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Reds 2017

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Thinker

Darby Loudon (17)
Good to see the annual reemergence for the Taylor/McKay rumours.

For some silly reason Stiles has another year and I highly doubt the QRU would be paying out a former coach for yet another year given how much RG and O'Connor cost them for nothing.

We need to accept it won't be until 2019 at the earliest we have even an average team.

For a quality coach to work with the current group would be like Michelangelo taking advice from for 5 year old finger painters while completing the Sistine Chapel.
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
The Reds are in flux in 2017, they were always going to be inconsistent and they have been.

Stiles deserves 2018 and maybe even 2019 to see if some of his development players, systems, and skill/culture focuses stick.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
The Reds are in flux in 2017, they were always going to be inconsistent and they have been.

Stiles deserves 2018 and maybe even 2019 to see if some of his development players, systems, and skill/culture focuses stick.

Very amusing 'Stiles deserves' - and the QRU's fragile finances, badly declining crowds, anxious sponsors and all that is required for the QRU to avert yet another ARU bail-out, that can just wait through 2019 for Stiles and his 'development program' to possibly bear fruit can it?

I sometimes despair that people here fail completely to understand the commercial prerequisites to a sports code franchise just surviving, let alone prospering.

Der - you need 'success on the field', 'wins', 'victories at home', 'reasonably fan-engaging style of play', a 'few star players'.

(Also, just btw, the 'Reds are in flux' line has been trotted out for them since 2013.)
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
Happy to give him 2018 but if there isn't a finals appearance he needs to go. Link and Cheika turned sides around in similar times. Both won the title in second years. Not expecting Stiles to replicate that but a finals berth should be a reasonable expectation.

The finals run:

Tahs
Chiefs (away)
Rebels (away)
Bye
Force
Blues (away)
Brumbies
Highlanders (away)

Three kiwi sides, all away games, be an optimisitic fan that expects a win.

Also 4 derbies, 3 at home, be disappointing if they don't at least win 3 of those.
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
On second thoughts, with the state of the Aus teams not even sure a finals berth can be considered enough. It is hardly the hallmark of a successful season when one team is garunteed a spot and it can be done with 0 wins against NZ teams. Next season with an expanding finals it should be even easier to qualify.
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
I sometimes despair that people here fail completely to understand the commercial prerequisites to a sports code franchise just surviving, let alone prospering.

Most professional sports teams require good performances to profit (performance obviously creates attention and an engaged fan base). Consistency of personal is a potential path to good performances (particularly when that personal is young/new). This is backed by plenty of data points, one example being those produced by GainLine Analytics.

I personally 'despair' that people think it's acceptable to talk down to others than have differing opinions, and act like there's not a shred of logic behind their views purely because they disagree.
 

The torpedo

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Very amusing 'Stiles deserves' - and the QRU's fragile finances, badly declining crowds, anxious sponsors and all that is required for the QRU to avert yet another ARU bail-out, that can just wait through 2019 for Stiles and his 'development program' to possibly bear fruit can it?

I sometimes despair that people here fail completely to understand the commercial prerequisites to a sports code franchise just surviving, let alone prospering.

Der - you need 'success on the field', 'wins', 'victories at home', 'reasonably fan-engaging style of play', a 'few star players'.

(Also, just btw, the 'Reds are in flux' line has been trotted out for them since 2013.)

One would be a fool if they think there is a chance Stiles gets the chop after this year
 

Scoey

Tony Shaw (54)
Very amusing 'Stiles deserves' - and the QRU's fragile finances, badly declining crowds, anxious sponsors and all that is required for the QRU to avert yet another ARU bail-out, that can just wait through 2019 for Stiles and his 'development program' to possibly bear fruit can it?

I sometimes despair that people here fail completely to understand the commercial prerequisites to a sports code franchise just surviving, let alone prospering.

Der - you need 'success on the field', 'wins', 'victories at home', 'reasonably fan-engaging style of play', a 'few star players'.

So what's your solution then? How do you propose we get the success on the field and the fan engaging style of play? Just bin Stiles and start again? That will do it?

Don't take this post as some sort of unwavering support for Stiles or unconditional approval for his appointment either. He's the coach now whether you or I like it or not. How do we turn it around? 2019 might be a bit much but I certainly think that a new coach brought in after the RG era needs more than 1 season (or half a season if you read some posters) to get the Reds consistently hitting your KPI's you listed above.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
So what's your solution then? How do you propose we get the success on the field and the fan engaging style of play? Just bin Stiles and start again? That will do it?

Don't take this post as some sort of unwavering support for Stiles or unconditional approval for his appointment either. He's the coach now whether you or I like it or not. How do we turn it around? 2019 might be a bit much but I certainly think that a new coach brought in after the RG era needs more than 1 season (or half a season if you read some posters) to get the Reds consistently hitting your KPI's you listed above.

No foe like an old foe :).

My record on this and other matters is clear: I said at the time re 2015's pompously titled QRU/ARU 'in depth review of the QRU's HPU etc' that the whole process was laughable and inept (RG was reappointed soon after this 'review'), and I said that when Stiles was finally appointed HC in 2016, and, worse, then local QRU rugby mates and utter greenhorns were given all the Assistant Coach positions, this in aggregate was a very, very high-risk recipe (a) to disastrously repeat the type of QRU cultural mindset re coach choices that appointed RG in 2012 and (b) more importantly, to ensure the Reds stayed in debacle-mode in w-l % and related output KPIs throughout 2017.

Stiles has proven very little so far. His HC record is rather like the team's; some nice occasional flourishes of skill and intensity are promptly ruined by constant reversions to ill-discipline, poor skills, and lowered concentration and all-of-80 endurance. The Sharks win was one missed kick by Lambie and we cannot consider the Kings a sensible baseline for a proper team skills/team success assessment.

It's a mark of how far have fallen posters here's expectations and general standards of required performance that we see indulgent excuses of 'team in flux as predicted', 'development program underway', 'takes a sustained period to get results and we need patience', and so on.

We have become the ultimate forgivers.

Yet, as I have said elsewhere, all the compelling and most relevant evidence re the matter of how ultimately successful Super XX HCs get results is that such HCs (White, Link, Cheika) created relatively immediate and obvious improvement in w-l rate, team skills, discipline, morale, coherence of attack and defence etc all typically within about 6-8 rounds of their first Super season in charge.

This clearly improved core platform later became the basis of very significant evolving improvement in their respective Year Twos, but the key was the positive evidence was very clearly there in their Year Ones. And let us recall as well: their respective teams were rabbles in the year preceding their appointments as HC, just as were the Reds a rabble for all 2016 (with, btw, Stiles as co-HC for much of that period).

This has not happened with Stiles. Perhaps it soon will and I sincerely hope it does. But as yet I see very few credible, sustained, positive leading indicators that he will be a successful-enough Reds HC.

Turning to what should be done, I would advocate that by round 11-12 a rigorous, independent assessment by parties acting for but outside the QRU is made of Stiles' performance, coupled with confidential, independent discussions with all squad members re same, and a decision is made then as to whether there exists enough solid, credible, considered evidence that he (and the Assistants) be retained for 2018. If not, he should be thereupon replaced and a _genuine_ international search take place in mid-2017 for his replacement.

An obvious factor in all this, and certainly one influencing my opinions as above, is that the QRU has zero time to waste. All its key commercial KPIs are in ski-slope mode and seasoned parties therein will surely know that they must correct these trends very soon or risk another financial crisis, but this time with the ARU's bail-out ability far more questionable and uncertain.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Most professional sports teams require good performances to profit (performance obviously creates attention and an engaged fan base). Consistency of personal is a potential path to good performances (particularly when that personal is young/new). This is backed by plenty of data points, one example being those produced by GainLine Analytics.

I personally 'despair' that people think it's acceptable to talk down to others than have differing opinions, and act like there's not a shred of logic behind their views purely because they disagree.

I am sorry, but I do not think there was/is a shred of well-considered logic behind your notion of 'Stiles deserves........' line of argument as you put and expanded it.

I consider that inferred perspective is excessively indulgent and overly generous given past evidence of such performance trends and further evidence re how our few genuinely successful Super HCs in recent years have gone about their business and the way they have quite rapidly effected clear team improvement.
 

dru

David Wilson (68)
So what's your solution then? How do you propose we get the success on the field and the fan engaging style of play? Just bin Stiles and start again? That will do it?

Don't take this post as some sort of unwavering support for Stiles or unconditional approval for his appointment either. He's the coach now whether you or I like it or not. How do we turn it around? 2019 might be a bit much but I certainly think that a new coach brought in after the RG era needs more than 1 season (or half a season if you read some posters) to get the Reds consistently hitting your KPI's you listed above.


None of that stops us rueing the missed opportunity. Most of us found the last Ballymore Car Park search to be disappointing. I like Stilews, but I've had enough of "nice blokes" as Reds HC. He's just too green.

What do you do at this stage? I'd say back the man but look for better experience in his two key assistants.

BTW what happened to the "Head of Rugby" thing - Herbert. Is that role still there and who fills it?
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
I am sorry, but I do not think there was/is a shred of well-considered logic behind your notion of 'Stiles deserves....' line of argument as you put and expanded it.

I consider that inferred perspective is excessively indulgent and overly generous given past evidence of such performance trends and further evidence re how our few genuinely successful Super HCs in recent years have gone about their business and the way they have quite rapidly effected clear team improvement.

I literally cited a company that exists on the proof that consistency in talent leads to performance outcomes (which we both agree leads to consumer engagement and, more than likely, profits). You can tell me there's no logic there because it isn't your own, or you can be an adult and realise otherwise.

Every coach reset is a dice roll, even Mckenzie and Chieka took until their 2nd year (even Foley had a good year when given time). If you keep firing guys you'll more than likely find yourself in the same position in a year's time, wondering if you should fire the next guy. If you don't, you might be in a better situation. Not certainly, but at least maybe.

Also, are you aware 'excessively indulgent' and 'overly generous' mean the same thing? I know your type - flowery and wordy posts that refuse to even entertain the merits of the options of others.

I think you're both excessively indulgent and overly generous to the merits of your opinion.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
^^^its not really a reset when the no 2 gets promoted.
They needed fresh blood in the joint to turn the culture around.
How can the no 2 do a 180 on how some things were done/tolerated in the previous couple of years.
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
^^^its not really a reset when the no 2 gets promoted.
They needed fresh blood in the joint to turn the culture around.
How can the no 2 do a 180 on how some things were done/tolerated in the previous couple of years.

I see what you mean, but I think it's circumstantial.

For example, all and sundry would say that Wessels (former assistant) has driven cultural change at the Force. You can also see the new blood Stiles has brought into the match day squad, as an example of change.

I think it depends on the assistant coach, what his role was as an assistant, and how much he was buying into what the organisation was doing overall.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
That's a fair point, although with the Force it was an anyone but Foley scenario.

My observation from afar was that Graham was more of a consensus guy,and if so, then his assistants also have to bear responsibility for the mess.
 

Thinker

Darby Loudon (17)
The difference between the Force and the Reds are the assistants. The Force went and got some guys with runs on the board as assistants (though I wouldn't count Berne) whereas we signed, however, would work for the least amount of money.

The needing time things is not quite accurate. Link finished 5th in his first year at the Reds with a team he had no say in.

In fact in Super Rugby history if you finish in the bottom third in your first year, 91% of the time you don't make the finals ever. Eddie is the only coach to do so who had any real success, the others who did were lucky.

There is a very strong argument to be made that if a Head Coach is fired (not quits or promoted, fired) then it should be impossible for the assistants to stay on.
 

Happy to Chat

Nev Cottrell (35)
Why the fuck do the Reds resort to kicking the ball and possession away in the second half? Why can't they just run back on after half time and do the same as they did in the first half??


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Sword of Justice

Arch Winning (36)
The factor that we were all excited about at the beginning of the season has been our down fall this year.

I vividly remember thinking, "with a roster like that we will beat every other Australian team".

But, at the end of the day we rely on 2 or 3 of our big names to carry us and the rest of the squad just doesn't have the depth or the experience.

It's a team game FFS.

During the last 5 years the most successful team in the AFL has been the Hawks and they have a roster where most of the squad are on the same salary which means they have had incredible depth. I'm thinking a similar approach is needed here.
 

The sage

Vay Wilson (31)
Why the fuck do the Reds resort to kicking the ball and possession away in the second half? Why can't they just run back on after half time and do the same as they did in the first half??


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Because Quade is not in position and even when he is he doesn't know what to do; next best thing kick the ball away with half hearted chasing


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The sage

Vay Wilson (31)
The factor that we were all excited about at the beginning of the season has been our down fall this year.

I vividly remember thinking, "with a roster like that we will beat every other Australian team".

But, at the end of the day we rely on 2 or 3 of our big names to carry us and the rest of the squad just doesn't have the depth or the experience.

It's a team game FFS.

During the last 5 years the most successful team in the AFL has been the Hawks and they have a roster where most of the squad are on the same salary which means they have had incredible depth. I'm thinking a similar approach is needed here.

How about not paying them till they win;

Consistently!

Wouldn't feed them!

How about all the people out there that almost worship the ground they walk on quit it for a while until these ill disciplined bunch actually do something of note.


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