Reds 2017

[Scrubber2050]

Redshappy, I know you love your conspiracy theory of organisational malaise.

But there's another potential reason.

Super Rugby Assistant Coaches don't get paid a lot. Take a look at Sean Hedger leaving the Rebels to coach Bond Uni.

I doubt you are attracting any overseas based options to come back as an assistant. In fact most made their name as an assistant and that level and moved on for money seemingly.

That basically leaves you up and comers unless you are willing to pay over market rates and I don't think we are at all in a financial position to do so. And then for any interstate up and comers, they need to be willing to relocate to Brisbane for the job.

To me it's a fucking dud team. But I'm not certain the the Reds ignored a bunch of interested parties to pick up local guys. I think it's more likely they were all that were interested.

I don't know what you consider "a lot"

Hedge left the Rebels and scored a great job coaching a Prems team on about $200,000.

I wouldn't have thought Assistants would be on a wicket anywhere near that figure

 

[Train Without a Station]

That's my point Scrubber.

I'm sure the money was a significant factor in Hedger's decision. And it shows where Super Rugby Assistant Coach salaries probably sit.

 

[Scrubber2050]

That's my point Scrubber.

I'm sure the money was a significant factor in Hedger's decision. And it shows where Super Rugby Assistant Coach salaries probably sit.

I also think he thought he'd be a real chance (when he came up here) of coaching one of Queensland's NRC teams to further promote his coaching resume for higher honours.

That, however, failed to materialise

 

[Train Without a Station]

Amirite, I have assumed that the Rebels at least intended to keep Hedger on the basis that they made him Head Coach of the Rising.

 

[amirite]

Amirite, I have assumed that the Rebels at least intended to keep Hedger on the basis that they made him Head Coach of the Rising.

Yes, but stranger things have happened. I always thought it was confusing.

I also think he thought he'd be a real chance (when he came up here) of coaching one of Queensland's NRC teams to further promote his coaching resume for higher honours.

That, however, failed to materialise

I wonder why, he's shown he could be successful.

 

[dru]

IMO the Force have handles the Assistants better, but I'm not ready to dummy spit. I might have prefered an international reputation at HC with these guys, or perhaps some international experience to assist Nick, but I'm not ready to dummy spit.

We have, or at least I have, spoken about a need for the ARU to be developing pathways for coaching as well as players.

A quick search shows Jason Brewer (article dated 8.5.15) "ARU Pathways - Coaching" talking through methodology, the u20's envirnoment and the building of up and coming coaches including Shane Arnold.

GPS Premier Colts HC 2010, 2011 Grand Ginal Winner 2010.
GPS Premier HC 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015.
Was also signed for 2016, presume that is now cancelled.

Has worked in the coaching of Aus u20 for much of that time.

Was the NRC Brisbane City "skills coach" 2015, existing relationship with Styles.
EDIT: error/cross over here, he wasnt involved with NRC Qld Country 2016.

I found one coaching seminar he assisted (2015), responsible for the module "Attacking Principals"

In his time at GPS he has brought through (coached anyway, at Club level) Quade Cooper, more recently Karevi and Perese. No doubt there are others. Premier connections pretty good, and add in his time with Aus u20.

In terms of dealing with local Australian pathways for coaches, this bloke has an OK CV.

 

[gel]

Congratulations to all the guys who have been appointed. I am sure they will do their best. I really hope they succeed.

But:

I would have liked to have seen at least one of the guys in the coaching setup be both experienced *and* successful at this level.

Poor coaching can undo the best recruitment efforts - 2015 proved that without any shadow of a doubt.

These guys may have a ton of potential as coaches (I have no idea, frankly), but it would be a miracle if they were to achieve greater than 30% wins even with a decent team sheet just by virtue of all of them learning the ropes at this level.

I hope I am wrong. Sports is a funny game.

By the way, who's the skills coach for the reds this year? Is there anyone dedicated to mentally preparing the players?

 

[Wilson]

Article mentions Byrne as being heavily involved at a skills level.

I'd also assume/hope that some of the senior players, George Smith and quade in particular, will be relied on aswell.

 

[dru]

By the way, who's the skills coach for the reds this year? Is there anyone dedicated to mentally preparing the players?

Also it would be nice to have confirmation on S&C.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Also it would be nice to have confirmation on S&C.

Is there anyone dedicated to mentally preparing the players?

Is there any reason to think that the guys from last year (Damien Marsh and Ross Chapman) wouldn't continue in their positions?

 

[dru]

Are we convinced they did well in 2016?

We were very excited about Marsh (re)joining the squad but we seemed to have a lot of injury and fitness issues. I can't recall seeing that his contract extended past 2016.

Ditto Chapman.

 

[RedsHappy]

Redshappy, I know you love your conspiracy theory of organisational malaise.

But there's another potential reason.

Super Rugby Assistant Coaches don't get paid a lot. Take a look at Sean Hedger leaving the Rebels to coach Bond Uni.

I doubt you are attracting any overseas based options to come back as an assistant. In fact most made their name as an assistant and that level and moved on for money seemingly.

That basically leaves you up and comers unless you are willing to pay over market rates and I don't think we are at all in a financial position to do so. And then for any interstate up and comers, they need to be willing to relocate to Brisbane for the job.

To me it's a fucking dud team. But I'm not certain the the Reds ignored a bunch of interested parties to pick up local guys. I think it's more likely they were all that were interested.

It's nothing to do with 'conspiracy theories'. You misinterpret me. Conspiracy implies conscious and calculated conduct. That is not what has happened at the QRU.

It's rather to do with proven yet mostly unconscious institutional inbred cultural norms and insularity and such like issues of the type that directly led to the 4-year-long RG mega-disaster and all that went it it.

These matters are not 'conspiracies' as such, rather they are unthinking patterns of learnt behaviours and prejudices that shield the entity concerned from aspects of its life that it perceives as threatening or causing of internal anxiety and which thus require real innovation and openness to new perspectives and persons to ever change. Just as happened in a crisis-led manner from 2009 when Link and Carmichael and fresh others were brought into the QRU.

None of this matters re 2017's Reds coaching group if it's not considered commercially critical or urgent for the Reds to recover their fan adherence and gate income earning power, and fast. If this is not deemed too important, we can have our 'development and learning curve for a young and inexperienced coaching group model' and aim for a serious Reds recovery on a leisurely basis over say 3-4 years out. That's certainly not a view I hold but many here clearly do.

If as you say the issue is 'we can only hire the cheap unproven locals' as Reds ACs, then I think that is a very serious 'penny wise, pound foolish' type of mistake on the part of the QRU.

The calibre of a Super coaching team is simply crucial to a modern rugby team's ability to compete and this is three times as true in 2017 as it was in 2010-11 as we now have a far higher standard of NZ and even local Super teams to compete with and we have to beat many of them if we have any hope of getting into the top 4 in the S18 in 2017 (or any other year).

And it's not absolute cost constraints within the QRU, if it was the comparatively small QRU would not have no less than 3, yes 3, people in its 'media and communications' team, see:
http://www.redsrugby.com.au/AboutUs/MediaCentre.aspx .

I run companies myself, that is just a laughable headcount extravagance for an organisation of this size and especially so for an organisation that, according to you, simply cannot afford internationally qualified and proven Reds coaches that operate at the very centre of an RU's commercial, fan and sponsorship viability

If it's all so hard and seriously cost-constrained such that only existing unproven (at this level) aspirant locals could be found, how on earth did Link assemble a broad and deep Reds coaching group in 2010 that spanned from Alec Evans to 'Chook' Fowler and brought numerous ACs in from other parts. The QRU's finances were then in far worse condition than 2016's when Link created this Reds coaching group in 2010. (Further, there is absolutely no doubt that this calibre of total coaching resource contributed massively to our golden period of 2010-12.)

 

[mst]

Personally I welcome the appointment of the Reds rookie assistants as a breath of fresh air and a nice show of confidence and bravery. Stiles knows it will have direct impact on his record so behind the scene they must have weighed up the gamble.

It brings in fresh. uncontaminated ideas, perspectives, philosophies and breaks the shackles of the old ways. This is evolution and even if it works in part it is a big step forward and a huge positive. Out with the old bad habits we loath week in week out!

It also puts a young team on the same footing as young developing coaches which could result in some very good cohesion and a fanatic culture.

I hope the Reds go really well this year!

 

[RugbyReg]

I don't think 2010 Matt Taylor and Jim McKay would have cost much at all. Evans is available at all times, he just needs to be asked. I have no doubt Stiles will call him in if Alec's health is up to it. They have a good connection.
Chook was a contractor and not full time. They managed.

This group, with the ARU support, have a good shot at that too. Only difference obviously being the difference of where Stiles is with his career and Link was with his.

 

[Thinker]

Will certainly be an interesting experiment. Arguably the most experienced squad in Oz and the least experienced/qualified coaching staff.

They have been grooming Gilmore for a couple years, so I guess it will make the next worldwide search even more time efficient.

Would have been nice, as a fan, for the organisation to take this whole mess as a chance to say "sorry about RG, sorry that we let the personal interest of board members almost destroy the organisation, we'll do this one properly". But this is the Reds.

In a competition that doesn't have defence Gilmore lead Country's defence to dead last, 12% worse than their nearest rival. Last year as head coach he was much better leading them to 2nd last on the table.

 

[Train Without a Station]

RH, how was it possible?

Probably luck.

Matt Taylor has no recorded coaching experience I can find anywhere prior to his time at the Reds. Evans retired at the end of his tenure, but had bounced around premier clubs before coming to the Reds after a great deal of coaching experience.

Not sure about Fowler but I recall he was located in Brisbane at the time.

McKay had no top level experience. His last two appointments were the Leicester Academy coach (So no different to one of the current appointments) and Head Coach of Cornish Pirates when they were in National One and the Henley Hawks at the same level before that.

With the exception of Evans and Fowler which were probably more luck than anything, the rest of the support team in 2011 didn't have glowing resumes really.

 

[TOCC]

Are we convinced they did well in 2016?

We were very excited about Marsh (re)joining the squad but we seemed to have a lot of injury and fitness issues. I can't recall seeing that his contract extended past 2016.

Ditto Chapman.

He did 100% better then the 2015 season, Reds actually had comparatively low number of injuries in 2016.. S&C isn't an issue IMO

 

[NTT]

I don't know what you consider "a lot"

Hedge left the Rebels and scored a great job coaching a Prems team on about $200,000.

I wouldn't have thought Assistants would be on a wicket anywhere near that figure

Wow, if your club has $200 000 to spend on a coach then i really don't see the argument for more funding directly to Premier Grade clubs. I mean thats more than some WA Premier Grade clubs turnover for the whole year. It also further enhances Mr Pulvers argument that Clubs could use their money better.

$200 000 could pay the rego fees of 1000 juniors for example.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Taylor only had First XV and Reds Academy experience and a truckload of enthusiasm.

I think the senior guys in the playing squad, being Slipper, Simmons, Douglas, Smith, Houston, Quade, Frisby, Higgers, Kerevi and yep I even throw in Moore, will run a lot of the training. The younger more inexperienced lads will learn off those senior guys to a great extent.

I really would think that the Attack Coach and Quade will work very closely together.

 

[eldiablo]

Wow, if your club has $200 000 to spend on a coach then i really don't see the argument for more funding directly to Premier Grade clubs. I mean thats more than some WA Premier Grade clubs turnover for the whole year. It also further enhances Mr Pulvers argument that Clubs could use their money better.

$200 000 could pay the rego fees of 1000 juniors for example.

I could be wrong, but I think Gold Coast are a little bit different in that their funding comes from the university as opposed to other avenues the suburban clubs like wests, gps etc get theirs. The Dean for Bond Uni is all about his rugby.


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