NRC Rnd 5: UC Vikings v Sydney Stars

[Cpt Crow Eater]

Yep yep.

The point I was making is that you said it was ludicrous to relocate Soup players from city to city as it was too expensive yet here is a Sydney lad relocating to Melbourne.

So I am genuinely asking where he is staying and how much it costs, and why can't this be done with the Soup players.

Hopefully if the ARU gets a plump new tv deal then these discussions about costings will be moot.

Foxtel, in all possibility may force their hand if these kind of results become the norm, especially on thursday night games.

 

[kiap]

The point I was making is that you said it was ludicrous to relocate Soup players from city to city as it was too expensive yet here is a Sydney lad relocating to Melbourne.

So I am genuinely asking where he is staying and how much it costs, and why can't this be done with the Soup players.

It's only too expensive if no one is willing to pay. Who's paying?

FWIW I dare say Chubb wouldn't be getting much out of it after cost of living other than the chance to play. He's probably in fairly cheap digs and maybe even working another job to play rugby.

But for a Super Rugby player on say $65-85k or a bit more (it's obviously not huge money for the guys who aren't the star players) - are you expecting them to move out of home for 10-12 weeks and get nothing extra?

Why would they want to move for peanuts (or be out of pocket) when they already have a pro contract? It would also likely be detrimental to that existing contract unless there is some alignment between the two organisations.

Do these players go into a hostel/student dorms/cheap flat or what? Who pays for that and their existing rent/mortgage back home - presumably gf/wife/family are still living there, and so on and so forth.

 

[Brumby Runner]

What do the Brumbies have to do with the NRC? This is my whole point, the NRC sides should be disassociated from their Super Rugby clubs.



Huh? The poor model is the linkage of the Super Rugby sides because it create inequity.

You can claim NSW needs to reduce it's teams but there's barely any Super rugby players playing for any of them already. There's other issues like Super Rugby clubs who have a big exodus and big representation in the Test side.

The Brumbies are part owners of the ACT Vikings. That is the basis of their association with the NRC side.

The Waratahs do lose a lot of their players to the Wallabies at this time of year, but so do the Brumbies. Almost an equal number in recent years, and often more.

Your solution will only pull the standard of the NRC down to the level of the existing Sydney based sides, ie Shute Shield club level. The model based on the Reds, Brumbies, Rebels and Force ownership or their respective NRC franchises raises the level of the NRC competition to almost ZSuper level. I know which sort of competition I favour.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Do you actually know? Because this is news to me, I didn't expect much but I thought they were getting about 1-2k per game.

Super contracted players don't get paid I understand. It is part of the remuneration they get for playing with the Super franchise.

 

[Jagman]

How much did the Rising defeat the eventual winners by last year? It was more wasn't it? There is a lot over reacting going on. But in the spirit of it. Please don't reduce NSW teams to 3. You get rid of the Rays you add 1 or 2 super players to the other teams. So what? Reduce the NSW teams to 2 and run them through the Waratahs. Then stack one of them and use the other for development. This will help the Tahs use the NRC for their own ends and as a bit of preseason training. A serious disadvantage they currently have compared to all the other Aus supe teams.


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[AussieDominance]

A lot of over reacting here. Let's remember Super Rugby players aren't paid to play NRC so @Brumby Runner all this talk about lowering the standard Australia only has a certain amount of professionals theres no point putting them into four NRC franchises!

For a start nine teams is a pretty small competition. I have used the example of the Big Bash many times at the start everyone was all about playing for a franchise that they weren't associated with - now they prefer to spend 8 weeks at home in a place with family (I understand there are less wages but I still think the majority if they were earning a pittance would prefer to live where they grew up) this would bring a fair few players back to the Sydney teams.

Definitely the Stars and as time goes on and the Rays, Rams & Country develop a culture I think they would come back to these sides as well.

It's a pretty clear and concise fact that the rules are designed to save costs and this means the four affiliated sides are at a huge advantage in terms of player strength due to the 16 player super rugby rule.

If they perhaps lowered it to 14 it would release 8 players on to a market and make the competition a lot closer in my opinion.

Also you have to remember a lot of the amateur players the Rays, Rams, Eagles and Stars have been exposing at this level are probably not battle hardened for this level and I remember Lee Grant making a point previously in saying that it could take 4 or 5 years to have a few NRC stalwarts without being Super Rugby players in these squads. I don't think it will get worse in the coming years I think you will see some improvement even if the rules stayed the same.

 

[Dave Beat]

The problem I see here is for some reason you think the Super Rugby sides are inherently linked to the NRC sides, that's a poor model to work off. The out of state NRC sides aren't any more entitled to the Super Rugby players any more than the NSW ones. In fact the NSW ones are more entitled to those players given they produced/developed them, getting them playing back to their roots would create more interest/tribalism too.

Minimum Super Rugby players rule. Simple.

Vikings, Rising, Spirit, City can get first pick and then they offload the others. Dargaville and Vaea were key players of the Stars and Country last year. It's just so stupid they're left to play for an already stacked team.

Example

This comp gives me more rugby to watch so i like it, it is a work in progress and things will be learnt as it develops. Imagine if the Rays had first selection of club linked players - and we didn't have an issue with players going over seas,​

​

​

Other NRC teams​

Jordy Ried.​

Luke Jones.​

Pat Leafa. - maybe maybe not​

Caderyn Neville.​

Scott Fardy.​

Josh Manrae.​

Robbie Coleman.- maybe maybe not​

Pek Cowan.​

BJ Hartman,​

Rome Vaai,​

Tank Collins,​

Dane Marakai,​

Beau Robinson,​

Will Miller,​

Nick Palmer,​

Harry Jones.​

Matt Philip​

​

Off shore - i know some will be missed here;​

Greg Petersen,​

Dave Poreki,​

Gower,​

Ward,​

Hingano,​

Sefiana,​

Matt Lucas,​

James Hilterbrand,​

Hugh Pyle,​

Elvis Taione​

​

This is simply saying things will be learnt as it develops.
I'm sure the other NSW NRC teams could do the same.
So is it the fact the NSW is to thin - or is it that NSW is propping up the other NRC teams for the good and growth of rugby?
I'm sure some Rays follows can add more names to the list

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Butler "I thought the Stars defended really well for the full 80"

I fell of my chair with laughter when butler said that

I was wondering at one stage if the stars thought they were playing touch footy as their defence was woeful. Their passing game was just as bad. The Vikings we're good but the stars were so woeful that it was a rubbish game of rugby to watch and showcase the nrc.

Worst game I have seen stars play over entire 2seasons.

 

[Brumby Jack]

Anyway, back to the game....

 

[Happy]

My man of the match was Powell. Very fast service, and wide accurate passes. Lilo really had the backline humming with the service he was getting. Iona also had a great game at 12, as did Dargaville at 14.

The Vikings pack totally dominated the Stars. Even at the end of the game when all the subs were on. The Vikings ended with their reserve front row, Smiler in at lock, and 3 flankers on at 6,7 & 8, and they still pushed the Stars scrum around.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

A lot of over reacting here. Let's remember Super Rugby players aren't paid to play NRC so @Brumby Runner all this talk about lowering the standard Australia only has a certain amount of professionals theres no point putting them into four NRC franchises!



For a start nine teams is a pretty small competition. I have used the example of the Big Bash many times at the start everyone was all about playing for a franchise that they weren't associated with - now they prefer to spend 8 weeks at home in a place with family (I understand there are less wages but I still think the majority if they were earning a pittance would prefer to live where they grew up) this would bring a fair few players back to the Sydney teams.



Definitely the Stars and as time goes on and the Rays, Rams & Country develop a culture I think they would come back to these sides as well.



It's a pretty clear and concise fact that the rules are designed to save costs and this means the four affiliated sides are at a huge advantage in terms of player strength due to the 16 player super rugby rule.



If they perhaps lowered it to 14 it would release 8 players on to a market and make the competition a lot closer in my opinion.



Also you have to remember a lot of the amateur players the Rays, Rams, Eagles and Stars have been exposing at this level are probably not battle hardened for this level and I remember Lee Grant making a point previously in saying that it could take 4 or 5 years to have a few NRC stalwarts without being Super Rugby players in these squads. I don't think it will get worse in the coming years I think you will see some improvement even if the rules stayed the same.

In fairness bit rough to put Rays in same category as they have had bugger all super rugby player representation on the field (one only from memory with Jack Dempsey) and have been competitive which shows they are playing shute shield players who could be on cusp of going to next level and claiming a super rugby contract which is what you want to see.

Rams....yes way underdone and depth at stars perhaps not so good with all the injuries as Balmain subbies hardly fall into the category of players who are ready to take next step up ie wrong partner and business model for stars

 

[Brumby Jack]

The Vikings pack totally dominated the Stars. Even at the end of the game when all the subs were on. The Vikings ended with their reserve front row, Smiler in at lock, and 3 flankers on at 6,7 & 8, and they still pushed the Stars scrum around.

It's fairly damning when you go for a lineout following a not straight call on a lineout instead of a scrum. They couldn't even try for quick ball before the hit and push came on.

 

[Brumby Jack]

Only just saw the post game interviews.

After Jarrad Butler said the Stars defended well...

 

[Brumby Runner]

It's fairly damning when you go for a lineout following a not straight call on a lineout instead of a scrum. They couldn't even try for quick ball before the hit and push came on.

By my count, there were three not straight calls made against Albert Anae (which were uncontested and arguably should have been play on) but two of the lineouts from the Stars were then stolen by the Vikings. Didn't make much difference.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ Maybe the Stars players sensed the injustice of the call (which I though was strange at the time) and "gifted" the ball back to the Vikings?

What actually constitutes a contested lineout? Is there an actual definition of this? Is 1 bloke putting his hands in the air and trying to jump all by himself a team contesting the lineout, or does a "pod/s" have to be get their jumper/s up to actually "closely" contest the jump?

 

[Johnno40]

Last nights game and score line of 76-16 does more damage to the brand of the NRC than good. People don't want to pay good money to watch a game with that big a blow.
The UC Vikings or should I say the Brumbies play the Rays next weekend and its possible that the score line good be the same.
Maybe in the 3rd year of the NRC they can use the point system for each player, something along the lines of the Shute Shield

 

[Bring Back The Ruck]

I agree with a points system in some ways, but as I have said before its really down to what you want the NRC to do for you.
The Rams use it as a showcase for non-signed members of their associated clubs and as such a tool to aid in signing new players.
The Vikings and Rising etc have no such need for this at the moment.
For me it should be about unearthing raw talent from club rugby and I dont see the point in playing a team of mostly super signed players that are starting or on the bench for most of the super season - but that is maybe because of my choice of team?

 

[Wendell]

Some interesting reading on this thread in regards to franchise aligned teams.
A lot of the Vikings players are fringe super rugby players who spend a lot of the S15 on the bench. Ala'alatoa, Abel, Anae, Makin, Enever, Powell, Iona, Ahwong, Dargaville, Taliauli. Would the Brumbies not use the NRC as a time to get minutes into these players to develop their games? Or would people prefer them to be professional trainers? These guys are the next batch of Brumbies players and they are rightly using the NRC to continue their development. Just like the Rising, Brisbane and Perth are doing.

 

[dru]

Some interesting reading on this thread in regards to franchise aligned teams.
A lot of the Vikings players are fringe super rugby players who spend a lot of the S15 on the bench. Ala'alatoa, Abel, Anae, Makin, Enever, Powell, Iona, Ahwong, Dargaville, Taliauli. Would the Brumbies not use the NRC as a time to get minutes into these players to develop their games? Or would people prefer them to be professional trainers? These guys are the next batch of Brumbies players and they are rightly using the NRC to continue their development. Just like the Rising, Brisbane and Perth are doing.

I look to where I think I'd like the NRC to go. And it's going to be a long road so understand people might see my direction as fictional. Still:

I just love the way the Reds have engaged the NRC. I see parallels to what we have seen in the NFL preseason. We got to see an extended group with opportunity for contracts. Those guys locked up to the franchise until the end of the series. Players not contracted then available elsewhere.

If each SuperRugby Franchise had at least two teams (yes a long way off) putting the EPS and hopefuls on display. The emphasis becomes testing the "2's and 3's". Let's have say 5 playing slots outside the 31 kept open for these selections. Don't make the cut then negotiate away.

Far from NSW have too many teams, the problem is what seems to be active non-engagement from the Waratahs and the NSWRU. The right number of NSW NRC teams is whatever Waratahs want, though an answer of none or one is not acceptable.

Costs aside, I see no reason that the Brumbies can't run two NRC teams. Rebels and Force will need time to be able to run two teams, but it's not a bad target.

I'm not particularly looking for levelling the playing field, just linking the two comps together better.

Cost is a natural hurdle however.

 

[kiap]

The points system makes teams weaker, right?

Does it entrench clubs fielding lesser players or playing guys out of position (e.g. Tilse in the 2nd row)?

Then it's not answer. We need these teams to get stronger.