Lions Tour Thread

[Blue]

I watched the 2003 RWC final in a bar in Polokwane.

My two Australian mates and I were among 150 Saffers, to a man screaming furiously for the poms. An interesting experience.

Something I would not wish on my worst enemy. You're still alive. You're lucky.

Not surprising. South Africans generally don't see the need to compete with the Poms at every turn and don't feel the same level of disdain for the Poms if I may be so bold.

It's basically a case of the rivalry they feel with Australians being a stronger emotion. The English speaking South Africans don't have the same negative connotation with the Poms as the Aussies do. The colonial histories of the two countries are different.

Somehow the Afrikaners on the whole have made peace with the fact that the Poms chucked our wives and kids in concentration camps and starved them. (PS and got Australian soldiers to mind them but that's a whole other story).

Ask your average Saffer why he doesn't like Aussies and he'll mumble something like "arrogant", "Shane Warne", "parochial" but there will be no real conviction to his answer.

In short, the average Saffer in SA hates an Aussie more than a Pom but he can't really tell you why because he hasn't met many Aussies, if any.

I think there is also this thing that Saffers feel they need to compete with Aussies. Both colonies stuck on the arse end of the earth. Both chucked in the bush and having to fend against the elements, the great colonial oppressor etc etc. That bred a bit of competitiveness in a weird sort of way if that makes any sense.

It's only once I moved here that I realised both nations actually know absolutely sweet fuck all about one another and have based their views on a lot of cliches, most incorrect or badly influenced by Shane Warne and a Monty Python skit.

The converse shaped by Rich South Africans coming to Australians, buying houses on hills and a boat or two and using the words "when we" all too often. Oh and Bakkies Botha as well as other testosterone charged individuals play their role of course.

I am not a vengeful fellow. In 2007 I strongly supported the Bokke against the poms in the RWC final. Now I will be supporting the Bokke against the EEELs which is a ridiculous concept.

Bokke 3-0

I shall buy you a beer for that statement if ever we meet my dear fellow.

Thanks for the exposition, Mate. Little of it was new to me - I have spent about 10 months in that glorious country and thus know a little about its people. Some of our fellow members of the board may find this exchange enlightening.

I went to Port Elizabeth three weeks after the 2003 RWC final. I had the great delight of meeting several much younger than I South Africans (Afrikaaner and Anglo in origin) for a few drinks on a few occasions. We discussed my Piet Polokwane incident and they opined pretty much as you have. They did raise the point that many South Africans detested Australians because they won so much. We then looked at what had happened in Australian sport in the three weeks since the RWC final - the Kangaroos annihilated Great Britain in the third RL test on the same day as the RWC final and Australians had then gone on to win something like men's and women's world cup hockey, a world surfing championship, a big golf championship, the Davis Cup (?) and a world triathlon championship. All that in three weeks rather overshadows missing out on the RWC. One lady commented "you'd better not go back to Piet Polokwane now"! She couldn't have been more wrong - after the RWC final, every Saffer in that bar wanted to buy beers for me and my two mates and could not have been more pleasant. A people of great contrasts.

Should I point out to our board that Piete Polokwane is the real heart of Blue Bull territory?

From Pietersburg to Port Elizabeth - more condolences!

Quite right, and the cricket was really what got a lot of people worked up over the years.

That's what we have in common though. Fiercely competitive but up for a laugh when the dust settles.

 

[Hugonaut]

Thought that I'd chip in an opinion from a NH [Irish] perspective in terms of the potential Lions Test team

Hooker - Jerry Flannery of Munster is probably in pole position at the moment. Lee Mears has been playing exceptionally well for Bath towards the end of the season, and the English lineout performed very well during the 6 Nations, but as one of the posters above mentioned, he's pretty much a midget. Beyond that, the Welsh hooker Matthew Rees was pretty much lucky to go in my opinion, but there's not a huge amount of options out there. Flannery is tough and aggressive, but not a particularly good carrier. Pretty weak position for the Lions.

Second Row - Alun Wyn Jones of Wales has a better chance than anybody of partnering Paul O'Connell going on 6 Nations form. He's a good lineout option, very athletic and makes a lot of tackles around the park. Wouldn't be surprised if they had him competing against Matfield in the lineout and let O'Connell and Bakkies try and knock the corners off each other, although there's a lot to play early in the tour in this position.

Nathan Hines could definitely get a look in, although contrary to what one of the posters above said, he does play in pretty good company in the Scottish pack - it's their backs who are p?ss-poor. Simon Shaw is only good for about an hour in the 6 Nations, so I don't see him lasting the pace in a test match in SA. Donnchadh O'Callaghan made the last Lions Test Team in 2005, but that's no recommendation. He's O'Connell's regular second row partner for both Munster and Ireland and had a good 6 Nations, but O'Connell tends to carry him a little. Up for grabs, but Alun Wyn Jones in with the best shout.

No.6 - lots to talk about. Alan Quinlan of Munster was a surprise choice for the tour, but in all likelihoods will miss out due to his citation for gouging against Leinster in the Heineken Cup semi. The English media were baying for his blood beforehand anyway - they wanted Tom Croft, their latest blue-eyed boy, to go. A load of them had already inked him in as a test starter, which was pretty ridiculous for a guy who has only started 2 test matches. In fairness to him, he's a serious talent, but a bit of a wimp for 6.

On the other hand, you have Joe Worsely, who was brought in for England against Wales as an openside [possibly the slowest openside of all time!] specifically to take care of their big 12 Jamie Roberts, and did a monster job - think Dusautoir against the ABs in the 2007 RWC quarter final, 20+ tackles all over the park. He definitely has a shot at 6, although he's slow as molasses and limited going forward.

I think however, that the starting 6 will be Ulsterman Steven Ferris, who is quite frankly a bit of a physical beast. In my opinion he's the best option in terms of physicality, athletic ability and aggression. He's still pretty young, and a little under the radar, but he's probably the most physically equipped to deal with Schalk, Spies and Smith.

No.8 - another Lions position with a shortage of riches. Jamie Heaslip of Ireland is in good form, very athletic and had a good 6 Nations, but is he's not a definite test choice. Andy Powell of Wales was the other choice, in a big surprise. Can't necessarily get his place at his club [with Xavier Rush ahead of him] and is a bit of a one trick pony. Still, he's a big physical monster who can make a lot of yardage in the NH. Remains to be seen how he'll do down south.

12 - pretty much down to Ricky Flutey "of England" and Jamie Roberts of Wales. Flutey is in decent form, but that's about it. Roberts is big and intelligent, but still a long way from the finished article. Another weak point for the Lions.

Full back - Full back is going to be Lee Byrne of Wales. Rob Kearney of Ireland is pretty much slumping in form after a case of the mumps.

 

[Blue]

Welcome to the Forum Hugonaut and Go raibh maith agat for your comments.

I think the Australians here will like you. You made reference to the Kiwi's bombing out of the RWC in your first post ;D

Wynn Jones seems like the logical choice at 5 to me...

Seems like finding the right back row combo could be an issue and I think the Boks might have an opening to exploit here if the Lions canlt fine one that clicks from the start.

 

[the gambler]

I would go with most of Hugonauts picks.

Flannery would get my hookers fee, AWJ the 2nd row jersey (with Hines on the bench) and Healsip 8. I expect Croft to start at 6 in the first test but to be dropped for the 2nd when the Lions get out muscled, while Flutey and Byrne will get the 12 and 15 jumpers respectively.

 

[Gagger]

Good stuff Hugonaut. Welcome aboard.

 

[Hugonaut]

Thanks for the welcome lads!

Apparently Jerry Flannery is already out - broken arm in the second day of training. The likely replacements as hooker are one of Rory Best [Ireland] or Ross Ford [Scotland].

It's looking a bit like Munster are cursed - 8 Munstermen named in the squad initially, down to 5 before they've even got on the plane: Thomas O'Leary with a broken leg, Jerry Flannery with a broken arm, and Alan Quinlan with the aforementioned 12 week ban [which was upheld by an appeal board earlier today].

PS: Didn't even notice that I'd mentioned the ABs latest RWC exit!

 

[Spook]

Hugo, which part of Ireland are you living in and are you a mucker or ladybody fan?

Good first post by the way.

 

[Hugonaut]

I'm a true blue Dub - home of the Leinster Ladyboys AKA The Cappuccino Cowboys! We're in the final of the Heineken Cup on Saturday [as you probably know], pretty much counting down the hours. That's probably why I'm such on a blight on message boards over the last couple of days ...

 

[Thomond78]

Fla out, torn ligaments in his elbow in training less than a week before getting on the plane.

Fuck.

:'(

 

[PaarlBok]

Fla out, torn ligaments in his elbow in training less than a week before getting on the plane.

Fuck.

:'(

Glad to see you back, loss son! 8), now I need to get you a Brute avator! :nta:

 

[Thomond78]

Fla out, torn ligaments in his elbow in training less than a week before getting on the plane.

Fuck.

:'(

Glad to see you back, loss son! 8), now I need to get you a Brute avator! :nta:

Nooit.

If the only option was a Blou Bullette, and GodZille wasn't interested, well, sod it, Seapoint ain't all that bad...

 

[PaarlBok]

Nooit.

If the only option was a Blou Bullette, and GodZille wasn't interested, well, sod it, Seapoint ain't all that bad...

:lmao: Always thought you like biltong. ???

Change my avator on the all Boer forum at Tvl and that lot was more interest in my Brute cow's boudjies. :lmao:

Nah Paarl has hit blue spirit and if they make it to the final , its going to get even higher. Ma will niks weet nie, she'll rather shout for the Crusaders!

 

[Blue]

Fla out, torn ligaments in his elbow in training less than a week before getting on the plane.

Fuck.

:'(

I read he'll be joining the tour later on?

Who you reckon will be starting hooker now?

 

[Hugonaut]

Ross Ford of Scotland got the nod:

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/8060361.stm

Sort of surprising, he had a really average - disappointing, even - 6 Nations campaign. Difficult to see what he has done to earn the place. Obviously you could say the same about Best, but he's been a top-notch performer for 3 years and it's been a dogfight between himself and Flannery for the Irish hooker jersey. Flannery had a huge advantage in that contest as the remainder of the front 5 were all Munster, who he plays with week in, week out, so even the fact that it was a contest says a lot for Best.

Still, hopefully Ford does well out there. It's a bad blow for the Lions, because they were already weak at hooker compared to either John Smit or Bismarck du Plessis. Now they're really weak.

 

[Pfitzy]

Still, from what I've seen of the Saffer props recently, there isn't much to strike fear into any decent Lions T5 - if they pick the right one and they all get on.

 

[Moses]

(Boss, no Lions logo so I used the Oirish logo.)

Sorted.

On topic, does anyone take the B&I Lions seriously? It'd be a major embarrassment for South Africa to lose this series, considering this cobbled together bunch haven't won a series since the last time they went to SA, last time you were world champions.

Some of the highlights from the last tour... salvaged a draw with a 1/4 strength Argentina at the last moment (drop goal I think), scraping past the Bay of Plenty who fielded about 3 professional players...

 

[Spook]

Still, from what I've seen of the Saffer props recently, there isn't much to strike fear into any decent Lions T5 - if they pick the right one and they all get on.

Agreed. The Tahs really rumbled over the Sharks pack in Durban.

 

[Blue]

Still, from what I've seen of the Saffer props recently, there isn't much to strike fear into any decent Lions T5 - if they pick the right one and they all get on.

If the right tight 5 is selected they will be very competitive.

The Sharks front 3 with the Bulls locks behind them will go fine. Won't dominate, but will be more than good enough.

We haven't had the best in prop stakes for a few years now, although the much vaunted English pack got the arse twice in the RWC.

There has not been a front row in more than ten years that could compare to the Swart / Rossouw / Du Randt combination that absolutely flattened all and sundry.

I really don't understand why though. Coaching maybe

 

[Spook]

Still, from what I've seen of the Saffer props recently, there isn't much to strike fear into any decent Lions T5 - if they pick the right one and they all get on.

If the right tight 5 is selected they will be very competitive.

The Sharks front 3 with the Bulls locks behind them will go fine. Won't dominate, but will be more than good enough.

We haven't had the best in prop stakes for a few years now, although the much vaunted English pack got the arse twice in the RWC.

There has not been a front row in more than ten years that could compare to the Swart / Rossouw / Du Randt combination that absolutely flattened all and sundry.

I really don't understand why though. Coaching maybe

The Boks seem to just want an efficient scrum these days that can hold its own. The Boks props are very mobile though and can carry.

I'd say the Lions front row will be Jenkins, Ross and Murray. Nothing hugely scary about them IMO in terms of scrummaging. Jenkins is a quality player though. Murray has big wraps but I'm yet to be convinced.

 

[Blue]

James Hook added to the squad in the place of the injured Halfpenny. Odd. 10/12 replaces a winger.