Ireland vs Springbokke @ Aviva

qwerty51 · Nov 10, 2014

2012 they played 4 times.

3 SA wins 1 draw

Mank · Nov 10, 2014

ChargerWA said:
What's recent form like between SA and Eng?

I can't remember last time you guys played each other and who won.

England haven't beaten South Africa since 2006. I'd attribute that more to England having gone through a poor period. Results are getting closer and England will beat us soon, perhaps even this coming weekend.

Code:

24 Nov 2012    England    15 - 16    South Africa
23 Jun 2012    South Africa    14 - 14    England
16 Jun 2012    South Africa    36 - 27    England
09 Jun 2012    South Africa    22 - 17    England
27 Nov 2010    England    11 - 21    South Africa
22 Nov 2008    England    6 - 42    South Africa
20 Oct 2007    England    6 - 15    South Africa
14 Sep 2007    England    0 - 36    South Africa
02 Jun 2007    South Africa    55 - 22    England
26 May 2007    South Africa    58 - 10    England
25 Nov 2006    England    14 - 25    South Africa
18 Nov 2006    England    23 - 21    South Africa

Dewald Nel · Nov 10, 2014

Mank said:
I don't buy this theory of underestimating opponents. All of us on this board know we can't underestimate Ireland (or anyone really), we need focus and intensity in every test match. It doesn't make sense to suggest that Meyer and all the players are more stupid than us.

There is something more to it and I can't define it. The Springboks have established a very solid pattern now of playing poorly in the majority of their autumn NH tour matches, especially the first match of the tour. I don't know why this is but the pattern is most definitely there. I don't mean to sound like Mr. Hindsight but I said before the game (to friends) that it would come as no surprise if we lost, but my actual expectation was a poor game by the Springboks sneaking an undeserved win at the end. We have followed that pattern closely in our NH games for a long time now. In the end the poor play caught up with us in the form a good and fired up Irish side and we got deservedly spanked. Someone in our management setup needs to recognise this pattern and find a way to change it. Arrive a couple of weeks early in the NH and play some quality opposition? Get the poor games out the way? I don't know, but it's not my job to know. I'm just the guy who forked out £70 to watch that pile of junk.

To get more specific, here in three points is what I thought went wrong:
1) Reliance on single pass hit ups with a forward. Too easy to read now and Irish defended easily.
2) Reliance on Willie le Roux to create some magic. He ran sideways against an organised defence with no help in the form of decent angled running from the other backs.
3) Lack of momentum. Every time we started to build momentum the game would turn in the form of a knock-on or penalty against us. We could not impose anything on the game.

But this style of play in points 1 and 2 has "worked" for us in the past. It does not work when point 3 manifests and we can't build momentum. We need to do the basics very very well, and this is where the All Blacks excel.

How do we beat England next week? We will need the half-backs to play much better and we will need the team as a whole to be much more clinical. Eliminate the errors, try to get on the right side of the referee, get our patterns established, build some momentum and I think the Boks can win. Don't do that and we will definitely lose again. How do I predict the result? Easy, I don't have tickets to the next match and so I expect the Boks to win ;-)

You don't have to buy into it - it's the truth. Look at Australia vs. Scotland and Samoa at home over the last few years - granted, it wasn't their A team, but at home you'd still have expected them to win with the players at their disposal.

Also, look at game 2 against Wales this year. We were nowhere near the focus and intensity we were in the first match.

Also, England vs. New Zealand 2012. That English team was in no way, shape or form superior to that All Black team, yet the AB's just didn't pitch on the day.

Also, World Cup quarter final vs. Fiji in 2007. For about 50 minutes of that match, we were not playing like a team focused on disposing a not even top 10 team, yet a week later vs. Argentina, deservedly no. 3 in the world at that stage, we romped home as we didn't underestimate them.

There are many examples if you wanna search a bit. And this weekend was a prime example of that. You don't just go for the corner 3 easily kickable penalties in a row in the first half of a match if you're not being complacent.

PaarlBok · Nov 10, 2014

ChargerWA said:
What's recent form like between SA and Eng?

I can't remember last time you guys played each other and who won.

Mank · Nov 11, 2014

Dewald Nel said:
You don't have to buy into it - it's the truth. Look at Australia vs. Scotland and Samoa at home over the last few years - granted, it wasn't their A team, but at home you'd still have expected them to win with the players at their disposal.

Complacency is clearly a "thing" but I don't think it fully explains the pattern of poor performance in Springbok autumn tours for what, 10 or so years.

And unfortunately, as long as people keep blaming complacency, we'll probably continue to perform poorly until the whole problem is identified.

Dewald Nel · Nov 11, 2014

Mank said:
Complacency is clearly a "thing" but I don't think it fully explains the pattern of poor performance in Springbok autumn tours for what, 10 or so years.

And unfortunately, as long as people keep blaming complacency, we'll probably continue to perform poorly until the whole problem is identified.

This is the first match since 2010 that we have lost on a year end tour, so I wouldn't exactly calling a crisis meeting yet.

And for not one moment do I justify the complacency - anything but. I hate it when our teams get complacent, as you then start losing matches you should really win, which is the most annoying thing we can observe as supporters.

But coming off 2 pretty good wins in the rugby championship, suddenly saying we have a shit team and that there's no hope left after 1 loss is a bit far-fetched. Thus I feel the need to point out that the loss is attributable to complacency and not much else.

I will say this however: this weekend's match vs. England will be a watershed moment leading up to the world cup. Beat England by ANY margin at home, and it will confirm that we can bounce back after a below par performance. But if we lose, we could well lose most of the confidence we built up over the last 3 years, and start going on a downward slope from there - especially with the view of the world cup being played there next year.

Almost like after we lost vs. the very same England in 1998 - it was clear the following year that it had an effect.

Mank · Nov 11, 2014

Dewald Nel said:
This is the first match since 2010 that we have lost on a year end tour, so I wouldn't exactly calling a crisis meeting yet.

And for not one moment do I justify the complacency - anything but. I hate it when our teams get complacent, as you then start losing matches you should really win, which is the most annoying thing we can observe as supporters.

But coming off 2 pretty good wins in the rugby championship, suddenly saying we have a shit team and that there's no hope left after 1 loss is a bit far-fetched. Thus I feel the need to point out that the loss is attributable to complacency and not much else.

I didn't say we suddenly have a shite team. I said we don't play well in the NH tours. I say there is more to it than mere complacency. Look at our previous results vs Ireland for the last 10 years in NH tours.

Code:

10 Nov 2012    Ireland    12 - 16    South Africa
06 Nov 2010    Ireland    21 - 23    South Africa
28 Nov 2009    Ireland    15 - 10    South Africa
11 Nov 2006    Ireland    32 - 15    South Africa
13 Nov 2004    Ireland    17 - 12    South Africa

We have lost three times and only won twice. Both of those wins were narrow and from memory fairly lucky, coming off poor performances to win at the end. How can a team be complacent against a team who clearly has their measure? Would we be complacent against Australia? No. So I am saying your theory that we were merely complacent is wrong and there is something more to it. Below is my assesment of of the Boks vs NH teams in the NH back till 2004 and shows why I think we have a habit of playing poorly up north in the winter. I don't think complacency can explain it.

Vs all NH teams in the NH going back to 2004:

Code:

23 Nov 2013    France    10 - 19    South Africa  <--- broke the hoodoo and won in France (decent game)
17 Nov 2013    Scotland    0 - 28    South Africa  <--- Win. Scots were rubbish
09 Nov 2013    Wales    15 - 24    South Africa  <--- Poor game by SA, but won reasonably
 
24 Nov 2012    England    15 - 16    South Africa  <--- Scraped through
17 Nov 2012    Scotland    10 - 21    South Africa  <--- Won
10 Nov 2012    Ireland    12 - 16    South Africa    <---- Shite, scraped through
 
27 Nov 2010    England    11 - 21    South Africa  <--- Pretty decent game, Morne Steyn on song
20 Nov 2010    Scotland    21 - 17    South Africa  <--- Shite
13 Nov 2010    Wales    25 - 29    South Africa  <--- Shite but we scraped through
06 Nov 2010    Ireland    21 - 23    South Africa  <--- Shite but we scraped through
 
28 Nov 2009    Ireland    15 - 10    South Africa  <--- Shite and we lost
21 Nov 2009    Italy    10 - 32    South Africa  <--- Italy, and we didn't play particularly well
13 Nov 2009    France    20 - 13    South Africa  <--- Shite and we lost
 
22 Nov 2008    England    6 - 42    South Africa  <--- Hammering, good game, poor English side
15 Nov 2008    Scotland    10 - 14    South Africa  <--- Shite but we scraped through
08 Nov 2008    Wales    15 - 20    South Africa  <--- Shite but we scraped through
 
24 Nov 2007    Wales    12 - 34    South Africa  <--- Ok game from memory
 
<world cup>
 
25 Nov 2006    England    14 - 25    South Africa  <--- Finally we beat England, decent game
18 Nov 2006    England    23 - 21    South Africa  <--- We could have won this but Jake replaced Butch (I was there)
11 Nov 2006    Ireland    32 - 15    South Africa  <--- Shite
26 Nov 2005    France    26 - 20    South Africa  <--- Shite
19 Nov 2005    Wales    16 - 33    South Africa  <--- Can't recall but it's a win
 
27 Nov 2004    Scotland    10 - 45    South Africa  <--- Can't recall
20 Nov 2004    England    32 - 16    South Africa  <--- Loss
13 Nov 2004    Ireland    17 - 12    South Africa  <--- Loss
06 Nov 2004    Wales    36 - 38    South Africa  <--- Scraped through

Ulrich · Nov 11, 2014

It's for this reasoon that I was sceptical before the game so I am not surprised by the loss. Surprised by the manner in which we lost.

All is not over. Sarel plays in France now so perhaps he is not a bad option for the next game to play #9. We'll beat England. The Boks raise their game for England in a similar manner to which they raise their game for the All Blacks.

The result will hurt so they'll be breathing fire.

Shelts89 · Nov 11, 2014

I think people are underestimating Ireland here a bit too. Since Schmidt took control they have been on a massive upwards. Easily the smartest NH rugby team in my opinion. Though any games between England, Wales and Ireland I wouldn't like to call. Though as an England fan I would rather play Wales than Ireland right now.

Inside Shoulder · Nov 11, 2014

Have only seen a tiny bit of the game.
something to make you think: Kaplan (Rate the Ref website) makes a case that the Ireland tactic of backing off at the lineout so as not to permit a maul to form should be penalised in one of 2 ways:

Penalise Ireland for leaving the lineout before it has ended
Penalise SA for transferring the ball backwards prior to the maul starting.

http://ratetheref.co.za/2014/11/10/kaplans-comments-ireland-vs-south-africa/

mxyzptlk · Nov 11, 2014

Hugh Jarse said:
I enjoyed listening to the Irish Commentary team. I though it was a good call of the game.

Which broadcast did you watch, Sky? A couple choice lines:

Saying Romain Poite's interpretation of the breakdown was sometimes "alternative"
Calling Victor Matfield and Paul O'Connell "antiques roadshow."

Bardon · Nov 11, 2014

I think HJ got the national broadcaster feed from RTÉ.

Blue · Nov 11, 2014

Mank said:
I don't buy this theory of underestimating opponents. All of us on this board know we can't underestimate Ireland (or anyone really), we need focus and intensity in every test match. It doesn't make sense to suggest that Meyer and all the players are more stupid than us.

There is something more to it and I can't define it. The Springboks have established a very solid pattern now of playing poorly in the majority of their autumn NH tour matches, especially the first match of the tour. I don't know why this is but the pattern is most definitely there. I don't mean to sound like Mr. Hindsight but I said before the game (to friends) that it would come as no surprise if we lost, but my actual expectation was a poor game by the Springboks sneaking an undeserved win at the end. We have followed that pattern closely in our NH games for a long time now. In the end the poor play caught up with us in the form a good and fired up Irish side and we got deservedly spanked. Someone in our management setup needs to recognise this pattern and find a way to change it. Arrive a couple of weeks early in the NH and play some quality opposition? Get the poor games out the way? I don't know, but it's not my job to know. I'm just the guy who forked out £70 to watch that pile of junk.

To get more specific, here in three points is what I thought went wrong:
1) Reliance on single pass hit ups with a forward. Too easy to read now and Irish defended easily.
2) Reliance on Willie le Roux to create some magic. He ran sideways against an organised defence with no help in the form of decent angled running from the other backs.
3) Lack of momentum. Every time we started to build momentum the game would turn in the form of a knock-on or penalty against us. We could not impose anything on the game.

But this style of play in points 1 and 2 has "worked" for us in the past. It does not work when point 3 manifests and we can't build momentum. We need to do the basics very very well, and this is where the All Blacks excel.

How do we beat England next week? We will need the half-backs to play much better and we will need the team as a whole to be much more clinical. Eliminate the errors, try to get on the right side of the referee, get our patterns established, build some momentum and I think the Boks can win. Don't do that and we will definitely lose again. How do I predict the result? Easy, I don't have tickets to the next match and so I expect the Boks to win ;-)

If I sit down at my desk in my job with a slack attitude I churn out bad work.

Same with these guys. Have to be switched on 100% and focused.

They weren't. That much was clear.

But the problem Saturday started with poor leadership and ended with a shit scrummie.

mxyzptlk · Nov 11, 2014

Paradox said:
I watched the first half and South Africa didn't respect Ireland. They had a mountain of possession and territory but were so inaccurate and Ill disciplined

I need to watch it again, but I wonder how much of the inaccuracy was due to the speed of the Irish defense. I watched the highlights again last night, and especially in the first half, Ireland were on the tackle in a blink, and a half-second later there were four defenders in the ruck.

Eventually that pressure seemed to force some inaccuracy and bad choices, like Henshaw's kick into the corner towards Leroux -- Willie was surrounded by the time he got the ball and had no choice but to kick it out, and that set up Ruddock's try off the lineout.

Braveheart81 · Nov 11, 2014

Inside Shoulder said:
Have only seen a tiny bit of the game.
something to make you think: Kaplan (Rate the Ref website) makes a case that the Ireland tactic of backing off at the lineout so as not to permit a maul to form should be penalised in one of 2 ways:

Penalise Ireland for leaving the lineout before it has ended

Penalise SA for transferring the ball backwards prior to the maul starting.

http://ratetheref.co.za/2014/11/10/kaplans-comments-ireland-vs-south-africa/

I thought Ireland were fine in what they did. I agree that if they'd actively backed away they could be penalised but it rather looked like they just didn't engage by crossing the middle of the lineout.

The player who ran around to make the tackle did it quickly and effectively.

I don't think you could penalise South Africa for obstruction at that point because no Irish player was being obstructed by virtue of the fact that they weren't trying to reach the player with the ball.

Bardon · Nov 11, 2014

On Ruan Pinaar I really rate the guy but I'm pretty sure he picked up a knee injury against New Zealand and won't play again until sometime after the International window.

mxyzptlk · Nov 11, 2014

Wales Fan said:
Great win by Ireland, Healy & O'Brien to return too.

Healy & O'Brien, and Trimble, and Best, and the other Kearney, and Chris Henry, loads more -- not sure when they're all going to be back (Henry was just sick), but there's at least a bench's worth of players coming back from injured reserve.

mxyzptlk · Nov 11, 2014

Braveheart81 said:
I thought Ireland were fine in what they did. I agree that if they'd actively backed away they could be penalised but it rather looked like they just didn't engage by crossing the middle of the lineout.

Yep. I was explaining it to my wife, and replayed one of those lineouts multiple times. Ireland didn't back off, and they didn't move forward, they just fanned out a bit.

Braveheart81 said:
The player who ran around to make the tackle did it quickly and effectively.

Jack McGrath.

mxyzptlk · Nov 11, 2014

JSRF10 said:
I know Ruan Piennar isn't rated by a lot of Saffers but I reckon he'd have made a difference in this game. He would have taken a lot of pressure off Pollard whose tactical kicking game was poor.

Pienaar is also a hell of a lot more accustomed to NH conditions than Hougaard.

Ulrich · Nov 11, 2014

The Pienaar issue is something I've remarked on previously by saying the management know better than we do and despite his slower services for our southern game he has a skillset which none of our local scrumhalves posess currently unfortunately.

It's this very skillset that's required up North.

Fourie du Preez is the ultimate of course. He provides a better performance than any other behind a struggling pack. His passing is immaculate, his kicking spot on, his reading of the game exceptional and to top it off he has a calming influence on whoever wears the #10 jersey because he is just that good.

Ireland vs Springbokke @ Aviva

Stirling Mortlock (74)

Ted Thorn (20)

Cyril Towers (30)

Rod McCall (65)

Ted Thorn (20)

Cyril Towers (30)

Ted Thorn (20)

Nev Cottrell (35)

Tom Lawton (22)

Nathan Sharpe (72)

Colin Windon (37)

Peter Fenwicke (45)

Andrew Slack (58)

Colin Windon (37)

Will Genia (78)

Peter Fenwicke (45)

Colin Windon (37)

Colin Windon (37)

Colin Windon (37)

Nev Cottrell (35)