Rebels 2014

[en_force_er]

Toby Smith is a great signing, makes up for losing out on Pauliasi Manu.

I think Manu is that kind of athletic prop that Sio is (but not as good).

But, like I said Smith is a good pick-up and hopefully PAE can get some of his athleticism onto the field and be our "Sio" because it seems like all really good sides are sporting that Super athletic front rower right now.

 

[Hawko]

He's a pretty solid player who would start in any Super Rugby XV.

He's not a Sio type dynamic prop we're seeing around right now but he makes tackles, hits rucks, and scrums well.

I know that Sio handed Tamiefuna his head on a plate and that there aren't too many THP's who want to take Sio on, but in the final the Chiefs scrum was absolutely monstered all day and it wasn't all big-T's fault. I think Toby Smith might improve the Rebel's scrum but they are coming off a very low base. IMO they will still struggle against the best Super scrummagers.

 

[Highlander35]

We still don't have a big scrummaging lock, which is almost as important as scrummaging props.

See Kepu with Douglas behind compared to Simmons, and Vunipola 2nd test compared to Vunipola in 3rd with Richie behind him.

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[KevinO]

We still don't have a big scrummaging lock, which is almost as important as scrummaging props.

See Kepu with Douglas behind compared to Simmons, and Vunipola 2nd test compared to Vunipola in 3rd with Richie behind him.

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Disagree with you there, Neville is developing into that lock for the Rebels. Difference is he has the ability to do more work around the park due to higher fitness level.

 

[Dave Beat]

Disagree with you there, Neville is developing into that lock for the Rebels. Difference is he has the ability to do more work around the park due to higher fitness level.

Agree and great having him back at the Marlins for the ride into the Semi's.

 

[oztimmay]

Agree and great having him back at the Marlins for the ride into the Semi's.

By all accounts he had a good game with the Broncos on the weekend. Hanging onto a small thread of hope he might make a repeat performance

 

[KevinO]

Agree and great having him back at the Marlins for the ride into the Semi's.

Box Hill needs all the Help they can get, sorry Oztimmy had to be said. The more Rebels players that continue to play VRU the better. In 2014 I don't think to many Rebels are going to be running around in Sydney anymore.

 

[daz]

In 2014 I don't think to many Rebels are going to be running around in Sydney anymore.

Based on what info, KevinO? Or is that more of a hopeful statement?

The Sydney club competition is far stronger than the Vic comp. For the development of the players, especially the plethora of young talent at the Rebels, I would suggest getting them into regular Sydney grade games at this time of the year is critical.

One day, hopefully, the Vic comp will stand up as a comparison, but that day isn't anywhere near.

 

[southsider]

Based on what info, KevinO? Or is that more of a hopeful statement?

The Sydney club competition is far stronger than the Vic comp. For the development of the players, especially the plethora of young talent at the Rebels, I would suggest getting them into regular Sydney grade games at this time of the year is critical.

One day, hopefully, the Vic comp will stand up as a comparison, but that day isn't anywhere near.

wouldn't you say that part of a rebel players contract is promoting the game and helping develop grass roots football? what better way to do it than playing in their premier division? The comp will develop a hell of a lot quicker with however many contracted rebel players there are playing with/against/and training in the Victorian comp

 

[daz]

wouldn't you say that part of a rebel players contract is promoting the game and helping develop grass roots football? what better way to do it than playing in their premier division? The comp will develop a hell of a lot quicker with however many contracted rebel players there are playing with/against/and training in the Victorian comp

They do. Most, if not all, of the EPS get down and dirty in the Vic comp.

All the players are attached to a school and a club. The coaching staff are always out supporting the local clubs.

And while I agree with you that putting the Rebels into the Vic comp will assist, if not accelerate the development of the comp, I personally believe the priority is the development of the player.

Happy to get Vic up and running, but not at the expense of the Rebels playing group development.

Just think about this as well: The Force have been in Perth for 8 years. How many locals have actually been signed by any S15 club? I'm not saying it won't get better, but the reality is that no S15 club in a new rugby area is going to wait a generation to have a sustainable local feeder comp.

 

[KevinO]

Rebels have made mentions to it lately on there FB page that the plan for next season is for all Rebels to play in Vic. Also have heard it from another source who has strong links with the club.

As for EPS playing in Vic, not that many have played in Vic comp on a regular basis.

Last weekend Woodward and Neville played in Vic though. Just need players to play more regularly. It makes more sense for players to play in Vic when they can go to training with the team they are going to play with rather than just fly up on the Saturday. The sooner they do what's best for Rugby on a whole in Victoria the sooner they will have greater success.

Vic rugby has improved and is a lot tighter at the top this year.

And Daz Kyle Godwin is a local Perth product.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

It takes time for the local boys to come through.

Your right about the force its taken 8 years and we are starting to see local lads coming through. Next year we will have 4 locals in the main squad (our most at one time) with another (hopefully) 2-3 in the eps.

This year we had our best showing in the u20s with 3 blokes in the final squad and another 2 in the 50.

It takes time but it will happen. Vic rugby just like wa rugby is on the up and the local boys will get there chance soon enough and the new super b will only help in our development.

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[Cat_A]

KevinO That's consistent with what I've heard about Rebels playing in Victoria next year. It will most likely apply to new contracts though - players state their clubs on the contract when they sign.

For one, the VRU now controls the Rebels. I can't imaging an employer happily releasing players to play for a different Union.


But the biggest reason is training and rehab.

The travel required to play in the Sydney comp means that players miss the Thursday afternoon session, Friday morning weights/physio/rehab, any other Friday extra skill sessions, and Sunday recovery session.

If players are injured, the Rebels medical staff only see the player on the Monday morning at the latest, which is especially problematic because for most soft-tissue injuries the first 48hrs are the most crucial. Players who are in Sydney won't be able to see their regular doctor or physio, or have access to Game Ready Ice Machines, or any of the other fun injury rehab toys.

And all of that is without looking at club nights and celebrating wins while out of town and away from the gaze of the coach and Rebels staff.


When Jake White mandated that all Brumbies play in the Canberra comp it had nothing to do with strengthening the local comp (regardless of what Brumbies PR machine told us) and everything to do with keeping players in Canberra near rehab, training and each other.

 

[oztimmay]

Box Hill needs all the Help they can get, sorry Oztimmy had to be said. The more Rebels players that continue to play VRU the better. In 2014 I don't think to many Rebels are going to be running around in Sydney anymore.

Sadly KevinO I know what you mean. Thought they may have had a chance on the weekend, pity it wasn't to be. I have look at my old boots more than once this year and wondered...comeback time? Never say never I guess.

 

[Dave Beat]

I support and watch the Rebels because of the Manly Players that have graduated to Super Rugby. I will not like the Rebels if they solely take from our nursery (Shute Shield) and don't let the players return.

Agree rugby will grow stronger down there developing the VRU, I say tongue in cheek - why don't you select your whole squad out of the VRU. I.e. You can't touch NSW, QLD, NZ, and SA players from the end of 2013, your whole squad has to be "senior rugby started in Vic". Rugby is growing stronger solely due to Rebels rugby's presence down there, I saw Junior numbers are up in Vic well done.

Having a doorway that is only one way I think may limit growth and development over time. Could it mean more Aust. players head offshore to chase the income.

I'm all for the growth of Aust. rugby, Force & Rebs were provided financial assistance to enter the Soup and were allowed additional Marquee recruits as well. Looking at rugby as a whole I think Rebels will receive a lot more support if they worked with the available nurseries -

I like a feeder club type structure, there maybe 3 or 4 feeder clubs 2 NSW & 2 QLD - just throwing it out there.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Agree rugby will grow stronger down there developing the VRU, I say tongue in cheek - why don't you select your whole squad out of the VRU. I.e. You can't touch NSW, QLD, NZ, and SA players from the end of 2013, your whole squad has to be "senior rugby started in Vic".

I understand this was tongue in cheek. However I haven't heard anybody advocating Drew Mitchell and Mitch Chapman returning to UQ, Berrick Barnes returning to GPS(?), Brenden McKibbin returning to Brothers (some may have... as a permanent return haha), etc. It works both ways.

 

[Dave Beat]

TWS, you are taking the wrong point from my post
How would it play out if the ARU took the view each state has develop their own juniors and team. I.e. you can only play for the state were you player your first senior game. Note I'm not advocating that.

I'm advocating development of Australian Rugby and if Sydney & Marquee players can assist with that I'm all for it - but lets work together with a common goal rather than a door that only goes one way.

As for;
Drew Mitchell, Mitch Chapman, Berrick Barnes, Brenden McKibbin - previous coach / recruitment impacted these players being at the Tah's. Cheik tour of Argie suggest he is looking at the Shute for Tah's growth which is good.

 

[Tex]

The provincialism of Australian rugby can be such a curse.

I've been brought up on an AFL diet so perhaps I'm ignorant to the history of the Shute Shield, but in this age the interests of a semi-professional suburban club should never trump those of the players' professional employer.

If the Rebels (and VRU) see that it's in the best interests of the players and the Dewar Shield to have the Rebels squad turning out for local teams, then that should be the end of the discussion.

 

[Dave Beat]

The provincialism of Australian rugby can be such a curse.

I've been brought up on an AFL diet so perhaps I'm ignorant to the history of the Shute Shield, but in this age the interests of a semi-professional suburban club should never trump those of the players' professional employer.

If the Rebels (and VRU) see that it's in the best interests of the players and the Dewar Shield to have the Rebels squad turning out for local teams, then that should be the end of the discussion.

Tex it's an interesting one I'm only a supporter and don't profess to have an answer that all parties will be happy with.

I believe all clubs look to nurture their grass roots, bring their players through colts, onto grade and promote them to Super Rugby provinces. This is generally all done through volunteers, the clubs hard work and for the good of Australian Rugby.

I used "Australia Rugby" as I see the "Australian Rugby Union "ARU" as a different body.

Then the Unions (AR / NSW / Q / V / ACT / WA "U" unions) step in / become involved, and that involves politics and money and for the "love of the game" gets a little distorted.

My thoughts - Through the Super Season use the player roster to support the Rebels, and Rugby - and by Rugby I mean the local comp and also possible feeder clubs that may assist with player development / recruitment going forward.

What would happen if the ARU brought in a rule that "enforced" development - you can only select players that started their senior rugby in your state. Terrible immediate impact, but maybe excellent long term impact.

Tex I don't have a solution, however I think any Sydney club that puts effort, time, and dollars into the grass roots and rugby development should be supported and encouraged to continue this.

 

[Tex]

I probably don't need to point out that i'm pretty one-eyed about developing the game in Victoria. The Rebels are a wonderful opportunity for the local comp to grow and support the national structure and I think it should be nurtured as much as possible, even if that's at the occasional expense of the Sydney/Brisbane comps.

There's no easy answer. The ARU needs to have a strong grass roots, but limiting that base to the traditional areas is too conservative in this day and age.

You don't want to spread the vegemite too thin, but at the same time it's flying a white flag if the ARU doesn't consolidate and grow the game in the AFL states.