November Tour Squad

[Scarfman]

Here's my problem with this whole set-up. Deans seems to have a bigger hardon for YOUTH than Alan Jones. But then he says that the side is not tough enough.

I mean, apart from the usual Dingo Bingo, like this:

''This is the start to the future. This group have the first opportunity to stake a claim,'' Deans said, adding that no squad member was just making up the numbers.

Meaning we picked some new blokes.

All of the 43 that have been named are there because we are considering what they offer to us. There will be elements of giving them the background because any one of them could get a call, if they are not successful in the first instance, at a later date.

Meaning we picked some new blokes and there is no chance any of them will play unless the bus crashes on the way to the game.

But then he says something sensible:

Personally, I think confidence is overrated. I think a toughness and a resilience is more important,'' he said. ''It is not about how you feel, it is about what you do.

Good point, Dingo. How tough is Dave Dennis? No idea? Want to throw him in there and see what happens? Fair enough, but it doesn't seem like the right way to build toughness. The toughest team I have ever seen is the England 2003 team. ANd they got that way from playing week in week out and having a tough-as-nails captain. Try dyeing your hair around Johnno.

If you want tough guys, great, pick 'em. But Deano is going for flair (and potential flair) over toughness in every selection decision.

SCARF OUT

 

[Lindommer]

They pick 43 and on October 9 it becomes 35. So who will be the 8?

Nick Cummins
Rob Horne
Richard Kingi
Stephen Hoiles
Ben McCalman
Dave Dennis
Salesi Ma'afu
Phil Waugh

this would be my guess.

I have a strong feeling Deans still wants to fashion the Wallabies in his image. Blokes who haven't performed (Brown, Pocock, Burgess) are still in with a show as he sees potential in them. He's also prepared to be ruthless with the old codgers and will only use them through dire necessity. This puts Baxter, Dunning, Mortlock, Sharpe and Waugh at risk. The nearly-old codgers, Elsom, Palu and Smith, should be safe as long as they're fit. As every player who gets on the plane must be.

To my eye the weaknesses in the squad are fullback, outside centre, number 8 and second row. The fullbacks are JOC (James O'Connor), Beale, Mitchell, Turner and Hynes, in that order; they're all on the plane. There are plenty of wingers so Cummins misses out, as will Horne but you never know with Mortlock, he'll probably damage something. I can't see Kingi replacing any of the other halfbacks. The backrow's interesting: what to do with Mumm, McCalman and Dennis? Sharpe's lineout skills are needed so one of the halflings and one 6 and 7 will miss out. My money's on Waugh and Hodgson. In the front row there are three nearly theres, Cowan, Kepu and Ma'afu, and two old codgers, Baxter and Dunning. One from each group will miss out, possibly Baxter and Ma'afu. Notwithstanding injuries and a blinding trial my eight are:

Cummins
Horne (would love to see him tour)
Kingi
Hodgson
Waugh
Dennis
Baxter (still too many scrum collapses)
Ma'afu

Which could be so wrong these blokes may as well pack their bags now.

 

[Spook]

Assume those players get let go, what will be the dirt track team then for the mid-weeks?

1. Cowan
2. Moore
3. Dunning
4. Mumm
5. Chisolm
6. Chapman
7. Brown
8. Holies
9. Burgess
10. Cooper
11. Hynes
12. JOC (James O'Connor)
13. Cross
14. Turner
15. Beale

16. Fitzpatrick
17. Kepu
18. Sharpe
19. Hodgson
20. Valentine
21. Ioane
22. Mitchell

 

[RugbyReg]

and let the internal trials start. Forget the paying public. Just smash each other. A test each day, or 2nd day either.

The incumbents from Welingon:

James O'Connor
Lachie Turner
Adam Ashley-Cooper
Berrick Barnes
Drew Mitchell
Matt Giteau
Will Genia
George Smith
David Pocock
Rocky Elsom
Mark Chisholm
James Horwill
Ben Alexander
Tatafu Polota-Nau
Benn Robinson

v the next off the rank:

Kurtley Beale
Digby Ione
Stirling Mortlock
Rob Horne
Peter Hynes
Quade Cooper
Luke Burgess
Wycliffe Palu
Phil Waugh
Mitchell Chapman
Dean Mumm
Nathan Sharpe
Al Baxter
Stephen Moore
Matt Dunning

benches will have to be something like:

Pek Cowan
Sekope Kepu
Ben McCalman
Richard Brown
Josh Valentine
Nick Cummins

and

Damien Fitzpatrick
Salesi Ma'afu
Matt Hodgson
Dave Dennis
Stephen Hoiles
Richard Kingi
Ryan Cross

 

[fatprop]

They pick 43 and on October 9 it becomes 35. So who will be the 8?

Nick Cummins
Rob Horne
Richard Kingi
Stephen Hoiles
Ben McCalman
Dave Dennis
Salesi Ma'afu
Phil Waugh

this would be my guess.

I have a strong feeling Deans still wants to fashion the Wallabies in his image. Blokes who haven't performed (Brown, Pocock, Burgess) are still in with a show as he sees potential in them. He's also prepared to be ruthless with the old codgers and will only use them through dire necessity. This puts Baxter, Dunning, Mortlock, Sharpe and Waugh at risk. The nearly-old codgers, Elsom, Palu and Smith, should be safe as long as they're fit. As every player who gets on the plane must be.

To my eye the weaknesses in the squad are fullback, outside centre, number 8 and second row. The fullbacks are JOC (James O'Connor), Beale, Mitchell, Turner and Hynes, in that order; they're all on the plane. There are plenty of wingers so Cummins misses out, as will Horne but you never know with Mortlock, he'll probably damage something. I can't see Kingi replacing any of the other halfbacks. The backrow's interesting: what to do with Mumm, McCalman and Dennis? Sharpe's lineout skills are needed so one of the halflings and one 6 and 7 will miss out. My money's on Waugh and Hodgson. In the front row there are three nearly theres, Cowan, Kepu and Ma'afu, and two old codgers, Baxter and Dunning. One from each group will miss out, possibly Baxter and Ma'afu. Notwithstanding injuries and a blinding trial my eight are:

Cummins
Horne (would love to see him tour)
Kingi
Hodgson
Waugh
Dennis
Baxter (still too many scrum collapses)
Ma'afu

Which could be so wrong these blokes may as well pack their bags now.

Al Baxter (NSW Waratahs),
Matt Dunning (NSW Waratahs),
Pekahou Cowan (Western Force),
Sekope Kepu (NSW Waratahs),
Salesi Ma’afu (Brumbies),
Ben Alexander (Brumbies),
Benn Robinson (NSW Waratahs),

They will take at least 5 props with Ma'afu is the least likely to tour. It will be between Kepu and Baxter for the last prop spot, Baxter being a better THP but with an average workrate. Kepu being dynamic but not great at scrum time.

 

[Ash]

I am another who is sure that Mowen is out injured with a season ending injury. He plays for Randwick - hence why he wasn't in their grand final side. I would assume that Mowen (if fit) would've been selected ahead of, say, Dennis or McCalman, but then I would've said the same of Higgenbatty too.

I think that Fatprop's 8 is a bit closer to the mark of what Deans will leave behind than Lindommer's 8, but we'll see. For the midweek games Deans may want some really fresh new blood.

 

[Biffo]

and let the internal trials start. Forget the paying public. Just smash each other. A test each day, or 2nd day either.

The incumbents from Welingon:

v the next off the rank:

The next off the rank in a canter.

 

[TheRiddler]

and let the internal trials start. Forget the paying public. Just smash each other. A test each day, or 2nd day either.

The incumbents from Welingon:

James O'Connor
Lachie Turner
Adam Ashley-Cooper
Berrick Barnes
Drew Mitchell
Matt Giteau
Will Genia
George Smith
David Pocock
Rocky Elsom
Mark Chisholm
James Horwill
Ben Alexander
Tatafu Polota-Nau
Benn Robinson

the next off the rank

Kurtley Beale
Digby Ione
Stirling Mortlock
Rob Horne
Peter Hynes
Quade Cooper
Luke Burgess
Wycliffe Palu
Phil Waugh
Mitchell Chapman
Dean Mumm
Nathan Sharpe
Al Baxter
Stephen Moore
Matt Dunning

Will probably be shot down for stating this but that doesnt look like a bad team. When you add in the bench players, we SHOULD have enough depth and competition to have a top class international outfit. So where the fuck does it all go so wrong?

 

[Biffo]

Will probably be shot down for stating this but that doesnt look like a bad team. When you add in the bench players, we SHOULD have enough depth and competition to have a top class international outfit. So where the fuck does it all go so wrong?

Problem is all inside their heads I say to you ...

Thanks to Paul Simon

 

[Spook]

I have a feeling that either Valentine and Burgess will miss out in place of Kingi and that Cross could get replaced by Horne...

 

[fatprop]

I have a feeling that either Valentine and Burgess will miss out in place of Kingi and that Cross could get replaced by Horne...

I am pretty sure last year Deans brought in a few fringe guys so he could measure them under pressure and they got use the following year.

But it is possible.

 

[waratahjesus]

cross shouldnt be there, if were going for the future cross is never going to be a long term first choice wallaby with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and mortlock as the front runners for 13 and horne the future back up.

there seems to be alot of kingi love at the moment, shame he doesnt have a full super 14 contract, guess he will be off to melbourne sooner rather than later.

would just love to see this team, whoever is in it take some risks, try some new game plans and have a go. dont care if we lose every game (would prefer if we won though) would like to see us try some tactics that suit us and not play to the team were opposing.

 

[Biffo]

I have a feeling that either Valentine and Burgess will miss out in place of Kingi and that Cross could get replaced by Horne...

I fervently hope you are right.

 

[Blue]

I have a feeling that either Valentine and Burgess will miss out in place of Kingi and that Cross could get replaced by Horne...

I fervently hope you are right.

Nah. There's too much man love for Burgess.

 

[spectator]

I have a feeling that either Valentine and Burgess will miss out in place of Kingi and that Cross could get replaced by Horne...

I fervently hope you are right.

Nah. There's too much man love for Burgess.

IMO Kingi is still a raw work in progress. The other three should go.

 

[Lee Grant]

Mowen - yeah, I forgot that he had an operation yet I think I reported it myself on the Shute Shield thread. Don't worry, this kind of thing will happen to you youngens too one day.


Lindommer - I don't think the fullbacks will be in the order you stated. If I had to bet my house on the player in the 43 man squad who would play best at fullback at Twickenham, for example, my order would be: AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Mitchell, JOC (James O'Connor), Hynes, Turner, and Beale.


This takes into account AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s reasonable performances when he has played 15 in the last 2 years though it is not his best position IMO, Mitchell's experience there for the Force, JOC (James O'Connor)'s howlers in Wellington, Hynes' good play there periodically for the Reds and notably in the RSA in 2008, Turner's lack of chances in the position and ditto for Beale.


I wrote earlier this year that the problem with picking the Rabbit for important test matches, such as 3N games, was that he had thousands of mistakes to make in his career and the pity was that there would be many more of them per game in the earlier ones. I was happy for him to start in some inbound tests to get rid of some of them from the system, and now I am content for him to start there in the dirt-track games and from the bench in any test match.


I don't think he should have started anywhere in a 3N test and thought he should have been taken off early in Wellington. I did not agree with Deans' po-faced explanation of why he was left on. Rabbit always backs himself and is probably more resilient than Deans thinks. In Dingo's defence: AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was not considered as the fullback because he was needed at 13 given the unavailability of Ioane and Mortlock and the doubt that Cross was good enough.


Dingo will take 3 scrummies on tour. Genia will be the gun; Burgess will not be discarded IMO; Kingi may be taken as a development player to come from the bench in the 2 tour games. A lot will depend on Kingi's performances within the training squad. He is a dynamite 7s player but one noticed in the U/20 games that there is too much of a 7s flavour to the recipes he cooked up. I wouldn't take him on tour.


If Kingi is good enough he will get on the park for the Reds next year. Incidentally, I don't think that Lucas did enough and before Mooney promoted Genia above him I mentioned that Genia was the real deal for the Reds, not Lucas. I wouldn't write Lucas off at the Super14 level though. Think about Cooper getting crocked.


I wouldn't be surprised if the Wallabies took 6 props on tour instead of 5, and would expect Ma'afu to miss out; in fact, I would have included young Daniel Palmer in the 43 instead of him, for development purposes. Shepherdson, who was partly responsible for the Brumbies scrum performing so well towards the end of the S14, must be shaking his head about what he has to do to get another mention; though the return of Dunning makes his omission more understandable.


But here we go again folks: talking about this player and that and agonising, in a cyber sense, about the selection or omission of players. The plain truth is that it doesn't mean beans about which player is picked compared to whether the players, and especially the forwards, compete at the breakdown for the whole match, or not.


Until we see regular sequences of mini power swarms countering opponents' swarms, the team will get crap pill at best or suffer turnover after turnover. It is no use relying on the first Aussie to the breakdown when the early arrival of the 2nd and 3rd guy, breakdown after breakdown, is even more important.


It has galled me during the 3 Bledisloe games to see a very average Kiwi side get the power hit in the rucks, time after time, and I expect the same thing in Tokyo unless it is one of the one-off exceptions. If we wimp out again I also expect people to deplore it as though they had never seen it before from us. Then they will start talking about who should be fullback or on the wing.


It is an old song I have sung in several rugby forums since the Macqueen era of players. I would not mind so much if I had not seen the Perth test this year or the Sydney Bledisloe last year or the last game at Twickenham. Had I not seen them I would know that we didn't have the players to ruck powerfully and sometimes dominantly.


But I did.


End of rant.

 

[louie]

i'm trying stay as zen as i can about all this.

i like what deans is doing. two reasons:

1) By picking club players he's (of at least trying to) showing that club rugby has it's place and isn't a waste of time. That development at a grass level can work and should be rewarded. two coming from uni shows this.

2) big squad. More to work with and more chances of him coming up with what he's looking for.

zen

 

[cyclopath]

I'm of the opinion that the cattle we have are more than capable of doing the job. If we run down the list of the starters for recent Tests, there are few who are absolute duds. Some seem to be clearly out of position. If AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is Morty's heir apparent, then he just has to play there, and sort 15 out otherwise. We need him as maybe the best in the world one day at 13, not a good filler. Smith should just be 7.
What they are not doing are the cohesive things - hitting the breakdown in numbers, numbering in defence at times, chasing other people's kicks etc...
Deans tactics have been shown up several times:-
Multiple fetchers just seems to be wrong - working 1 time out of 5 or 6 Tests = failure.
Forwards out wide in backline attacks to shore up the breakdown, shown up badly last time out.
Much of the kicking game whereby kicks are not chased aggressively - just free possession back to the oppo.
And so on.

I'm happy to see some new blood in the squad to get some experience, and maybe to get the succession planning going in some key positions. What we really need is to see good combos built, and to see players playing for each other.
I was an enthusiastic Robbie advocate when he came. I still think he can get theses guys going right, but I think he has stumbled somewhat along his way, and needs to lift his game a bit.

 

[Gagger]

Theoretically we're taking an even better "unique group" than last year, yet prospects don't feel nearly so rosy.

So as Lee said it ain't the selections.

Is it the mental attitude, coaching decisions, or both?

 

[Scotty]

Good point, Dingo. How tough is Dave Dennis? No idea? Want to throw him in there and see what happens? Fair enough, but it doesn't seem like the right way to build toughness. The toughest team I have ever seen is the England 2003 team. ANd they got that way from playing week in week out and having a tough-as-nails captain. Try dyeing your hair around Johnno.

If we are trying emulate that model then the closest fit we seem to have is Elsom as captain. I just wish he didn't get the dropsies sometimes or have the tendency to try to do too much himself (like when he is running it from the back).