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Reds 2014

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FairWeatherAussie

Ted Fahey (11)
Re: Harris.

Harris looked like he was following the Tomane path of trying to have a hundred percent error rate. Briefly in the middle he managed a few plays without error, but then continued his 'mare for the rest of the game.

That said, he still looked like the a Reds strongest mid-fielder. When not dropping the ball or turning it over, he ran very, very good lines, off'd defenders and was reasonable in defense himself.
 

FairWeatherAussie

Ted Fahey (11)
Re: Toua

It's just to early to say. He's obviously talented. But is one obvious weak link in the Reds that will be exploited. Last year, or even a few months ago, I'd have said the same about CFS. But he has grown and matured, and seems to have more awareness. He's not near his potential nor our public hopes, and may never get even close to them. But he has shown thIs year he can improve, which is the most important thing. And the same goes for Toua, if he can follow the same path and improve, step by step, reduce his errors, he has the potential to become a very good player. And If not, he'll just be one of many.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Agreed CFS had cemented the 13.

Toua is a real liability at the moment - some of his errors are just so costly. Poor kicking, bad decisions, dropped balls. You can see the potential, but unless he can temper the mistakes he won't make it at this level, and he must be nearing his last chance.

Who would be the next cab off the rank? The only other fullbacks are youngsters - Placid, JJ. If JOC (James O'Connor) does return (which is something to be scared of currently), you'd expect it'd be at fullback.

I fail to see how we'll challenge for the S15 title without a more consistent and less error-prone 15 than is the case today. Let's hopes Toua rapidly matures and settles in the role if RG is to keep him there, but that call looks riskier with each round.

I would like to see what follows, at least for one or two games. I suggest this in part as I categorically do not share the view of many Reds posters that generally, including the 15 point (and 15 expensive penalties conceded) loss to the Sharks, the Reds are 'going OK' and showing satisfactory 2014 progress. I think we very soon risk losing too many games against the top teams (and thus falling too far down the table) to have any credible chance of winning the comp this year (which is avowedly my goal for the Reds every year, and to win the comp you typically must lose no more than 4 games and ideally gain a home Final). So I think the time for considered change to our backs structure is soon warranted:

- Toua to 11. Is not Shipperley proving a serious disappointment after much early promise? He runs hard and so on, but now so rarely breaks through for penetrating long runs and darting combinations in attack with other backs that continue on to tries. For me, Toua today looks so much more a potentially potent winger than a 15, and way more potent than Shipperley on present form. Turner is generally showing good form, but I prefer the 'trade' of him at 15 and Toua at 11.

- Placid to the bench to be experimented with at 15 for say the last 20 mins when/if we are solidly ahead in a match and he represents a worthwhile risk/reward balance in that situation. Yes, he's young, but in the recent Reds A matches I've seen, he's been very good and looks like solid S15 material. Placid can also cover wing. We need replacement contingencies at 15 and this is a sensible way to potentially gain some.

- Taps to 12. I agree with all posters re the risky oddity of playing him at 13 when he's repetitively noted he plays his best at 12 and has shone there (and only there) in recent years.

- Harris or Turner to 15. IMO, these players' skills packages and risk-reward profiles are suited to 15 specifically given Toua's real struggles there, and yet where I argue Toua will represent a far superior risk-reward profile on the wing than does the 2014 Shipperley. Davies is working out well at 14 in 2014, and so my call at 15 would, on balance, be Turner with Harris on the bench...however I have to admit that leaves us short of a solid back up kicker to QC (Quade Cooper).
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
IMHO the Sharks were better at the breakdown, but it was the ref that made them dominant in the first half some and of the second. All Coetzee had to do was touch the ball and he earnt holding on penalties, where he was supporting his own weight or instantly cleaned out was not important.

The scoreline flattered the Sharks at the end, I thought.
 

liquor box

Peter Sullivan (51)
My biggest disappointment is that we did not get the losing bonus point. A win was always going to be a stretch in SA against a great team.

As far as the season goes with the conference system I think a good trip to SA would be a win and a bonus point in the other game. This means that other Australian teams need to win both games to get ahead of us.
 

tigerland12

John Thornett (49)
The Sharks deserved the win, but were not that great.

We deserved a bonus point, but were not that great at all.

Both teams very inconsistent and all over the shop.
 

Troy

Jim Clark (26)
I fail to see how we'll challenge for the S15 title without a more consistent and less error-prone 15 than is the case today. Let's hopes Toua rapidly matures and settles in the role if RG is to keep him there, but that call looks riskier with each round.

I would like to see what follows, at least for one or two games. I suggest this in part as I categorically do not share the view of many Reds posters that generally, including the 15 point (and 15 expensive penalties conceded) loss to the Sharks, the Reds are 'going OK' and showing satisfactory 2014 progress. I think we very soon risk losing too many games against the top teams (and thus falling too far down the table) to have any credible chance of winning the comp this year (which is avowedly my goal for the Reds every year, and to win the comp you typically must lose no more than 4 games and ideally gain a home Final). So I think the time for considered change to our backs structure is soon warranted:

- Toua to 11. Is not Shipperley proving a serious disappointment after much early promise? He runs hard and so on, but now so rarely breaks through for penetrating long runs and darting combinations in attack with other backs that continue on to tries. For me, Toua today looks so much more a potentially potent winger than a 15, and way more potent than Shipperley on present form. Turner is generally showing good form, but I prefer the 'trade' of him at 15 and Toua at 11.

- Placid to the bench to be experimented with at 15 for say the last 20 mins when/if we are solidly ahead in a match and he represents a worthwhile risk/reward balance in that situation. Yes, he's young, but in the recent Reds A matches I've seen, he's been very good and looks like solid S15 material. Placid can also cover wing. We need replacement contingencies at 15 and this is a sensible way to potentially gain some.

- Taps to 12. I agree with all posters re the risky oddity of playing him at 13 when he's repetitively noted he plays his best at 12 and has shone there (and only there) in recent years.

- Harris or Turner to 15. IMO, these players' skills packages and risk-reward profiles are suited to 15 specifically given Toua's real struggles there, and yet where I argue Toua will represent a far superior risk-reward profile on the wing than does the 2014 Shipperley. Davies is working out well at 14 in 2014, and so my call at 15 would, on balance, be Turner with Harris on the bench.however I have to admit that leaves us short of a solid back up kicker to QC (Quade Cooper).



Maybe you should change your name to Reds-UN-Happy?
 
T

Tip

Guest
I've got this horrible feeling that we're in for a winless tour of SA if we persist with a fullback who can't kick or hold the ball in contact.


I have never felt so bad being right.

Well, half right, considering there's still another game to come.
 

EatSleepDrinkRuck

Larry Dwyer (12)
Hey guys, here's a crazy notion - The Reds don't need to win every game.

I had this revelation today while trying to think of a replacement for Toua at fullback and realising there isn't one.

If we persist with him and allow him to grow towards his potential, even if it costs us a game or two or more, the Reds could end up with an amazing 15 without the need to clone Folau. A reliable 15 for next season is worth a game or two this year.

Likewise, the forward pack still has room to grow. I'll be the first to admit to bitching about their lack of grunt but the reality is that with many relatively younger guys (admittedly they're no rookies) making up the core of the pack, they still have more experience to gain.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be talking about how to improve, just wanted to share that thought which made me feel rather Zen about the Reds this year.
 
T

Tip

Guest
Perhaps Toua use the same lesson Tony McGahan used on Bryce Hegarty for Rebels v Force. Leave him on the bench for 60 minutes, so he can analyse the game, get him champing at the bit and see where there's opportunities to inject himself.

By rewarding mediocrity one simply only encourages mediocrity
 
T

Tip

Guest
Congratulations on tipping the Reds to lose to the equal Super Rugby favourite at a ground where the Reds have never won at in Super Rugby history.


You clearly didn't watch the game. Toua was his usual self dropping the pill in contact with it also costing us a try.

So, Congratulations to you for missing the game and the point I was making, in particular the "persist with a fullback who can't kick hold the ball in contact" bit.
 

EatSleepDrinkRuck

Larry Dwyer (12)
By rewarding mediocrity one simply only encourages mediocrity

I doubt the coaching staff are rewarding him, saying 'good job Aido - that was a marvellous drop' - they are giving him an opportunity to improve.

When he stops trying and hasn't improved by round 14, I will switch sides on this argument.
 
T

tranquility

Guest
Hey guys, here's a crazy notion - The Reds don't need to win every game.

I had this revelation today while trying to think of a replacement for Toua at fullback and realising there isn't one.

If we persist with him and allow him to grow towards his potential, even if it costs us a game or two or more, the Reds could end up with an amazing 15 without the need to clone Folau. A reliable 15 for next season is worth a game or two this year.

This is spot on, we need to persist with Toua he is beating more defenders than almost any player in the competition. He has all the tools, kicking included despite what people on here say and he just needs to find his rhythm. Dropping him now would not help his development. Added to the fact that we don't have a genuine 15, and would only be playing someone out of position at the cost of developing someone who could bed that spot down.

People have to realise that he has had 5 years of interrupted development. He is essentially playing at this level as an 19 year old, despite turning 24 this year. He really could be anything, and RG knows this, and it is why I think we will persist. Band-aids are rarely a solution.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I'm worried that we might be out of contention for the finals by that point.:(

Surely Quade defending at Fullback with Harris & Taps/FTA defending at 10&12 is better for the Reds. They won a Super Rugby title with this setup, so it shouldn't be forever canned.

That was three years ago with a number of different players in their setup.

I don't think reverting to something you haven't been practicing for a long time is that simple particularly when it relates to your defensive structure.
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
The Sharks deserved the win, but were not that great.

We deserved a bonus point, but were not that great at all.

Both teams very inconsistent and all over the shop.


This was the first Sharks game I have seen since round one. On the evidence they are not a great team with at least Brums, Tahs and Chiefs being more impressive so far. If they were not a sure thing to top the SA conference this year their finals chance would be pretty poor. Unfortunately a guaranteed home semi makes them a tough contender.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
I would persist with Aiden for another 2 weeks. That is plenty of time to assert himself in the spot. That will be 6 fixtures and 2 trials.

If you cannot make the spot your own in that time, move over and give another player the chance you have been given.

Aiden has been around for quite a while now (is this his 7th year at the Reds??) so he's about 24 and not a kid.

Everyone knows the bloke is extremely talented blah blah. Brisbane and Sydney are full of players with heaps of "potential" Trouble is replicating that onto a Super 15 rugby field
 
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EatSleepDrinkRuck

Larry Dwyer (12)
I'm worried that we might be out of contention for the finals by that point.:(

That's very true, that is the risk of persisting with him - but then we need to look at whether it is better to make the finals (with an away semi) this year or be genuine championship contenders next year. Noting that there is a very real risk that he does not improve.
 
T

tranquility

Guest
Aiden has been around for quite a while now (is this his 7th year at the Reds??) so he's about 24 and not a kid.

Everyone knows the bloke is extremely talented blah blah. Brisbane and Sydney are full of players with heaps of "potential" Trouble is replicating that onto a Super 15 rugby field

Yes mate, but he hasn't exactly played alot of football in that time due to injury. He is essentially playing from a base skill level that hasn't had much chance to improve since he was about 19 or 20.
 
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