classic lock enforcer. But his work rate is a little lower than it might be; probably because he expends so much energy crushing the spirit of his opposition.
I don't remember the last time I was impressed with a game from Kane Douglas, but after today's game that hasn't changed at all he was fine but not outstanding, I don't know if he'll even be on the bench with Hockings and Blyth both looking very impressive (until/unless they go to the U20RWC).
Timu was surprisingly quite, could it be that his NRC form as just a fluke, maybe he just had a bad game, but I've not seen anyone even mention him
Korczyk looked really impressive, very busy around the park and looks like he's been working on getting over the ball more, he's just edged closer to starting in my books.
While


Tupou had an average game, he just hangs around the ruck a bit too much not doing much, but he's fuck-me-fast and accelerates like a sports car!
I feel like Hockings needs to put on a bit of weight. But he and Blyth are going to really make a contest for the lock spot while Rodda is out, I think all things being equal they were both more impressive than Douglas, I expect while they are available they'll be selected for the bench over Douglas.
Reece Hewart looks like he coming along nicely, still got a way to go, but he's getting better.
Backs


Tuttle looked impressive and is most likely the choice halfback for the Reds.
Hamish Stewart looked like he has hours with the ball in hand, his kicking was somewhat poor but to be fair the conditions were far from ideal. He had a really nice run towards the end where he just cannonballed through a number of defenders - slap a 13 on his back kind of cannonball too! What was most impressive about this is that he didn't do it with his speed but with his raw power. With the talk of Paia'aua playing 10 it's genuinely shocking that no one has really mentioned Stewart playing 12!
Sorovi looked really good, surprisingly good, I actually almost hope Ben Lucas is a dud now just so we can see Sorovi get that bench spot. Also McDermott has the best pass I've seen from a halfback in a long long time, can't we just merdge Sorovi and McDermott into one player - it would probably be a young George Gregan.
Kerevi at 12 was an interesting option, I don't think too many people would have predicted the Stewart - Kerevi - Feaual-Sautia combo before this game. It was a nice little combination, but I think Paia'aua is just far too good to be left out even if it is for Samu and/or CFS.
CFS at 13, I did like the SK - CFS centre pairing but I think it was just a little too obvious that both Kerevi and CFS are just too limited in their playmaking and kicking ability for this to be viable at Super Rugby. In the words of my friend after the game 'Kerevi is a bit of a one trick pony, that one tirck is very effective and honestly he's one of the best in the world at it, but he can't kick and isn't an outstanding passer'.

the other side of the centre pairing consisted of Paia'aua and Petaia, I haven't seen much of Petaia and didn't noticed enough of him to really form an opinion at this point, but he didn't look bad so there is that.
Paia'aua was clearly the best player on the field tonight, had a shocker nothing went his way but was still head and shoulders above the rest!
Perese showed a touch of ill-discipline with an "attempted intercept" that was adjudged a knock down, I and those siting around me felt that it was a genuine intercept attempt but in today's game is there even room for anything short of a successful intercept? When Super Rugby rolls around you can't look surprised when the refs send you for those!
Daugunu was surprisingly anonymous, I don't recall seeing him very involved but I wasn't too focused on any of the wingers, I was more interested to see the halves and centres.
As for the fullbacks, I liked Jooste at 15.Maranta did have a really nice run up the middle.

Regarding the bench players, I didn't pay them too much attention. So won't say much except to say McDermot looked really nice too, we are going to have a lot of really good competition for the halfback spot.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Based on NRC form, Gunn played better then Wright in 2017 IMO. Wright would appear to have far more potential and may be the long term successor, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Gunn start the season, his game really improved in 2017.


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Very happy to review our respective views at the end of season and even during.

 

[fatprop]

Still don’t buy it.
Especially with hunt out as well.
If that’s the case his experience still has value in the squad when you’re paying his salary anyway.
Unless you feel he would be too divisive on the bench.
Or unless there’s more.

Well, no coke for Hunt so he can be expected back, contrite, if heavily fined

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[Zero_Cool]

Well, no coke for Hunt so he can be expected back, contrite, if heavily fined

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I would point out that the charges brought word appear to be well outside the guidelines, so either he's got a fucking outstanding lawyer (he probably does) or there is more to the story than we is being told.

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[Strewthcobber]

I would point out that the charges brought word appear to be well outside the guidelines, so either he's got a fucking outstanding lawyer (he probably does) or there is more to the story than we is being told.

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which guidelines?

 

[Zero_Cool]

which guidelines?

The guidelines that the police work under. The TLDR is the charge that was brought depended on a text message from 7 months ago; it mentioned something about drinks, *ice*, glasses, and a party. Not the most convincing of evidence. I have also heard some rumblings about body cam footage but I'm not certain what has gone on with that. From this it is pretty clear either the police officers involved were 'going above and beyond' or there has been some very skillful legal maneuvering. And regardless of those it's still before the courts so we are almost certainly not getting all the information.

 

[TOCC]

Theres a thread for this issue, take it there thanks.

 

[TOCC]

So after giving it some consideration my pick for the starting XV from the trial match (only guys in the trial match) would be:

1) Slipper
2) Ready
3) Tupou
4) Tui
5) Blyth
6) Timu
7) Korczyk
8) Higginbotham

9) Tuttle
10) Stewart
11) Perese
12) Paia'aua
13)Kerevi
14) Daugunu
15) Nick Jooste

Notes that suck in my head, kind of working down the team sheets:
I don't think these teams were representative of any kind of pecking order, I actually think they were deliberately quite balanced and they were designed to get a look at players who Thorn wanted to see, and a few in situations where they might be a little uncomfortable (Kerevi).
Forwards

Red



Slipper has put on a lot of weight -- in a good way.
Peanga-Amosa I think we have our backup hooker.
Tui just monsters anyone who comes near him, classic lock enforcer. But his work rate is a little lower than it might be; probably because he expends so much energy crushing the spirit of his opposition.
I don't remember the last time I was impressed with a game from Kane Douglas, but after today's game that hasn't changed at all he was fine but not outstanding, I don't know if he'll even be on the bench with Hockings and Blyth both looking very impressive (until/unless they go to the U20RWC).
Timu was surprisingly quite, could it be that his NRC form as just a fluke, maybe he just had a bad game, but I've not seen anyone even mention him
Korczyk looked really impressive, very busy around the park and looks like he's been working on getting over the ball more, he's just edged closer to starting in my books.
While


Tupou had an average game, he just hangs around the ruck a bit too much not doing much, but he's fuck-me-fast and accelerates like a sports car!
I feel like Hockings needs to put on a bit of weight. But he and Blyth are going to really make a contest for the lock spot while Rodda is out, I think all things being equal they were both more impressive than Douglas, I expect while they are available they'll be selected for the bench over Douglas.
Reece Hewart looks like he coming along nicely, still got a way to go, but he's getting better.
Backs


Tuttle looked impressive and is most likely the choice halfback for the Reds.
Hamish Stewart looked like he has hours with the ball in hand, his kicking was somewhat poor but to be fair the conditions were far from ideal. He had a really nice run towards the end where he just cannonballed through a number of defenders - slap a 13 on his back kind of cannonball too! What was most impressive about this is that he didn't do it with his speed but with his raw power. With the talk of Paia'aua playing 10 it's genuinely shocking that no one has really mentioned Stewart playing 12!
Sorovi looked really good, surprisingly good, I actually almost hope Ben Lucas is a dud now just so we can see Sorovi get that bench spot. Also McDermott has the best pass I've seen from a halfback in a long long time, can't we just merdge Sorovi and McDermott into one player - it would probably be a young George Gregan.
Kerevi at 12 was an interesting option, I don't think too many people would have predicted the Stewart - Kerevi - Feaual-Sautia combo before this game. It was a nice little combination, but I think Paia'aua is just far too good to be left out even if it is for Samu and/or CFS.
CFS at 13, I did like the SK - CFS centre pairing but I think it was just a little too obvious that both Kerevi and CFS are just too limited in their playmaking and kicking ability for this to be viable at Super Rugby. In the words of my friend after the game 'Kerevi is a bit of a one trick pony, that one tirck is very effective and honestly he's one of the best in the world at it, but he can't kick and isn't an outstanding passer'.

the other side of the centre pairing consisted of Paia'aua and Petaia, I haven't seen much of Petaia and didn't noticed enough of him to really form an opinion at this point, but he didn't look bad so there is that.
Paia'aua was clearly the best player on the field tonight, had a shocker nothing went his way but was still head and shoulders above the rest!
Perese showed a touch of ill-discipline with an "attempted intercept" that was adjudged a knock down, I and those siting around me felt that it was a genuine intercept attempt but in today's game is there even room for anything short of a successful intercept? When Super Rugby rolls around you can't look surprised when the refs send you for those!
Daugunu was surprisingly anonymous, I don't recall seeing him very involved but I wasn't too focused on any of the wingers, I was more interested to see the halves and centres.
As for the fullbacks, I liked Jooste at 15.Maranta did have a really nice run up the middle.

Regarding the bench players, I didn't pay them too much attention. So won't say much except to say McDermot looked really nice too, we are going to have a lot of really good competition for the halfback spot.

Good review. A couple of things, Stewart played 12 at NRC level, and his game suited that role well, its been mentioned in the past that it may be that 10 isn't his best position, IMO he could easily play 10, 12 or 15 in the long term. Also I don't imagine Ben Lucas will be the reserve halfback, they have experimented in the past with that but I think they'll run a dedicated halfback on the bench.

 

[tragic]

Well, no coke for Hunt so he can be expected back, contrite, if heavily fined

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Will be very interesting.
Going on Thorne’s track record he may still not play him even if they don’t have grounds to tear up his contract - just quietly leave him absent without any announcement or fanfare.
Then there’s always the bringing the club into disrepute option.
I genuinely have no idea which way the shambles at Reds HQ will take this one.
Can’t say I really care either.

 

[Zero_Cool]

Good review. A couple of things, Stewart played 12 at NRC level, and his game suited that role well, its been mentioned in the past that it may be that 10 isn't his best position, IMO he could easily play 10, 12 or 15 in the long term. Also I don't imagine Ben Lucas will be the reserve halfback, they have experimented in the past with that but I think they'll run a dedicated halfback on the bench.

Yeah, I do think Stewart could play 12 or 15 very well. I think he's kind of at a point where he's a bit like a young Beale in that he can easily go either way to play 10 or 12. But in my opinion the factors that push him most towards being a 10 is his relatively smaller size (about 85 kg as opposed to the 90+ of most centres), and his composure with the ball -- the kid always looks like he's got hours with the ball in hand.
Beyond that I think the fact that the Reds (and Wallabies) need a 10 will kind of force him to play 10. But you are right he could play 12, or 15 easily. IMO if we are taking a dedicated halfback on the bench, I probably would rather the alternative replacement (likely Lance/Hunt/Stewart/Paia'aua/CFS). I just don't think Lucas' versatility is going to make up for the outright ability he is likely lacking.
Still a good signing mind you, he'll be a really good guy to have a training and so on. I just don't think he'd be high enough on that depth chart to get on the bench.

 

[TOCC]

Super Rugby is won by a squad of 35, I think that’s the average figure of players who feature for a championship team throughout the year. Lucas may not be first choice, but in the event that a starting player or first choice reserve is injured, he is a pretty handy mature player to be able to promote to the match day squad. It’s a good conundrum to have.


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[Zero_Cool]

Super Rugby is won by a squad of 35, I think that’s the average figure of players who feature for a championship team throughout the year. Lucas may not be first choice, but in the event that a starting player or first choice reserve is injured, he is a pretty handy mature player to be able to promote to the match day squad. It’s a good conundrum to have.


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Yeah, the more I look at the squad, the more I think they have a chance of having a Brumbies-esqu season where they win a few games they shouldn't and turn a few clear losses into bonus points. I wouldn't go so far as to expect it, but I think there are the bones of a very good team. Forwards wise they are in really good shape, Front row is among the best in Australia, second row will be the best in Australia (soon could be best in Super Rugby!). Back row is actually quite weak but is ozzing young talent.
The backs were worrying and a bit weaker, but Kerevi is a world class 13 he had Wales specifically targeting their defence on Kerevi and he still makes 10 meters per carry, Paia'aua was the best aussie 12 in Super Rugby last year, and with Hunt looking likely to come back it's a really nice back 3.
Even if they aren't amazing this season they are all very very young and will have a monster team in a few years!

 

[dru]

There is definitely "bones for a very good team".

There has been for 6 years. And this is possibly the lowest start that we've had in that time. And our schedule is the worst I've seem since following Super Rugby. I am very hopeful as to how this sharpens up going forward. But we should avoid building too many expectation for 2018 - especially from an internal trial.

btw as much as I love Duncan (with Quade gone he's my favourite Red) it's ridiculous to call him the best Aussie 12 last year. Deserved his WB call up. I expect more in this light going forward but he will struggle to oust Beale in the second fly role.

We have been pregnant with expectation many times in the off season in recent years with at least as much promise.

The Brad-Quade thing for me is poison. Let's see how things develop. There is plenty to be proven. Internal trial does not do it. Nor does the 10s.

 

[Zero_Cool]

btw as much as I love Duncan (with Quade gone he's my favourite Red) it's ridiculous to call him the best Aussie 12 last year. Deserved his WB call up. I expect more in this light going forward but he will struggle to oust Beale in the second fly role.

Of the other Aussie 12's who played Super Rugby last year (not Beale) who was better than him?
Maybe Kyle Godwin or Reece Hodge (not that Hodge was really a 12), definitely not Bill Meakes or Rob Horne. So really only Godwin but he hardly played IIRC.
Edit: Sorry if it was unclear I was referring only to the Aussie Super Rugby players.

 

[dru]

You can't discount Beale simply because he doesn't fit your concept of a 12. At national level Duncan was on the list, but down it some, few thought that to be an odd selection by Cheika.

At any rate, I don't doubt his ability, I'l just not placing him as best in Australia. Yet.

 

[TOCC]

I think he is discounting Beale because he didn’t play Super Rugby last year


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[TOCC]

Back on trial Matches, sounds like the Reds couldn’t secure an opposition team to play against:

"Ideally, you'd play Super Rugby teams," Thorn said.

"I'm not going to hide that, that's what I'd prefer, but that's what we have and that's what it is.

"Full respect to the Fijian guys ... that will be a good hit-out for us."


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[dru]

I think he is discounting Beale because he didn’t play Super Rugby last year


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Haha - fair enough

 

[Zero_Cool]

Back on trial Matches, sounds like the Reds couldn’t secure an opposition team to play against:

"Ideally, you'd play Super Rugby teams," Thorn said.

"I'm not going to hide that, that's what I'd prefer, but that's what we have and that's what it is.

"Full respect to the Fijian guys . that will be a good hit-out for us."


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I don't know if it is as planned or not, but I think it's a bit of a happy accident. I think it's actually an advantage that they'll be so unknown. Most their players haven't played a lot of Super (nor any other rugby really) so will make it really hard to get too much of an idea what to expect.

I think the litmus test for them will be against the Brumbies (particularly after the Rebles were dismantled by them).

And yes, I wasn't counting Beale because he didn't play Super, meaning Paia'aua should have been the 12 for the June Tests. I don't think he's better than Beale, nor is he going to be too soon. But I think Paia'aua is going to be a really nice bench player for the Wallabies because he can cover a number of positions (10, 12, 15 and maybe 13).