Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Vai'i certainly looks to be the type of player who can play the 3rd lock.blindside flanker doesn't he?
And him being a Naki boy where I now reside has nothing to do with it!
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Northern Tours 2021 - NZ, SA, etc
- Thread starter waiopehu oldboy
- Start date
And him being a Naki boy where I now reside has nothing to do with it!
Jeffrey
Chris McKivat (8)
Just wanted to give Ardie Savea a little more acknowledgement.
He has always been outstanding in attack. First he is extremely powerful in contact, and his post-contact metres are excellent. This is really crucial because that one guy who bends the line sets the entire attack in motion. The advantage line is shifted, the momentum changes completely, more defenders are committed - it's attacking heaven. Second, he has always been very quick, so running down the tramlines he is as threatening as many backs. But he has added a subtleness to his game, little pop passes, passes off the base of rucks, and the timing and delay of passes as first receiver. Offensively, Ardie is ridiculous at the moment.
Defensively, Ardie has been a wall in the tackle. Even though he plays 8, he is often there 1 out from the ruck to absorb impact from a damaging ball runner. He hit Wyn Jones with a booster very hard in the game, Wyn is the Lions first choice loosehead. He won another clean turnover in the ruck, as he normally does. Even in a team with Papali'i and Cane, he is probably still the best turnover effector. I suspect as an 8, his tackle count and ruck-count are down significantly. But when he does, he hits them hard. Rucks might seem like a small matter but the ABs are susceptible to under-committing to rucks, and getting blown over. Work-rate is very important, which is the unseen work that donkeys like Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, and Richie McCaw did for us for so many years. If Ardie is 8, at Akira or Luke at 6, then work-rates needs to be emphasised.
If I have one criticism of Ardie, it's 2 things.
1) Tactically, he's not quite an 8 in terms of pitch coverage. He is always on the frontlines, and doesn't quite drop back for kicks, or indeed as a 2nd sweep behind the initial defensive line (he is in the defensive line most of the time).
2) The back-row has to have balance, and this includes for areas like line-outs. Line-outs are exceptionally crucial in the modern game, accounting for over 2/5s of tries. In the most critical games, failure at the lineout is catastrophic. No team that has won the WC has ever done so without a great LO. 1999, Australia's LO was excellent, even with their reserves. England's was metronomic in 2003. In 2007, everyone of the Boks back-5 was above 1.94m. In 2011, Ali was excellent and Thorn was underrated, but Read and Kaino were good. Ditto 2015, with the same backrow. And of course 2019 saw a Bok team that basically replicated 2007.
Saying this, in 2019, England beat us with a relatively short line-out. They had their 2 locks, but the backrow of Curry, Underhill, and Vunipola are not great at the line-out. Yet, even though we had Barrett at 6 and Read (who is one of the great line-out exponents) at 8, we lost the ball twice and never challenged theirs.
Ardie and Sam are both not great at the line-out (Ardie is probably slightly better). Hoskins is excellent as a line-out forward, while Shannon and Akira are both very good. Luke, Dalton, and Ethan are average. So do we have the right combination. This is especially if we go with Samisoni or Asafo off the bench. Both of them are excellent in the open, but they are not assured at lineout.
He has always been outstanding in attack. First he is extremely powerful in contact, and his post-contact metres are excellent. This is really crucial because that one guy who bends the line sets the entire attack in motion. The advantage line is shifted, the momentum changes completely, more defenders are committed - it's attacking heaven. Second, he has always been very quick, so running down the tramlines he is as threatening as many backs. But he has added a subtleness to his game, little pop passes, passes off the base of rucks, and the timing and delay of passes as first receiver. Offensively, Ardie is ridiculous at the moment.
Defensively, Ardie has been a wall in the tackle. Even though he plays 8, he is often there 1 out from the ruck to absorb impact from a damaging ball runner. He hit Wyn Jones with a booster very hard in the game, Wyn is the Lions first choice loosehead. He won another clean turnover in the ruck, as he normally does. Even in a team with Papali'i and Cane, he is probably still the best turnover effector. I suspect as an 8, his tackle count and ruck-count are down significantly. But when he does, he hits them hard. Rucks might seem like a small matter but the ABs are susceptible to under-committing to rucks, and getting blown over. Work-rate is very important, which is the unseen work that donkeys like Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, and Richie McCaw did for us for so many years. If Ardie is 8, at Akira or Luke at 6, then work-rates needs to be emphasised.
If I have one criticism of Ardie, it's 2 things.
1) Tactically, he's not quite an 8 in terms of pitch coverage. He is always on the frontlines, and doesn't quite drop back for kicks, or indeed as a 2nd sweep behind the initial defensive line (he is in the defensive line most of the time).
2) The back-row has to have balance, and this includes for areas like line-outs. Line-outs are exceptionally crucial in the modern game, accounting for over 2/5s of tries. In the most critical games, failure at the lineout is catastrophic. No team that has won the WC has ever done so without a great LO. 1999, Australia's LO was excellent, even with their reserves. England's was metronomic in 2003. In 2007, everyone of the Boks back-5 was above 1.94m. In 2011, Ali was excellent and Thorn was underrated, but Read and Kaino were good. Ditto 2015, with the same backrow. And of course 2019 saw a Bok team that basically replicated 2007.
Saying this, in 2019, England beat us with a relatively short line-out. They had their 2 locks, but the backrow of Curry, Underhill, and Vunipola are not great at the line-out. Yet, even though we had Barrett at 6 and Read (who is one of the great line-out exponents) at 8, we lost the ball twice and never challenged theirs.
Ardie and Sam are both not great at the line-out (Ardie is probably slightly better). Hoskins is excellent as a line-out forward, while Shannon and Akira are both very good. Luke, Dalton, and Ethan are average. So do we have the right combination. This is especially if we go with Samisoni or Asafo off the bench. Both of them are excellent in the open, but they are not assured at lineout.
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
Ardie has been a beast for the last couple of years and has been my favourite AB since 2019. He needs to be at 7.
He had another huge game on the weekend but I thought it looked like he mite be carrying an injury or something.
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
By the end of any games Ardie plays I think he is hurting, it's the way he plays. That's not just in tests either, Super or whatever level he plays he treats his body the same, reckon he will be a cripple by the time he 60!
Dan54
David Wilson (68)
Was interested to hear the Italian coach on tv last night ,Kieran Colt Crowley (The Kaponga Kid), he kind of indicated that defence would be worked on a bit this week. Says as a new coach he still in stage where they work out how they will play and strengths etc.
I see he living in JK's house in Italy, or 1 of his houses over there.
I see he living in JK's house in Italy, or 1 of his houses over there.
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Brumby Jack
Steve Williams (59)
Big blow for Wales with Alun-Wyn Jones, Ross Moriarty and Taulupe Faletau all out of the upcoming Tests.
Dctarget
Tim Horan (67)
Helpful for us.
Dctarget
Tim Horan (67)
France's side to take on Argentina this weekend:
Things of interest
- Very young gun Thibaud Flament starting at lock. Keep an eye on this fellow. Bit of a crazy story: used to play flyhalf, never made it in France went and played University rugby in England in the 5ths, then went to Argentina for a year in some random suburb team then went to play for London Wasps and now Toulouse all before the age of 25. 6'8 lock with the hands of a flyhalf.
- Ntamack at 12 with Jalibert at 10, double play maker almost triple with Dupont at 9. Pretty bloody exciting. Though if Argentina manage to shore up their defence, France might find themselves lacking for go forward with a small centre.
- Alldritt on the bench or not even in the 23, crazy. There were calls a year ago that he was the best complete 8 in the world and most valuable player to France. Suspect he'll wriggle his way back in.
Things of interest
- Very young gun Thibaud Flament starting at lock. Keep an eye on this fellow. Bit of a crazy story: used to play flyhalf, never made it in France went and played University rugby in England in the 5ths, then went to Argentina for a year in some random suburb team then went to play for London Wasps and now Toulouse all before the age of 25. 6'8 lock with the hands of a flyhalf.
- Ntamack at 12 with Jalibert at 10, double play maker almost triple with Dupont at 9. Pretty bloody exciting. Though if Argentina manage to shore up their defence, France might find themselves lacking for go forward with a small centre.
- Alldritt on the bench or not even in the 23, crazy. There were calls a year ago that he was the best complete 8 in the world and most valuable player to France. Suspect he'll wriggle his way back in.
waiopehu oldboy
George Smith (75)
ALL BLACKS: Damian McKenzie, Sevu Reece, Braydon Ennor, Quinn Tupaea, George Bridge, Richie Mo’unga, Brad Weber; Hoskins Sotutu, Sam Cane (capt), Luke Jacobson, Josh Lord, Tupou Vaa’i, Tyrel Lomax, Dane Coles, George Bower. Reserves: Asafo Aumua, Ethan de Groot, Ofa Tuungafasi, Sam Whitelock, Shannon Frizell, Finlay Christie, David Havili, Jordie Barrett.
AB have now scored 628 points this year, record is 644 by England in 2003 (17 matches played) Edit: now being stated as 658 by SA in 2007.
AB have now scored 628 points this year, record is 644 by England in 2003 (17 matches played) Edit: now being stated as 658 by SA in 2007.
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Hawko
Tony Shaw (54)
I know I'm a broken record, but....how can New Zealand select their full B team for an international and not "disrespect the jersey"? Had Australia done the same thing the board would be on fire, with people wanting the complete selection panel stripped of their nationality and consigned to Elba.
The Australian supporter's obsession with only selecting players who are the best available is just that - an obsession. We are now playing three of the top UK teams in three weeks and some rotation will be necessary or our performance against Wales will be less than spectacular. But I don't see much support on the board for resting anyone before the England/Wales tests in successive weeks. The only way Perese will get a look in for some will be due to injury.
We need a selection policy like that of our NZ neighbours, so that players get blooded early and not called into the team to debut against England.
VassMan
Darby Loudon (17)
Cause Scotland pumped us last time we played them. We don't have the luxury of taking the risk.
waiopehu oldboy
George Smith (75)
FWIW the "cheapening the jersey" argument gets trotted out with nauseating regularity over these ways, too, I'm pretty sure it's universal across all codes & nationalities? Fortunately we generally have the "building depth for 'x' " counter-argument to deploy
.I recall something similar happening a few years back: the player got sanctioned & his Club didn't even get a stern talking to.....
Jeffrey
Chris McKivat (8)
Pretty horrid from the ABs. The first half was shambolic, and the 2nd half got marginally better as the subs came on and the Italians tired. We've been in these games - you are heavy favourites on paper, but somehow the team never quite gets going. Each clink in the process chain is 5%, and by the end of the chain, every player just tries to do something spectacular which inevitably fails.
Just a little word on performance.
The ABs tight 5 was very soft today. Bower, Lomax, and Vai'i were all so soft, with no urgency and impact. I wrote previously that Josh Lord didn't deserve to be an AB, but at least he grew into the game and started throwing his body into things. Coles has scored a shitload of tries this year, and he still looks class. 2023 might not be beyond him. De Groot was too upright when he came on, and got smashed back a lot. Ofa was decent, and Aumua as you expect was reasonably good in the loose but spoiled it with a crook throw. When Sam Whitelock came on, things were noticeably different. He's just a hard dude, urgent, forceful, determined. A lot of his impact is intangible, but it shows there's a gap between the experienced locks and the new ones. There's also a noticeable hardness between Joe, Nepo, and Karl and the rest. George and Tyrel are so placid.
The loosies are interesting because the positions are up for grabs. Sam Cane struggled, but he was always going to after such a long injury. That he played better in the final moments show that all he needs is match time. Luke was very poor. Together with Tupou, he was frustrating to watch. Get stuck in guys. It's not about soft hands and running lines. Do the hard yards and hit the rucks. Sotutu was only slightly better, very untidy and lazy. But he has certain gifts which others don't, particularly at lineout. Shannon Frizell in the 52nd minute provided the first purposeful carry of the whole game when he brought it out of the 22. He was determined to make ground. No one else seemed to have that mentality.
in the backs, it goes without saying that Ennor was absolute shite. He was a complete liability on attack, and screwed up every possession under pressure. We know he's a much better player than this, but there are only 20+ tests to RWC2023. We have to start thinking how best to allocate playing time. Midfield remains an unsolved puzzle. Is Peter Umaga-Jensen still worth a look? Quinn was average, and David was pretty good when he came on. The one player who I thought played much worse than expected was Mouanga. He put his own attack line under so much pressure because he stood so deep and for most of the game, just shoveled the ball on. A fly-half that passes almost every time to 12 or 13 is the dream scenario for a rush. His tactical kicking was uncharacteristically poor - he hasn't played much and it showed. Poor from such a classy player.
One game never means much but a recurrent pattern does.
As any AB fan will have undoubtedly notice, there are a few aspects of game which are glaring weaknesses.
Any time the ABs struggle, it is always the same pattern.
- An outside in rush defence. No team has struggled as much as the ABs against a good rush, because only a few players are capable of go-forward in heavy contact. Look at how much we miss Ardie today.
- You have a big physical forward pack. The ABs can get bullied up front.
- You have an eye for the times when the ABs inevitably under-commit to the rucks and you blow them over
- You reduce the chance for AB attack in fractured play by kicking the ball out.
7 tries today, but they came from mauls or mistakes. The ABs do not do well in phase play. Over multiple phases, we go backwards. I wish we can add some variety to the game beyond trying to "quick-hands" our way to the touchline.
the cross-kick and grubber have been reasonable, but it would be much more effective if we had a 12 that can bash and one of either 12/13 who can kick.
Most of all, I hope to see ball runners at speed off the 9, instead of always going to the 10 or having the same 2 forward pod at first receiver. A runner off 9, at pace, getting the ball on or near the gainline negates the rush.
Ireland won very big today, but the Japs were off. They are a good team, not great, but they will be up for it playing in front of their home fans. I spent 6 months living in Ireland; it's not the country that motivates the Irish, it's the community. One of their strengths is the tight 5, and I would love to see our forwards get challenged. The more we get bashed up front, the better prep it is for 2023.
Just a little word on performance.
The ABs tight 5 was very soft today. Bower, Lomax, and Vai'i were all so soft, with no urgency and impact. I wrote previously that Josh Lord didn't deserve to be an AB, but at least he grew into the game and started throwing his body into things. Coles has scored a shitload of tries this year, and he still looks class. 2023 might not be beyond him. De Groot was too upright when he came on, and got smashed back a lot. Ofa was decent, and Aumua as you expect was reasonably good in the loose but spoiled it with a crook throw. When Sam Whitelock came on, things were noticeably different. He's just a hard dude, urgent, forceful, determined. A lot of his impact is intangible, but it shows there's a gap between the experienced locks and the new ones. There's also a noticeable hardness between Joe, Nepo, and Karl and the rest. George and Tyrel are so placid.
The loosies are interesting because the positions are up for grabs. Sam Cane struggled, but he was always going to after such a long injury. That he played better in the final moments show that all he needs is match time. Luke was very poor. Together with Tupou, he was frustrating to watch. Get stuck in guys. It's not about soft hands and running lines. Do the hard yards and hit the rucks. Sotutu was only slightly better, very untidy and lazy. But he has certain gifts which others don't, particularly at lineout. Shannon Frizell in the 52nd minute provided the first purposeful carry of the whole game when he brought it out of the 22. He was determined to make ground. No one else seemed to have that mentality.
in the backs, it goes without saying that Ennor was absolute shite. He was a complete liability on attack, and screwed up every possession under pressure. We know he's a much better player than this, but there are only 20+ tests to RWC2023. We have to start thinking how best to allocate playing time. Midfield remains an unsolved puzzle. Is Peter Umaga-Jensen still worth a look? Quinn was average, and David was pretty good when he came on. The one player who I thought played much worse than expected was Mouanga. He put his own attack line under so much pressure because he stood so deep and for most of the game, just shoveled the ball on. A fly-half that passes almost every time to 12 or 13 is the dream scenario for a rush. His tactical kicking was uncharacteristically poor - he hasn't played much and it showed. Poor from such a classy player.
One game never means much but a recurrent pattern does.
As any AB fan will have undoubtedly notice, there are a few aspects of game which are glaring weaknesses.
Any time the ABs struggle, it is always the same pattern.
- An outside in rush defence. No team has struggled as much as the ABs against a good rush, because only a few players are capable of go-forward in heavy contact. Look at how much we miss Ardie today.
- You have a big physical forward pack. The ABs can get bullied up front.
- You have an eye for the times when the ABs inevitably under-commit to the rucks and you blow them over
- You reduce the chance for AB attack in fractured play by kicking the ball out.
7 tries today, but they came from mauls or mistakes. The ABs do not do well in phase play. Over multiple phases, we go backwards. I wish we can add some variety to the game beyond trying to "quick-hands" our way to the touchline.
the cross-kick and grubber have been reasonable, but it would be much more effective if we had a 12 that can bash and one of either 12/13 who can kick.
Most of all, I hope to see ball runners at speed off the 9, instead of always going to the 10 or having the same 2 forward pod at first receiver. A runner off 9, at pace, getting the ball on or near the gainline negates the rush.
Ireland won very big today, but the Japs were off. They are a good team, not great, but they will be up for it playing in front of their home fans. I spent 6 months living in Ireland; it's not the country that motivates the Irish, it's the community. One of their strengths is the tight 5, and I would love to see our forwards get challenged. The more we get bashed up front, the better prep it is for 2023.
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waiopehu oldboy
George Smith (75)
Highlights
Good to see the hosts changed their strip to avoid the dreaded red & white hoops/ solid green clash
Not often you see both teams in their alternate strip & possibly less often you see them pretty much swap colours *smh*
Good to see the hosts changed their strip to avoid the dreaded red & white hoops/ solid green clash
Not often you see both teams in their alternate strip & possibly less often you see them pretty much swap colours
*smh*
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waiopehu oldboy
George Smith (75)
This just in from the Silver Lining desk: AB have now scored 675 points & 96 tries in 2021, both calendar year records for all teams.
Jeffrey
Chris McKivat (8)
Good win for the Boks, albeit close. With the weather conditions, it was always going to be an armwrestle.
Wales, especially in the reserves, are very green. But they were a stronger team than last week.
South Africa crept home, but it's easy to forget it's been a very tough 2 years for them. They didn't play at all in 2020. A number of their players have just returned from long-term injury - Pollard, De Jager, and Vermuleun. They have had a very attritional year especially against the Lions. They are missing possibly their best player - Cheslin Kolbe and also perhaps their most influential, Faf De Klerk. Finally, they've had to travel a lot more than the ABs and the Wallabies, having to come over to Australia for the duration of the Rugby Championships.
But there was something about the vibe of the team in the final 10-15 mins. After Mampipi's try was disallowed, they monstered a scrum, went to the line-out, and with a metronomic effort, rolled over a maul. They looked tremendously confident in each other, even though they were down 2 points on a wet day in Wales. Malcolm Marx was pretty awesome. In 2021, he has clearly been the better hooker, no idea what he has to do to start, considering that Bongi has been poor. But in an ironic way it seems to work, because him coming on at the end of games is quite discouraging for the opposition.
A lot of those Boks will be around in 2023. They will be a major contender again in 2 years' time.
Wales, especially in the reserves, are very green. But they were a stronger team than last week.
South Africa crept home, but it's easy to forget it's been a very tough 2 years for them. They didn't play at all in 2020. A number of their players have just returned from long-term injury - Pollard, De Jager, and Vermuleun. They have had a very attritional year especially against the Lions. They are missing possibly their best player - Cheslin Kolbe and also perhaps their most influential, Faf De Klerk. Finally, they've had to travel a lot more than the ABs and the Wallabies, having to come over to Australia for the duration of the Rugby Championships.
But there was something about the vibe of the team in the final 10-15 mins. After Mampipi's try was disallowed, they monstered a scrum, went to the line-out, and with a metronomic effort, rolled over a maul. They looked tremendously confident in each other, even though they were down 2 points on a wet day in Wales. Malcolm Marx was pretty awesome. In 2021, he has clearly been the better hooker, no idea what he has to do to start, considering that Bongi has been poor. But in an ironic way it seems to work, because him coming on at the end of games is quite discouraging for the opposition.
A lot of those Boks will be around in 2023. They will be a major contender again in 2 years' time.
KOB1987
John Eales (66)
caught the last half of the WAL v SAF game. Now just killing time watching the ENG v TON mini till ARG v FRA starts. What a great way to spend a Sunday morning. What’s the go here, the soap dodgers are wearing a cerise jersey which means Tonga have to wear their white away strip - is this just for shits and giggles or is there a legit reason for it?