NSW AAGPS Rugby 2010

[Spewn]

They did seem like decent guys. I think the point is more about the selection process that leads to boys being seen by the state selectors - ie gps, cas, ISA, chs selectors, particularly gps.

 

[Lindommer]

1. I think Zacker is on a gap year. Watch this space.

He is. Spoke to his father last month when the Pirates Colts played at Chatswood Oval. Nick's at a school in Oxford UK.

 

[Lee Grant]

Some recent posts on GPS boys picked for NSW Schools moved to: NSW Schools - trial games and selection picks thread.

 

[AussieDominance]

Kings could have easily had Brodie Monroe at Outside Centre(who played SG Ball etc & is injury prone) instead of Ingate, who could have been shifted to the wing.

Ridicoulas amount of depth.

 

[Nanai]

Excellent points. It is a shame that selections at schoolboy level have such an influence. When the boys go to colts, those with a good schoolboy cv jump to the head of the queue. Good players languish in lower teams until their ability is recognised. Some drop out disenchanted.

I agree with your point about gps selectors. It is absurd that a few school-nominated men with their inherent biases, end up with such influence on the future careers of the boys. For example, there is an obvious bias against grammar. It takes time and observation to recognise talent. Schoolboy selection on the other hand depends on luck and visibility and the school you attend. Another example. In the gps3s match, Irons from Shore, a good toiled but nothing great, got a pilfer right in front of the gaggle of selectors This sent them into a frenzy of box ticking and jottings in their clipboards, especiaIly Ticehurst the rugby convenor from Shore. Irons was guaranteed to move forward in the selection process from that one act. I am not persuaded these men have the objectivity and knowledge to have such an important role.

There is far too much emphasis on schoolboy rugby as the proper pathway to senior representative careers. It is leading to a narrow talent pool and players giving up because it is too hard to overcome perceptions formed at schoolboy level. The selection process is about lobbying from schools, who you know and reputations formed at under ten level (eg Goodman from Barker). Wake up.

Over to you Nanai.

This was an excellent post.
You pretty much summed up everything I was attempting to say across a far greater number of words and more posts.
There is a 'glass ceiling' even at Colts level for boys who don't have CVs stacked with Schoolboy rep footy. Only a small number break the mold.
To any of the 'disenchanted' that may or may across these posts. Keep pushing. Eventually that glass ceiling'll crack and you'll get your shot.

As a final note, and I apologise that this discussion is getting very u20-ish but in New Zealand, you are ineligible to play for the u20s in your first year out of school. This means more players get capped, and even the NZ Schoolboys need to get in the thick of it and prove themselves for a year. Could be an option for the ARU? Without the 2009 Schoolboys, the u20s would've had quite a few vacant positions for outstanding Colts/Grade performers. I bet we wouldn't lose anything in quality.

 

[Lee Grant]

Spewn

Agree with Nanai - a very good post. I don't know that there is a bias against Grammar, in particular. I don't know that there is a bias against any school. What I am very sure about is that boys who play in weaker rugby schools are pushing the proverbial uphill to get noticed.

As an individual it is hard to go against the flow of nature. If your team is always getting bad pill it is hard for the guys getting it to do a lot with it. Even if you are a forward and are you are one of the guys partly responsible for getting better ball for your team it is difficult to make a difference acting alone, or virtually so.

But hypothetically, put a couple of the better lads from a weak team into a strong team and you would see them as better players than they appeared to be in the weak team. And during the season they would improve, in fact, as players playing in strong teams always do.

Everybody criticises selectors for the teams they come out with but nobody has ever offered a better way. As I understand from a couple of guys who have had the job: one was in a group of 3 picking the front rowers and another was in the backrow group, and they would look only at the 3 boys in each section. And yep they did have checklists of things to look at. There were other sections of selectors to cover a whole 15 players.

If one selector happened to have a bias towards his school, he would be balanced by the others.

I've heard all the criticisms before and many more than there is in this particular thread but I wonder what would be a better way.

PS. We don't want to hijack this thread so to have this topic continued somebody should start a thread something like "Problems with selecting school rep teams and how to solve them"


Nanai

Didn't know that Kiwi schools players couldn't play in the U20s the following year. Interesting

But to continue this point, best to mention it in the U20 thread - and yes I have been guilty too. Let's leave this thread for GPS matters.


.

 

[ftb]

Bannon's passing was indeed all over the shop, and I was expecting much much more considering the hype around him that some of the anonymous posters wrote in these parts. From what I have seen of Lethwaite in the 2 matches I've seen him, he is a very tough young boy who leads his forward pack well and keeps the opposition's halfback on their toes at all times. Very unlucky to not get selected in the top 4 halfs in GPS, perhaps he was the victim of some sort of quota the selectors did not wish to surpass.

Lewthwaite is easily the biggest and strongest of all the halfs in the gps and does have a very crisp pass. the decision of the 3 gs halfs in 2s and 3s were disgraceful. lewthwaite has played above them all in the gps trials and the 1st round. i agree, he was definnitely a victim to a quota which was not surpassed. although the decisions are final although terrible!

 

[PTB]

With the biased against Grammar and everything.You are never going to get noticed if you dont have good players in key positions. With most schools they have a good fly halfthat will make an inside look good and so on. Whereas Grammar have an alright back rower and average halfback and so how are they going to look any better without having for example a flyhalf that can catch the ball and do something with it. Also if there is no help for the flanker at the breakdown he has no chance.

 

[Nanai]

With the biased against Grammar and everything.You are never going to get noticed if you dont have good players in key positions. With most schools they have a good fly halfthat will make an inside look good and so on. Whereas Grammar have an alright back rower and average halfback and so how are they going to look any better without having for example a flyhalf that can catch the ball and do something with it. Also if there is no help for the flanker at the breakdown he has no chance.

Completely disagree.
An 'alright' back rower as you say (he's not alright either, he's exceptional) in a poor team is going to look like a superstar. Same goes for a half-back. The reason why alot of the Grammar and Shore boys got that got chosen were given an opportunity will have been because their school selector would've pushed hard for their inclusion.

Take Riverview as an example, Tim Donlan is a quality player, but he's made to look way better than (I feel) he is on the back of the fact that he's the Riverview side's go-to man. Now take Kings or Scots, with players like Dunbar, Wylie, Atkinson, Stewart, McCormack, Ingate, Horne, Mayman playing outside Lewthwaite and Stenberg.

You'll also find that the Kings and Scots schools selectors will have a hard time pushing them into the frame, no matter how much better than they are than others, when you have Grammar and Shore selectors focussing almost solely on getting their best boys in key positions into the mix. This is chiefly why Jock Merriman and Terry Jeong were included above players like Lewthwaite and Stenberg. As for Koeber from High, I imagine that High, having dropped out of First XV rugby in GPS, have also surrendered their representation within the GPS Selectors circle. I bet the selectors didn't even see one High game.

But I think the controversy is well established and things are well behind us now... It's the same story every year.

 

[Spewn]

Nanai,

I can confirm from a reliable source that one selector did in fact turn up to watch the High v Grammar trial game and that that was it for High. Hardly fair. Cannot say how many times a selector turned up for Grammar games. My guess is that most went to the other GPS trial games. I know that was the case last year. That is why I say there is a bias against Grammar. I am not sayign Grammar is riddled with talent as they obviously not. I agree entirely that decent players in bad teams can look like superstars. For example, I was told that the Grammar 10 impressed the GPS selector at the High game although nothing came of it. My other point is that once the so-called quota is filled for the token Grammar and Shore boys (this year at least) in the GPS3s, then they go no further. They are just not looked at. I have seen this happen every year for the last 3 or 4 years since Rosengreen was playing. I have watched all GPS games this year and in my opinion at least one of those quota players (Graham) played well and should not have been excluded from further opportunity. Wells was picked in GPS3s as well and he made the most of his further opportunities. I agree it is the same story every year. I just don't like how it creates the galss ceiling you have talked about.

 

[Nanai]

Yeah I don't think anybody likes it except those golden-clad boys who don't have that many lads nipping at their heels as a result.

Graham is a seriously good player. I thought he wouldn't look out of place in the NSW set up somewhere. Terry Jeong did not deserve his spot, but, again, all power to him. J Attard was another howler of a missed opportunity. Thought he might've even managed 2nds originally. The good news for Graham is that he has GPS3s on his resume now and that will at least get his toe in the door. Can't say the same for a few other boys previously mentioned.

 

[PhD96]

- Those RL kids that Phd96 refers to may or may not want to play rugby. The player drain in club rugby from u13s out restricts these lads from playing Rugby Union altogether, and because Rugby Union is largely represented in private schools, those players who come from less fortunate socio-economic backgrounds are funnelled into the league system to play their footy, because they can't go anywhere else, with the exception of those select few who may be on scholarships (for whatever reason).

The point I was trying to make here, was that NSW and the ARU have been indolent in developing Rugby programmes in schools where there is talent in abundance eg. Holy Cross Ryde, St Gregs Campbelltown, Fairfield Pats, Marist Kogarah, Christian Bros Lewisham, St Pauls Manly etc. There are brilliant athletes right throughout the middle level Catholic Schools and while many of them will have been identified by NRL clubs, the ARU could easily provide the right mix of incentives to build a Rugby culture in schools such as these. For instance, I can't believe that the re-introduction of Rugby into the Olympic programme has not been seized upon by O'Neill and the other useless .....ing bankers that seem to run this ....ing game...............er sorry, gets me going that does

 

[catchpole]

PhD96,

Your point is well made. Do you agree that John Pappahatzis appears to have carved a very successful schoolboy coaching career by cultivating the exact market you describe - Catholic Schools in Rugby League territory? He has accelerated his programs by heavy scholorship recruiting and clever positioning/marketing as evidenced at St.Edmunds, Waverley (short period only I am told) and St.Augustines.

However the second part of your equation - retention of developed talent - appears not to be living up to expectation.

Rugby League cleverly targets the base of the pyramid where more players can be contracted at relatively low salary levels, at least until those players talents are confirmed. Whereas in the ARU only a very select few are contracted to Super 14/15 franchsies straight out of school.

I agree whole heartedly that a lot more can be done by the ARU. We must get serious or continue to lose ground to all other codes. The Olympic Games should be a great drawcard.

 

[Goldenone]

This bias toward "identified" players and the lobbying from schools has been going on for years.I remember when I was at high school ( many ,many years ago over 25 in fact!) and after having played " blinders" in each match.I was told in passing,by a leather-patched tweed-coated gentleman ( too young and naive to recognise arrogance then) that even though I was a stand-out performer it was bad luck that I went to the wrong school !! ( I attended an eastern suburbs CHS school).You see it here in Qld as well,players that are in development squads seem to get the "rails run" at selection time.Oh well,such is life.I look forward to the Nationals at Ballymore.

 

[waves]

PhD96,

Your point is well made. Do you agree that John Pappahatzis appears to have carved a very successful schoolboy coaching career by cultivating the exact market you describe - Catholic Schools in Rugby League territory? He has accelerated his programs by heavy scholorship recruiting and clever positioning/marketing as evidenced at St.Edmunds, Waverley (short period only I am told) and St.Augustines.

His short reign at Waverley consisted of him coaching and luring players with Tink (Currently with the Western Force) and Morrison (NSW Schoolboy Rugby) and from memory I think won 4 CAS Premierships in a row with a number of quality players most playing League now.

Shaun Foley (Australia 7's)
Shaun MacKay (Australia 7's / Brumbies) may he Rest In Peace.
Anthony Cherrington (Sydney Roosters)
Eddie Paea (North Sydney Bears)
Alfred Paea (Gold Coast Titans)
Atelea Vea (Melbourne Storm)
Fetuli Talanoa (South Sydney Rabbitohs)
Yileen Gordon (Canterbury Bulldogs)

 

[The Chosen]

What I am intrigued about is how these scholarships are affordfed at these apparently middle -tier Catholic Schools.
None of them wjhat have affluent Old Boys groups ( certainly not like the GPS ones)
Do they `pass the plate a second time' at the local Sunday services or are the other parents paying a bit more in their School fees?

 

[PhD96]

What I am intrigued about is how these scholarships are affordfed at these apparently middle -tier Catholic Schools.
None of them wjhat have affluent Old Boys groups ( certainly not like the GPS ones)
Do they `pass the plate a second time' at the local Sunday services or are the other parents paying a bit more in their School fees?

Chosen, is that bloody stag head still at the licensed club, or have you thieving ....ards given it back to Chatswood? :0

 

[Nanai]

What makes you think that? Apparently rating a player amounts to being related to him.
I guess I fathered both Quade Cooper and Will Genia then. Oh, and Richie McCaw is my long lost nephew. My Dad's name is Rod MacQueen, I am Tim Horan's younger brother, John Eales's cousin, and I've slept with Justin Marshall's wife.
"ha ha"

 

[Nanai]

What I am intrigued about is how these scholarships are affordfed at these apparently middle -tier Catholic Schools.
None of them wjhat have affluent Old Boys groups ( certainly not like the GPS ones)
Do they `pass the plate a second time' at the local Sunday services or are the other parents paying a bit more in their School fees?

I think this more or less goes to show how minor the 'Old Boys' importing is.
They may be able to fund a small handful of players, but the Catholic schools are far more affordable. As I said before, the way clubs pass the rugby torch to private schools after 13 is a big problem, but for those kids who want to keep playing rugby and can't afford the fees, Catholic schools look like a good alternative. Combine that with a top-notch rugby program and you'll have plenty of pedigree running around.

 

[barbarian]

I think there are some rough accusations flying around this thread about GPS selection, and it needs to be acknowledged that no-one here has actualy been inside the room when the teams are picked. I happen to have spoken to many selections and can say that it is not some lobby system where each schools selector pushes for his schools players. And they arent freelance agents who go to whatever game they please. There are selectors at every GPS match.

And I think we need to step back and have a look at the GPS rep system. The point has been made here that the process of GPS selections have not changed for decades. The structure of Australian junior rep rugby has. I dont want to change the GPS system. I like it that selections arent agonised over by paid professionals for hours on end. The GPS competition is the best in Australia and should remain the centrepiece, it cant be overshadowed by who makes what rep side. Thats why I dont mind the quota picks, because it gives the Shore and Grammar (this years minnow sides) parents and boys something to watch, a reason to go to the games. We really need to step back and look at ourselves when we are debating who gets the HB spot in GPS THIRDS! Who cares?

And yes, you may say it is vital because these decisions can make or break some kids rugby career. But I dont care. GPS rugby is so much more than a platform for starting elite rugby careers. I like the amatuer, staff-driven ethos of the selection system. The fault for placing so much emphasis on schoolboy form lies with the clubs and senior teams, not the schools.