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Northern Tours 2021 - NZ, SA, etc

zer0

John Thornett (49)
I hope the French play as well as they can. the more we are pushed, the more we will be forced to act on our weaknesses instead of constantly advocating a sub-optimal system. Our coaches need to be better.

Can they be better though? Nothing in Foster's coaching record suggests he should be HC above a middling Super Rugby team. Yet NZR have enabled him to fall upward right to the top. That we've ended up with Foster in a time when there's a veritable flood of top quality NZ coaches in absolutely damning for NZR. Right up there with the 2003 RWC hosting fiasco. Hopefully, like 2003, it gets sorted.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
I actually thought there was more chance with Havili, he not really good at carting it up.
Yeh scoreline did not reflect Ireland dominance and Ireland were unlucky with that disallowed try plus tactically I think they erred not taking some kickable penalties in first half but the latter is about as much fault can find with Ireland as they played a very complete game. There was lot to like about Ireland’s demolition of Japan last week but always going to reserve judgement until play top 3 side.

I think big positive for all blacks was to stay in the game with strong defence given Irish possession and quality of Ireland attack I don’t think many negatives for all blacks as just one of those days play a side that is red hot and playing a complete game like Ireland did.
 

waiopehu oldboy

George Smith (75)
I actually thought there was more chance with Havili, he not really good at carting it up.

Yeah, Havili's things are footwork & offloading in contact or just before. He's never going to beat Aki or Ringrose for pace or power.

Terrible performance from New Zealand, but it might be exactly what we need. We have been trumpeting our points and tries this year, but it's deceptive with games against Tonga Fiji and USA.

A lot of players played really poorly, and it's quite pointless running through everyone because it is the systems, systemic issues under which players underperform.

1) the first fundamental systemic issue is our defence. it seems like we defended really well on the line and kept Ireland out somehow. Absolutely not. Every tier 1 team rushes on defence, because it is the best way to defend, except New Zealand. When you don't rush what happens? You have a bollocking Irish carrier smashing into your line at full speed while you are standing still, making easy metres, no pressure on the scrumhalf, no pressure on the ball carrier. The lack of urgency in defence is what caused us to be camped on our own line in the first place, much as the goalline scramble was good.

This is a problem that has existed since Hansen, but we still defend in the same stupid manner trying to keep the line. If we don't rush, we don't win the World Cup. I think the best remedy for this is engaging John Mitchell or Joe Schmidt ( now that he's back). Becuase our defence system is poor.

2) attack. When Aaron Mauger was coach for the Crusaders, they had an incredibly moronic tactic of trying to get the ball to the wing as quickly as possible. It was a fucking disaster, and it was fucking disaster today. What's with the obsession of going wide wide wide before you even go forward. Are our wingers so much better than our opponents? Absolutely not. Look at Ireland. If you go-forward on first phase, the attack sorts itself out because one side has momentum and one has to realign. But our players have no go forward. They run or pass sideways. Remember at the start of the game simple pass barrett to ALB, who made 10m just running hard at the 10. That's it. That's all you need to do on first phase. Once you do that a few times, it opens up the kicking option.

At the end of the game, 2 attacks were abysmal. One where there 5 on 3 which ended in Sevu Reece crabbing sideways and throwing it out. It was a 5 on 3. Can someone just run straight? Zero defenders committed by attacks. Zero. Then on the next attack, it was a 4 on 3, and David Havili kicks (and kicks poorly at that) and was picked off by Hugo Keenan. Mo'unga who is such a skillful player stands far too deep for some reason of late, and then the backline just shovels it on because no seems capable of carrying it. In the NPC, Leicester Faingaanuku is carving it up running straight. He is much better in defence than Reiko. Can we have him in the AB team please? Quinn Tupeau is not yet near a finished product. But because he runs straight, can we get him to start against France at 12?

3) Leadership. While the Irish yakked non-stop and encouraged each other, Sam Whitelock self-destructed just like he did in RWC 2019. I love Sam Whitelock the player, but he was horrendous today at kick-off, lineout, and rucks. He was shite. Sam - at 20-14 with only about 11 mins left, 5m out, just having had a try ruled out, we have to go for scrum or lineout. The kick serves little purpose 6 points down.

There was an air of defeat, pressure, stress, that permeated through the team. No one to say, hey, look boys, heads up, we are the ABs, we are going to win this. Richie McCaw just had this. He always had his chest out and his drive to win and an incomparable Mana. Look at 2013 when the ABs got the penalty. McCaw's face, ok boys we are going to win now. Read had an optimistic personality that seemed to put pressure on refs. Sam Whitelock is not captain material. There was no one that gave any sort of a positive vibe to push the ABs forward, perhaps just a little from Dane Coles and TJ Perenara, but no one else. Even Retallick went into a shell. For this reason, I think Dane Coles might need to start at hooker even up till 2023. I'm not sure what Codie offers these days, but Coles has that combative spirit and you need a few of them in the team. Everyone is so placid.

4) Adapting. The LO was not working well, because it was telegraphed, the throws were poor. Part of this has to do with how much pressure the hooker is under because he can't hear the call. Then Dalton has to run forward to yell it out, by which time the clock is ticking and the hooker is now under more pressure.

Why can't you just settle on the LO call before you head to the line-out? Where is the adaptability?

The ABs had no possession in the first half. So the talk to the team should be hey, we need to keep the ball, and not follow some existing game plan that in zone A we have to kick, and in zone B we have to run this back move. Keep the ball.

5) passion. Look at James Lowe. He wanted it. So did Doris and Keenan and Sexton and Conan and Furlong and everyone. The Irish wanted it more. O'Mahoney had so many crucial plays in 2018 when they won even though he was way past his best 3 years ago! Today he's still at it; after missing on Savea, he worked his way back to winning that turnover because Havili took too long to pass, and Whitelock couldn't clear him out. That's desire. On the other hand, you have an AB team that was too mild. It didn't mean as much.

Next week, France will likely be a bigger challenge. France is better than Ireland. And they are not mucking around. They're playing most of their stars against Georgia. They will test us, especially if they load up on the big boys like Willemse Cros Alldrit to start, and have guys like Woki and Flament come off the bench.

I hope the French play as well as they can. the more we are pushed, the more we will be forced to act on our weaknesses instead of constantly advocating a sub-optimal system. Our coaches need to be better.

Agree with most if that but not wrt SW's captaincy. He was obviously unhappy with some of the officiating but so were the Irish at times (I did like it when ref shooed the water carriers off, but :)). Opting to halve the deficit by taking three was the correct call IMO: our lineout had the yips so I'm not sure we'd necessarily have won the lineout & Ireland's maul defence is as good as anyone's. Our scrum seemed to be either square but going nowhere or advancing but also wheeling - not sure if it was us or Ireland doing the wheeling but I'm not confident we'd have scored from the scrum option either. Plus AB can score from deep & have a guy who can land them from 50+ so SW would've backed his guys to do one or the other in the time remaining. That they were unable to is due to how good Ireland were, not poor captaincy.
 

waiopehu oldboy

George Smith (75)
AL-B in a sling having partially dislocated his shoulder & Beaugan working through the failed HIA protocols so neither will play v France.
 

Kevin77

Fred Wood (13)
Terrible performance from New Zealand, but it might be exactly what we need. We have been trumpeting our points and tries this year, but it's deceptive with games against Tonga Fiji and USA.

A lot of players played really poorly, and it's quite pointless running through everyone because it is the systems, systemic issues under which players underperform.

1) the first fundamental systemic issue is our defence. it seems like we defended really well on the line and kept Ireland out somehow. Absolutely not. Every tier 1 team rushes on defence, because it is the best way to defend, except New Zealand. When you don't rush what happens? You have a bollocking Irish carrier smashing into your line at full speed while you are standing still, making easy metres, no pressure on the scrumhalf, no pressure on the ball carrier. The lack of urgency in defence is what caused us to be camped on our own line in the first place, much as the goalline scramble was good.

This is a problem that has existed since Hansen, but we still defend in the same stupid manner trying to keep the line. If we don't rush, we don't win the World Cup. I think the best remedy for this is engaging John Mitchell or Joe Schmidt ( now that he's back). Becuase our defence system is poor.

2) attack. When Aaron Mauger was coach for the Crusaders, they had an incredibly moronic tactic of trying to get the ball to the wing as quickly as possible. It was a fucking disaster, and it was fucking disaster today. What's with the obsession of going wide wide wide before you even go forward. Are our wingers so much better than our opponents? Absolutely not. Look at Ireland. If you go-forward on first phase, the attack sorts itself out because one side has momentum and one has to realign. But our players have no go forward. They run or pass sideways. Remember at the start of the game simple pass barrett to ALB, who made 10m just running hard at the 10. That's it. That's all you need to do on first phase. Once you do that a few times, it opens up the kicking option.

At the end of the game, 2 attacks were abysmal. One where there 5 on 3 which ended in Sevu Reece crabbing sideways and throwing it out. It was a 5 on 3. Can someone just run straight? Zero defenders committed by attacks. Zero. Then on the next attack, it was a 4 on 3, and David Havili kicks (and kicks poorly at that) and was picked off by Hugo Keenan. Mo'unga who is such a skillful player stands far too deep for some reason of late, and then the backline just shovels it on because no seems capable of carrying it. In the NPC, Leicester Faingaanuku is carving it up running straight. He is much better in defence than Reiko. Can we have him in the AB team please? Quinn Tupeau is not yet near a finished product. But because he runs straight, can we get him to start against France at 12?

3) Leadership. While the Irish yakked non-stop and encouraged each other, Sam Whitelock self-destructed just like he did in RWC 2019. I love Sam Whitelock the player, but he was horrendous today at kick-off, lineout, and rucks. He was shite. Sam - at 20-14 with only about 11 mins left, 5m out, just having had a try ruled out, we have to go for scrum or lineout. The kick serves little purpose 6 points down.

There was an air of defeat, pressure, stress, that permeated through the team. No one to say, hey, look boys, heads up, we are the ABs, we are going to win this. Richie McCaw just had this. He always had his chest out and his drive to win and an incomparable Mana. Look at 2013 when the ABs got the penalty. McCaw's face, ok boys we are going to win now. Read had an optimistic personality that seemed to put pressure on refs. Sam Whitelock is not captain material. There was no one that gave any sort of a positive vibe to push the ABs forward, perhaps just a little from Dane Coles and TJ Perenara, but no one else. Even Retallick went into a shell. For this reason, I think Dane Coles might need to start at hooker even up till 2023. I'm not sure what Codie offers these days, but Coles has that combative spirit and you need a few of them in the team. Everyone is so placid.

4) Adapting. The LO was not working well, because it was telegraphed, the throws were poor. Part of this has to do with how much pressure the hooker is under because he can't hear the call. Then Dalton has to run forward to yell it out, by which time the clock is ticking and the hooker is now under more pressure.

Why can't you just settle on the LO call before you head to the line-out? Where is the adaptability?

The ABs had no possession in the first half. So the talk to the team should be hey, we need to keep the ball, and not follow some existing game plan that in zone A we have to kick, and in zone B we have to run this back move. Keep the ball.

5) passion. Look at James Lowe. He wanted it. So did Doris and Keenan and Sexton and Conan and Furlong and everyone. The Irish wanted it more. O'Mahoney had so many crucial plays in 2018 when they won even though he was way past his best 3 years ago! Today he's still at it; after missing on Savea, he worked his way back to winning that turnover because Havili took too long to pass, and Whitelock couldn't clear him out. That's desire. On the other hand, you have an AB team that was too mild. It didn't mean as much.

Next week, France will likely be a bigger challenge. France is better than Ireland. And they are not mucking around. They're playing most of their stars against Georgia. They will test us, especially if they load up on the big boys like Willemse Cros Alldrit to start, and have guys like Woki and Flament come off the bench.

I hope the French play as well as they can. the more we are pushed, the more we will be forced to act on our weaknesses instead of constantly advocating a sub-optimal system. Our coaches need to be better.
Really enjoyed your knowledge of the Irish players before the game. Was a relatively fair assesment.

Also enjoed reading the above. What makes me happy as an Irishman is that many of the things you're pointing out for the AB's are things we've felt in the past when losing to the All Blacks.

I don't agree that France are better than Ireland. I think they have the potential to be very good and have some serious young players but they've yet to consistently show it. This Six Nations will be really interesting.

From an Ireland point of view, I was delighted with the win but more so the performance. The challenge for us is to now take this through to a World Cup and perform when all the big guns turn up.
 

formerflanker

Ken Catchpole (46)
Whitelock's brief but very angry stare (and words perhaps) with the AR said a lot about him losing his cool and captaincy halo.
 

KiwiM

Arch Winning (36)
I think big positive for all blacks was to stay in the game with strong defence given Irish possession and quality of Ireland attack I don’t think many negatives for all blacks as just one of those days play a side that is red hot and playing a complete game like Ireland did.

The defence showed a lot of ticker in terms of scramble and volume of tackles but to me the AB defensive system is completely broken. The ABs are a very passive defence. Their defence doesn't force errors or kicks and it doesn't generate enough turnovers if a team is not chancing their arm. Ireland therefore were able to methodically control possession and force ABs to make tackle after tackle.

The AB defence has been creaky for the last 4 years since McLeod took over as defence coach - the difference is they get away with it vs teams like the Wallabies who push the envelope and give up turnover ball (intercepts, dropped offloads etc) or vs Argentina whose attack struggled to score tries against anyone in The Rugby Championship.

I have run out of patience with this coaching group - players who despite form are automatically given starts (Perenara, Taylor etc), the same attacking shape that is now utterly predictable, passive defence etc and a coaching team that is seemingly in denial as to the issues. It's also not exactly a vintage AB crop in terms of players so they can't cover for the coaching weaknesses.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
The defence showed a lot of ticker in terms of scramble and volume of tackles but to me the AB defensive system is completely broken. The ABs are a very passive defence. Their defence doesn't force errors or kicks and it doesn't generate enough turnovers if a team is not chancing their arm. Ireland therefore were able to methodically control possession and force ABs to make tackle after tackle.

The AB defence has been creaky for the last 4 years since McLeod took over as defence coach - the difference is they get away with it vs teams like the Wallabies who push the envelope and give up turnover ball (intercepts, dropped offloads etc) or vs Argentina whose attack struggled to score tries against anyone in The Rugby Championship.

I have run out of patience with this coaching group - players who despite form are automatically given starts (Perenara, Taylor etc), the same attacking shape that is now utterly predictable, passive defence etc and a coaching team that is seemingly in denial as to the issues. It's also not exactly a vintage AB crop in terms of players so they can't cover for the coaching weaknesses.
Fair enough and probably a more informed view from AB supporter like yourself as I can understand the high standards. Funny thing is when watching oz sides play kiwi sides in supper rugby it was things like speed to the breakdown and just doing things quicker that caused lot of turnovers in defence. Maybe in fairness sides like Ireland cracked this as I though there speed to the breakdown was pretty good and probably nullified kiwis usual superiority in that aspect of the game. I am probably glad we are not playing Ireland as given how Ireland hammered Japan and then how beat the ABs it could be ugly!
 

waiopehu oldboy

George Smith (75)
AB have made seven changes for France:

Jordie Barrett, Will Jordan, Rieko Ioane, Quinn Tupaea, George Bridge, Richie Mo’unga, Aaron Smith, Ardie Savea, Sam Cane, Akira Ioane, Sam Whitelock (c), Brodie Retallick, Nepo Laulala, Dane Coles, Joe Moody. Reserves: Samisoni Taukei’aho, George Bower, Ofa Tuungafasi, Tupou Vaa’i, Shannon Frizell, Brad Weber, Damian McKenzie, David Havili.

France have also made some changes incl putting Ntamack back at 10:

Melvyn Jaminet, Damian Penaud, Gael Fickou, Jonathan Danty, Gabin Villiere, Roman Ntamack, Antoine Dupont (captain); Gregory Alldritt, Anthony Jelonch, Francois Cros, Paul Willemse, Cameron Woki, Uini Atonio, Peato Mauvaka, Cyril Baille. Reserves:Gaetan Barlot, Jean-Baptiste Gros, Demba Bamba, Romain Taofifenua, Thibaud Flament, Dylan Cretin, Maxime Lucu, Matthieu Jalibert.
 
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Dan54

David Wilson (68)
Probably a couple more changes than I expected for ABs, but can understand it.TJ looking a little slow, BB was a taken with head knock, Havili has struggled a little and perhaps Reece was looking a little tired last week. Papali'i I wasn't surprised he had a big shift last week, did a lot of tackling and towards end seemed to be gettiing knocked back as he did them a sign he was worn out (and rightfully). Codie Taylor I think needs a rest too.
 

Dctarget

Tim Horan (67)
Love that Smith has been parachuted back in. I hope Dupont is at his best, bloody cracker of a match up.

France missing too many of their players for me to back them here. NZ will be smarting and France will France it up. Do not like Woki in the row, especially with Marchand out.
 

Dctarget

Tim Horan (67)
Aussie Nic Dolly makes his debut off the bench for England v South Africa:

ENGLAND TEAM​

1. Bevan Rodd
2. Jamie Blamire
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Maro Itoje
5. Jonny Hill
6. Courtney Lawes
7. Sam Underhill
8. Tom Curry
9. Ben Youngs
10. Marcus Smith
11. Jonny May
12. Manu Tuilagi
13. Henry Slade
14. Joe Marchant
15. Freddie Steward
FINISHERS
16. Nic Dolly
17. Joe Marler
18. Will Stuart
19. Charlie Ewels
20. Sam Simmonds
21. Alex Dombrandt
22. Raffi Quirke
23. Max Malins

What a bloody exciting debut. Good luck mate, only Englishman* I’ll be cheering on.
 

zer0

John Thornett (49)
I thought Weber was unavailable, hence Smith being parachuted in?

Anyway. If France play sensibly then they should be firm favourites. If they France, however, and throw it around then the AB's come right back into it to probably be favourites in that case.
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
I thought Weber was unavailable, hence Smith being parachuted in?

Anyway. If France play sensibly then they should be firm favourites. If they France, however, and throw it around then the AB's come right back into it to probably be favourites in that case.
Weber was unavailable because of HIA protocols last week, pretty sure that is the case anyway.
Anyway,I just planning my Sunday morning, do I get up at 4.15 watch the Poms/Biks live, or record that and Wallabies/Taff's game and watch them from about 6 leading into ABs/French test??
Decisions decisions, it not easy being a rugby man really!!
 

Jeffrey

Chris McKivat (8)
For the ABs, I thought the media interviews showed a hugely disappointing attitude. Moody thought the pack stood up well and everyone was sore. Moody - the pack was smoked dude. You didn't play particularly well either. The ABs were really lucky to lose by just 9. Is there genuine reflection in camp?

Foster sounded confused and confusingly optimistic about the ABs play. I'll be confident too if i'm the AB coach, but you also have the responsibility to put in place cutting edge attack and defence structures, both of which look lacking. Even our much-vaunted attack is primarily based on quick hands, turnovers, and the occasional. There's not much deception nor variation.

The ABs have simply gone with experience.
Coles is back, as is Cane. 2 captains, after a test where leadership was found wanting. Coles in particular will keep the chat up, we were deadly quiet last week. Foster has also finally realised the value of Samisoni off the bench - he's always high impact around the field, which just about compensates for his jittery lineout, especially as Codie has been super flat this year. I'm very surprised that George has been preferred to Karl at reserve loosehead; I thought Karl has been significantly better than George this year, and in the minor minutes, have probably been the best performing loosehead.

No surprises at lock. But I hope to see Retallick lift a little. I have great faith he is still a great player, but he looks off.

Loosies are interesting. Papali'i is definitely a better player than Cane at the moment; Cane look out of sorts even against the Italains, even if he improved as the match wore on. Dalton and Ethan are not ready for the brutality of the North I don't think. Dalton has coped. being quite a robust personality, but the leadership bit is important and it's a big test for Sam - he hasn't played well since 2017. Ethan has been outmuscled, which means Akira comes back in. I'm fine with Akira in most areas except his workrate. But workrate is tunable, something that can be hammered home, while natural physical talents are not. I would have loved to see Akira longer vs the Irish, but the French should be a good test. No one has really owned the 6 jersey since Kaino. I'm thinking that with every 6 so far having very obvious weaknesses, perhaps it's time to get Scott Barrett to have another go.

I intensely dislike that Foster has copped out and gone with Aaron in this game. At the WC, there will almost certainly be players missing, and I wanted to see how we cope without Aaron for just one more game. While everyone has been unimpressed with TJ, I thought he played quite well in the last game. Defensively, TJ was the only one who regularly reaped the benefits of rushing, smacking a few far behind the advantage line. His box was ok too.

At centre, as I was hoping, Quinn starts. Again, I think even foster realises he needs a 12 that runs straight. Foster talked about being pleased with David's creativity when he came on against the Irish - which is a worrying comment, probably biased by just 1 excellent run. Since Ennor was shite against Italy and ALB is out, this leaves Reiko at 13. Centres are worrying. I'm ok with ALB. And that's it. Every other centre, including Jack Goodhue worries me.

Sevu was poor against Ireland but he was also out of position. This leaves George returning. I really do not rate Geroge, and if I'm AB coach he will not be in the long-term consideration of the squad. But if Reece isn't playing and Ioane in the centres, that leaves George as wing. BTW, there are a number of wingers I think that are worth considering - Caleb and Leicester of course, on the left, and Freedom and even Bryce Heem. on the right.

With Dane, Sam W, Brodie, Sam C and Aaron, this is probably the most experienced team we can put out. It means beyond this we have few trump cards left. So we have to win.

For France, Marchand is out, so Mauvaka comes in, which leaves a very inexperienced Barlot off the bench (attack the lineout later in the game boys!). They have chosen Antonio at tighthead (a surprise). Bamba will bring impact off the bench, but with Willemse Cros, Jelonch and Alldritt it's a fairly big and robust French set-up. They will bash the ABs from the start. Any team playing Dupont will know the fringe defence better be on alert the entire game, Dupont is lightning around the ruck, and it is this threat that opens up the game for Ntmarck.

In the backline, the main talking point is Danty at 12, with Jalibert benched. In other words, only 1 playmaker - Danty is a basher, and a very good one at that. A good, if somewhat predictable challenge for Quinn. This would be such a good game to rush - Ntamarck can be rattled, and Danty's threat is best snuffed out before he gets going. Unfortunately, as we have discussed, the ABs don't rush.

France is still missing some back 3 players, but Penaud on his day can be devastating. If France pulls into the lead, I think they will have a surge of confidence which might just about power them home. But I think the experience will tell for the ABs, and we should take it by about 10 points, reasonably comfortable in the end.
 
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