Pacific Rugby Cup

[Bairdy]

My concern is that the Argies' Super team will look a lot like a test team if they only have one in the comp. Think it would be better if two Argy teams were included.

A valid concern but I personally would have no problem with a strong Argie team, compared with two good teams. The Waratahs are basically a test team anyway (13 capped test players in the starting XV on the weekend) so it isn't like they'd be setting a precedent.

I guess it just comes down to whether the UAR want to bite the bullet and have the talent spread across two teams to begin with, or concentrate the talent into one team and be competitive.

Now that I think about it, having two teams seems like the way to go, and would even allow for an additional fixture at home with a derby.

 

[Lindommer]

The Argies' Super team will never be their test team, there'll always be a significant number of them who'll take the euro or the pound rather than play in Argentina. Those European-based Argies will be available for the TRC as the iRB has sanctioned a test match window for them.

 

[TOCC]

A pacific island team wouldn't be about expanding into new markets, it'd be about increasing quality content in the existing markets! Especially in Australia and New Zealand. They are good to watch and people would pay to see them. This is the most important factor. Plus the population of people with Samoan, Tongan and Fijian ancestry in Auckland and Western Sydney is significant so they're not going to struggle for a fan base.

Auckland is 10 times the size of Dunedin. It could support a 2nd super rugby team. Plus having a cross town rival is actually a positive. Look at soccer in Sydney since the Wanderers were introduced. And playing some matches in Western Sydney is hardly going to eat into the Waratahs supporter or corporate base.

If both those cities have such great supporter potential, why isn't it already reflected in the current teams based there? Do you think the Tahs could afford to lose even 10% of their corporate support of crowd support to a new team given they were broke at the start of the season?

SANZAR isn't interested in putting a team into a market which doesn't tap into a larger broadcast market. If they are going to expand and dilute the product they need to justify it to the broadcasters by arguing that greater ratings will be brought in through the new team. Pacific Islands simply does not offer that.

soccer and rugby are two separate beasts, there's no point even comparing. Western Sydney alone has more soccer players then all the rugby players in NSW combined.

 

[Omar Comin']

If both those cities have such great supporter potential, why isn't it already reflected in the current teams based there? Do you think the Tahs could afford to lose even 10% of their corporate support of crowd support to a new team given they were broke at the start of the season?

SANZAR isn't interested in putting a team into a market which doesn't tap into a larger broadcast market. If they are going to expand and dilute the product they need to justify it to the broadcasters by arguing that greater ratings will be brought in through the new team. Pacific Islands simply does not offer that.

soccer and rugby are two separate beasts, there's no point even comparing. Western Sydney alone has more soccer players then all the rugby players in NSW combined.

The Tahs have very few supporters in Western Sydney. A Pacific team playing a couple of games a year at say Parramatta Stadium is not going to eat into the Waratahs anything. What they would be is a team the Waratahs could draw a crowd for.

And the Blues have plenty of latent support, they're just a bit crap at the moment. Rugby in Auckland is probably a bit more comparable to soccer in Sydney wouldn't you say? It's the biggest city in a rugby country. Having a cross town rival would be a positive for them.

How is it dilution of the product? It means that instead of having 1 super rugby match in say Auckland every 2 weeks, you could have 1 every week. Or same deal in Western Sydney if you had a team there (and I hope eventually there is a Western Sydney super rugby team). And yes they would bring in greater ratings...because there'd be more games in the right time zone featuring a team people would watch because they are entertaining.

Super rugby has hardly reached saturating point in Australia. It has the opposite problem. It is invisible a lot of the time, especially in Sydney, while the NRL has multiple games every weekend.

 

[TOCC]

The Tahs have very few supporters in Western Sydney. A Pacific team playing a couple of games a year at say Parramatta Stadium is not going to eat into the Waratahs anything. What they would be is a team the Waratahs could draw a crowd for.

That's completely subjective..
I'd be surprised if a team from the same code and same competition in the same city didn't compete for the same corporate support and fans.

And the Blues have plenty of latent support, they're just a bit crap at the moment. Rugby in Auckland is probably a bit more comparable to soccer in Sydney wouldn't you say? It's the biggest city in a rugby country. Having a cross town rival would be a positive for them.

At the moment? I haven't seen good crowds in Auckland since the King Carlos era.

The NZRU have constantly rejected super rugby expansion within New Zealand because it's already a crowded market place. A PI would be no different.

How is it dilution of the product? It means that instead of having 1 super rugby match in say Auckland every 2 weeks, you could have 1 every week. Or same deal in Western Sydney if you had a team there (and I hope eventually there is a Western Sydney super rugby team). And yes they would bring in greater ratings.because there'd be more games in the right time zone featuring a team people would watch because they are entertaining.

Dilution of the player pool and dilution by extending the season. There are plenty of players in Australia and New Zealand teams with pacific island heritage who would be targets of a new super rugby team.

Super rugby has hardly reached saturating point in Australia. It has the opposite problem. It is invisible a lot of the time, especially in Sydney, while the NRL has multiple games every weekend.

Once again that's fairly subjective, NRL has multiple games every weekend in Sydney but the best performing team for corporate support and fans in the NRL are from Brisbane where it's the sole operator.

Regardless, having more games on foxsports isn't going to solve the problem of lacking exposure.

 

[Omar Comin']

That's completely subjective..
I'd be surprised if a team from the same code and same competition in the same city didn't compete for the same corporate support and fans.

I grew up in Western Sydney. The Waratahs have very, very few fans in Western Sydney - from say Parramatta out. A lot of rugby people in Western Sydney (even the North West areas where rugby has some strength) don't like the Waratahs - they see them as a North Shore, GPS dominated team, which they are. If you go to a Waratahs match at ANZ Stadium check out how few people there are on the train platform going west after the match! Yet there's a hell of a lot of PI people that live in the west that would support a PI team for a couple of games every year. And not just PI people for that matter.

Separate point, but if positioned correctly a Western Sydney team, with an anti-Tah and everything they represent culture would do wonders for the profile of Rugby in Sydney.

Dilution of the player pool and dilution by extending the season. There are plenty of players in Australia and New Zealand teams with pacific island heritage who would be targets of a new super rugby team.

It wouldn't dilute the player pool as the players would come from the Islands. They would not be guys trying to make the Wallabies or All Blacks. The Fiji Warriors, Tonga A and Samoa A performances in the PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) show there is plenty of talent on the Islands - and you wouldn't need to pay them huge dollars. Throw in a few existing pros playing overseas (which they have to because Australia and NZ super rugby sides have no spots for PI players) and you could have a competitive side very quickly.

NRL has multiple games every weekend in Sydney but the best performing team for corporate support and fans in the NRL are from Brisbane where it's the sole operator.

Rugby League probably has too many teams in Sydney...but nevertheless it is a whole lot stronger in Sydney than in Brisbane, with teams representing all areas. It will be stronger in Brisbane once they have a 2nd team.

Regardless, having more games on foxsports isn't going to solve the problem of lacking exposure.

Pay vs Free to air broadcasting is a separate issue. If you had a game in Sydney every week you'd get more media exposure in general, which can only be good for the competition.

 

[TOCC]

Lol ok, i can see this discussion going round and round.

Let's put it this way, there has been no mention of a pacific rugby team included in expansion for a very good reason.... Japan, Argentina, USA and allegedly Singapore currently all sit above the Pacific Islands in expansions teams because they offer a healthy combination of corporate support and access to a larger broadcast market.

 

[Omar Comin']

Lol ok, i can see this discussion going round and round.

Let's put it this way, there has been no mention of a pacific rugby team included in expansion for a very good reason.. Japan, Argentina, USA and allegedly Singapore currently all sit above the Pacific Islands in expansions teams because they offer a healthy combination of corporate support and access to a larger broadcast market.

Actually the NZ super rugby coaches have advocated a PI team. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-02/nz-super15-coaches-want-pacific-island-team/4994264

I'm all for expanding into these other markets as well. But focusing purely on corporate support and new broadcast markets over quality of the product and fan support in existing markets is stupid.

Learn from history. When rugby union was near death in Australia in the 1950's it was a successful tour from Fiji that saved it. This was because people wanted to watch them play. Will people want to watch a team from Singapore? They have no rugby identity. They are far away. Will a team from Singapore bring in huge new broadcasting dollars from Asia (where rugby is a tiny sport), when all the other teams are from Australia, NZ and South Africa? Will fans of the existing teams go to watch them play Singapore? I don't know. But they'd certainly watch a PI team.

 

[TOCC]

You're missing the point, money talks and the PI don't have much of it, nor do they have sufficient means of generating it through their own means.

Japan has enormous corporate support and potential broadcast markers, Argentina has been building towards a professional setup for years, USA is a long shot but has massive economies of scale which could turn it on in a very short period.

The PI would be relying on Australia which had 4 super rugby teams posting losses in 2013, or NZRU who are opposed to any expansion of professional rugby on their shores due to an already hectic calendar.

You say the coaches supported the concept, well the NZRU were definitely not fans hence why the idea died a quiet death.

 

[Omar Comin']

I'm not missing the point. I just think it's a weak point. It doesn't matter that there's no money in the PI's. The reason to do it (in addition to helping rugby in the region) would be to increase the amount of quality content for the Australian and New Zealand markets without diluting the player base. Rugby administrators spend far too much time worrying about potential commercial opportunity when what they should be focused on is the product. If people aren't interested in the product the 'potential broadcast market' is irrelevant.

Again, I am all for expansion of super rugby into Asia and the Americas. I think the conference system should allow that. But there is more risk in introducing a team from Singapore, Japan or the USA than there is a PI team.

The NZRU shouldn't run a Pacific Island team. It would need to be privately owned, perhaps with some support from the PI governments and IRB.

 

[Omar Comin']

Anyway, what I would love to see is a tendering process for new super rugby sides from 2016. See what interest there is from wherever in the world. I think they should do that before agreeing on number of teams and format to take to broadcasters.

If there was no strong, sustainable bid for a PI team then forget about it...but I think there would be the potential for one.

 

[TOCC]

How is it a weak point?
You are suggesting that the performances of the PI in the Pacific Rugby Cup have justified their entry into Super Rugby, I'm pointing out that the financials of the situation don't support this.

The IRB already pours $millions in the pacific islands each year, they can't afford to prop up a profession sporting team as well.

 

[Omar Comin']

How is it a weak point?
You are suggesting that the performances of the PI in the Pacific Rugby Cup have justified their entry into Super Rugby, I'm pointing out that the financials of the situation don't support this.

The IRB already pours $millions in the pacific islands each year, they can't afford to prop up a profession sporting team as well.

You're saying the fact that the PI market is tiny means a PI team doesn't make financial sense. But the size of the PI market is irrelevant. I think as long as the team was financially sustainable it would be a good idea and help build the value of the competition (for broadcasters, sponsors etc) in Australia and NZ.

I suggested the IRB could put in some of the funding. Not a huge amount of it, but the reasons for funding would be to help develop pathways for rugby players in the Pacific. Keep in mind a PI team could have a significantly lower wage bill than the other teams. Between the PI governments, IRB and private investors with interests (or history) in the PI's, I think you could find the funding. If you couldn't, then forget about it! Why not open up a tendering process and see what interest there is? It'd be good for media interest too!

 

[TOCC]

You're saying the fact that the PI market is tiny means a PI team doesn't make financial sense. But the size of the PI market is irrelevant. I think as long as the team was financially sustainable it would be a good idea and help build the value of the competition (for broadcasters, sponsors etc) in Australia and NZ.

I suggested the IRB could put in some of the funding. Not a huge amount of it, but the reasons for funding would be to help develop pathways for rugby players in the Pacific. Keep in mind a PI team could have a significantly lower wage bill than the other teams. Between the PI governments, IRB and private investors with interests (or history) in the PI's, I think you could find the funding. If you couldn't, then forget about it! Why not open up a tendering process and see what interest there is? It'd be good for media interest too!

Do you agree that the Chiefs are entertaining to watch, that some of the New Zealand derbies are some most entertaining matches in the Super Rugby season... Why don't they rate well in Australia?

Il answer for you, because they don't have that nostalgic attachment to a region/province or city within Australia, they don't have a parochial attachment to the fans and thus they don't rate well.

Its easy to say that because Fiji, Tonga and Samoa have a reputation of playing entertaining rugby and that they will draw the ratings, but what is this based on? When the Wallabies play any of the pacific island teams the games are typically low rating ones.
There are teams which already play entertaining rugby in New Zealand and few Australians care, how are you so certain that 100'000 Australians are going to tune in each week to justify the admission of this team?...

As for costs, a low wage budget simply doesn't work, players will purely get poached by other Australian/New Zealand teams. Or alternatively, they will display form and get signed by a European team.. Even at a minimum, you are looking at costs of $10million/annum for running a Super Rugby team.. The IRB already pours in $millions each year, they won't be offsetting a professional club team.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Almost time for rule 10.

 

[TOCC]

yep im out

 

[Omar Comin']

There are teams which already play entertaining rugby in New Zealand and few Australians care, how are you so certain that 100'000 Australians are going to tune in each week to justify the admission of this team?.

Obviously no certainties. But I think they would attract good ratings in Australia when playing the Australian teams and in NZ when playing the NZ teams. Certainly more than a Singapore team. I think they'd be everyone's 2nd favourite side.

As for costs, a low wage budget simply doesn't work, players will purely get poached by other Australian/New Zealand teams. Or alternatively, they will display form and get signed by a European team.

They can't be signed by other Australian or NZ teams at the moment due to foreign player rules. If they get signed by European clubs then so be it! Another spot opens up for the next local talent. Pooling the emerging talent from Tonga, Fiji and Samoa (and the smaller islands) into one super rugby team means they would never be short of quality options.

Anyway, yeah this is going in circles. I would like to see a Pacific Island team based out of Auckland and Western Sydney and think it could work. You don't.

 

[Kruncho]

Last match of Pampas in Australia today
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