Ireland vs Springbokke @ Aviva

[Blue]

On Ruan Pinaar I really rate the guy but I'm pretty sure he picked up a knee injury against New Zealand and won't play again until sometime after the International window.

He was with the squad until last week and failed a fitness test. They decided he needed to take more time off.

 

[Blue]

Pienaar is also a hell of a lot more accustomed to NH conditions than Hougaard.

It's not even about being accustomed or not.

The issue is a very limited skills set.

Hougaard is great on a fast track if his pack is dominating and he has space and doesn't get harassed.

His box kicking is shit and his decision making even worse. He does not have the skills to take the heat off his 10. No major surprise that Pollard had a bad outing (although the coach and senior players need to take the blame that he didn't vary his game more - kept running into a wall.)

He simply is not an international class 9. Not even fucking remotely. I get mad every time I see his name on a team sheet. I'll take Pienaar ten times over. He has his flaws but he was very good in last year's EOYT.

Meyer really is fucked. He doesn't have the players at 9. They are all pretty average to say the least.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I thought Ireland were fine in what they did. I agree that if they'd actively backed away they could be penalised but it rather looked like they just didn't engage by crossing the middle of the lineout.

They don't have to back away because you cannot cross the line of touch or a line through the ball once it has been touched or landed until the lineout is over (except in the act of jumping for the ball).
If they fan out they cannot fan out more than 15m in from touch - I think they may have breached that one too.
I don't think its straightforward: http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=19
And Im not saying I'm right

 

[Dewald Nel]

I didn't say we suddenly have a shite team. I said we don't play well in the NH tours. I say there is more to it than mere complacency. Look at our previous results vs Ireland for the last 10 years in NH tours.

10 Nov 2012    Ireland    12 - 16    South Africa
06 Nov 2010    Ireland    21 - 23    South Africa
28 Nov 2009    Ireland    15 - 10    South Africa
11 Nov 2006    Ireland    32 - 15    South Africa
13 Nov 2004    Ireland    17 - 12    South Africa

We have lost three times and only won twice. Both of those wins were narrow and from memory fairly lucky, coming off poor performances to win at the end. How can a team be complacent against a team who clearly has their measure? Would we be complacent against Australia? No. So I am saying your theory that we were merely complacent is wrong and there is something more to it. Below is my assesment of of the Boks vs NH teams in the NH back till 2004 and shows why I think we have a habit of playing poorly up north in the winter. I don't think complacency can explain it.

Vs all NH teams in the NH going back to 2004:

23 Nov 2013    France    10 - 19    South Africa  <--- broke the hoodoo and won in France (decent game)
17 Nov 2013    Scotland    0 - 28    South Africa  <--- Win. Scots were rubbish
09 Nov 2013    Wales    15 - 24    South Africa  <--- Poor game by SA, but won reasonably
 
24 Nov 2012    England    15 - 16    South Africa  <--- Scraped through
17 Nov 2012    Scotland    10 - 21    South Africa  <--- Won
10 Nov 2012    Ireland    12 - 16    South Africa    <---- Shite, scraped through
 
27 Nov 2010    England    11 - 21    South Africa  <--- Pretty decent game, Morne Steyn on song
20 Nov 2010    Scotland    21 - 17    South Africa  <--- Shite
13 Nov 2010    Wales    25 - 29    South Africa  <--- Shite but we scraped through
06 Nov 2010    Ireland    21 - 23    South Africa  <--- Shite but we scraped through
 
28 Nov 2009    Ireland    15 - 10    South Africa  <--- Shite and we lost
21 Nov 2009    Italy    10 - 32    South Africa  <--- Italy, and we didn't play particularly well
13 Nov 2009    France    20 - 13    South Africa  <--- Shite and we lost
 
22 Nov 2008    England    6 - 42    South Africa  <--- Hammering, good game, poor English side
15 Nov 2008    Scotland    10 - 14    South Africa  <--- Shite but we scraped through
08 Nov 2008    Wales    15 - 20    South Africa  <--- Shite but we scraped through
 
24 Nov 2007    Wales    12 - 34    South Africa  <--- Ok game from memory
 
<world cup>
 
25 Nov 2006    England    14 - 25    South Africa  <--- Finally we beat England, decent game
18 Nov 2006    England    23 - 21    South Africa  <--- We could have won this but Jake replaced Butch (I was there)
11 Nov 2006    Ireland    32 - 15    South Africa  <--- Shite
26 Nov 2005    France    26 - 20    South Africa  <--- Shite
19 Nov 2005    Wales    16 - 33    South Africa  <--- Can't recall but it's a win
 
27 Nov 2004    Scotland    10 - 45    South Africa  <--- Can't recall
20 Nov 2004    England    32 - 16    South Africa  <--- Loss
13 Nov 2004    Ireland    17 - 12    South Africa  <--- Loss
06 Nov 2004    Wales    36 - 38    South Africa  <--- Scraped through

My point is we've been a lot better under Heyneke on EOYTs than under previous coaches. Under piet helium and Jake White, a loss vs. Ireland over there was pretty much a given, and if we got a result, it was a bonus.

Under Heyneke, it's a bit more of a disappointment, and unexpected.

If you watched the previous 2 EOYTs, you'd understand why I was disappointed. We just looked like we were disinterested this weekend. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, we seemed very complacent.

EDIT: And we weren't that poor at all in my opinion vs. Wales last year. We scored a few quite brilliant long range tries - one by Jean, and one created by Jaque Fourie on the touchline, can't quite remember the final scorer.

 

[Mank]

If I sit down at my desk in my job with a slack attitude I churn out bad work.

Same with these guys. Have to be switched on 100% and focused.

They weren't. That much was clear.

But the problem Saturday started with poor leadership and ended with a shit scrummie.

So, why do you think they would have had a slack attitude, looking at the previous results vs Ireland and the knowledge that Ireland are a very good side? Are they all morons?

What do you think explains all the other shit play and results on our NH tours for the last, at least, 10 years?

 

[PaarlBok]

My point is we've been a lot better under Heyneke on EOYTs than under previous coaches. Under piet helium and Jake White, a loss vs. Ireland over there was pretty much a given, and if we got a result, it was a bonus.

Under Heyneke, it's a bit more of a disappointment, and unexpected.

If you watched the previous 2 EOYTs, you'd understand why I was disappointed. We just looked like we were disinterested this weekend. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, we seemed very complacent.

EDIT: And we weren't that poor at all in my opinion vs. Wales last year. We scored a few quite brilliant long range tries - one by Jean, and one created by Jaque Fourie on the touchline, can't quite remember the final scorer.

Not sure where you get this from.

the Boks have a far better record with pieter helium against the All Blacks then your Heyneke.

Heyneke is one loss away from dropping below piet helium with EYTs which look quite sure at this stage.

Piet helium and Jake White never had the Bokke out of CC to prepare properly for the end of year tours.

 

[GunsGermsRugbyandSteel]

Was at this match and it was really cold but the torrential rain had ceased hours before so decent conditions for the game and the perfect Desso Grassmaster landsdowne pitch was immaculate as always. There were lots of Boks supporters in full voice over from London mostly and they seemed to effortlessly get stuck into the spirit of proceedings before and after the game hoovering up the black stuff in the various watering holes around the stadium.

I remember once meeting Ernie Els in the old Wanderers bar. For those of you who have never been to the old Landsdowne road it was effectively a house a few meters from the pitch at one corner of the ground. I asked Ernie how his Guinness was. "I fackinnn lave it" he piped in his typically squeaky but warm, magnetic voice.

I have been to all Ireland's home wins over SA since O'Gara conned the whole SA team in '04 to get our first win in 300 years. SA games have always been fun for me over the years but this one was special. It was special because this time we didnt need the raw emotion handed to us by Jake White through his ill-advise and quasi derogatory comments re Irish rugby that preceeded both the '04 ambush and the '06 massacre. This time we completely out-witted them with a crocked squad when they were at their strongest ebb.

My brazen score prediction before the game was 20-15 to Ireland, something despite 3 losses in 5 games, to most Boks fans riding the crest of an all black slaying wave was simply unfathomable. Being a Leinster and Ireland fan however, I knew Joe had a plan and in probably our deepest pool of players ever he has the personnel to execute it.

Schmidt would have identified that Habana likes to leave his wing to defend moves up the gut. If you watch the move that lead to the second Ireland try again Bowe had already made his move before Murray had ball in hand. Preplanned. The decision to probably illegally spilt the maul for the first try was also preplanned and executed to perfection as was the decision to stand off SA's lineout mauls.

Notwithstanding all that good work I was a little puzzled that Matfield and DeVilliers persisted in probing for touch when easy points were on offer. SA also contributed to Ireland's win by failing to adapt when their game plan simply wasnt working. Thanks to Les Kiss for his ever excellent work on defense.

Two observations to conclude. 1. Was surprised when we were way ahead that PO'C asked Madigan to go for goal rather than kicking for touch but then realised the kick brought us over our record score of all time v SA which sadly Pieterson botched for us. 2. The pain of '91 still radiates through my aging bones. Bring on the Wallabies, time to settle some old scores!!! Two old Leinster coaches in a battle of wits will be most intriguing.

 

[BabyBlueElephant]

.

Excellent post. One point you nailed on the head is that this wasn't a "passion" performance. Journalists still appear to have their heads firmly buried in the 90's, as whenever Ireland pull off a major victory against a top SH team - it is due to "courage and passion" or other subtly insulting adjectives rather than tactics or outplaying them in aspects of play. This Ireland victory came from 1) superb depth for the first time ever in our history. 2) Schmidt analysing the Bok's superbly and exploiting their glaring mistakes with precision. 3) Irelands main strength over the past four seasons - being perhaps the best team in the top tier at the breakdown. 19 turnovers for a Saffa team is almost unheard of.

 

[Mank]

Was at this match and it was really cold but the torrential rain had ceased hours before so decent conditions for the game and the perfect Desso Grassmaster landsdowne pitch was immaculate as always. There were lots of Boks supporters in full voice over from London mostly and they seemed to effortlessly get stuck into the spirit of proceedings before and after the game hoovering up the black stuff in the various watering holes around the stadium.

Nice post GGRS. I have watched three Springbok games in Dublin. 1998, 2004 and 2014. I can tell the Irish love playing us and I think this is because they relish standing up physically. Psychology seems to count for a lot too, and you guys have the edge there.

EDIT: And of course, I agree, you outsmarted us.

When next do you play the Boks in SA? It's been a long while.

 

[GunsGermsRugbyandSteel]

Thank you. We are touring SA the year after the WC in 2016. That will be tasty for sure. Its been a long time since I have seen SA wear their change jersey.

One other point from the game to highlight was that Ireland didnt make one single offload out of a tackle whereas SA made 7. Schmidt plays to our strengths nicely and given we were trying out a new center combination offloads were too risky to be included as part of the game plan.

 

[Blue]

So, why do you think they would have had a slack attitude, looking at the previous results vs Ireland and the knowledge that Ireland are a very good side? Are they all morons?

What do you think explains all the other shit play and results on our NH tours for the last, at least, 10 years?

Arrogance?

We have that tendency.

Win one or two matches and suddenly we feel unbeatable.

I don't know. Why do YOU think they would be complacent? Do you think they started the game looking like they were up for it? Did we look clinical?

So you think it was all hunky dory then? Right.

 

[It is what it is]

What is the situation with props for Ireland?
I'm hearing that you have many injured but will they be back soon, and do you have any new props coming through?

 

[Brumby Runner]

Excellent post. One point you nailed on the head is that this wasn't a "passion" performance. Journalists still appear to have their heads firmly buried in the 90's, as whenever Ireland pull off a major victory against a top SH team - it is due to "courage and passion" or other subtly insulting adjectives rather than tactics or outplaying them in aspects of play. This Ireland victory came from 1) superb depth for the first time ever in our history. 2) Schmidt analysing the Bok's superbly and exploiting their glaring mistakes with precision. 3) Irelands main strength over the past four seasons - being perhaps the best team in the top tier at the breakdown. 19 turnovers for a Saffa team is almost unheard of.

Ireland certainly outplayed the Saffas in this match. One thing surprised me though - I don't think the Irish contested one lineout on the Boks' throw. Have to say I like to see the lineout being contested on as many occasions as is practicable. Was this part of a strategy to let the Boks play to their expected pattern while having the defensive line in place to counter that?

 

[PaarlBok]

Ireland certainly outplayed the Saffas in this match. One thing surprised me though - I don't think the Irish contested one lineout on the Boks' throw. Have to say I like to see the lineout being contested on as many occasions as is practicable. Was this part of a strategy to let the Boks play to their expected pattern while having the defensive line in place to counter that?

Dunno the rules but we could not get the lineout mauls going. Ref allowed them to bring it down.

 

[GunsGermsRugbyandSteel]

Dunno the rules but we could not get the lineout mauls going. Ref allowed them to bring it down.

The reason Ireland did not contest the lineout is because they did not want to engage with SA's maul. Everyone knows that the maul is one of SA's greatest weapons which they are able to score tries, gain meters and pick off penalties from all day.

In the lead up to the game a lot of the focus was the aerial battle between POC and Matfield. However, Ireland never intended in engaging in this war.

In the rugby championship Australia and NZ attempted to defend SA's maul by simply driving against it. However, if you do not engage with a maul the rule is that effectively there is no maul and you can shoot round the back and tackle the player with the ball which is what Ireland did.

This meant that SA had to either kick or pass off their lineout moves and with one of our biggest ever lineup of backs and excellent fielders Ireland was able to soak up this pressure all day. Ireland's 21yo 1st centre Robbie Henshaw is 100kgs for example.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/analysis-ireland-south-africa-maul-defence-1773839-Nov2014/

 

[PaarlBok]

The reason Ireland did not contest the lineout is because they did not want to engage with SA's maul. Everyone knows that the maul is one of SA's greatest weapons which they are able to score tries, gain meters and pick off penalties from all day.

In the rugby championship Australia and NZ attempted to defend SA's maul by simply driving against it. However, if you do not engage with a maul the rule is that effectively there is no maul and you can shoot round the back and tackle the player with the ball which is what Ireland did.

This meant that SA had to either kick or pass off their lineout moves and with one of our biggest ever lineup of backs and excellent fielders Ireland was able to soak up this pressure all day. Ireland's 21yo 1st centre Robbie Henshaw is 100kgs for example.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/analysis-ireland-south-africa-maul-defence-1773839-Nov2014/

We saw the same thing in our cc. It is a risk because you dont know the way the ref is going to ref this. I have see many teams simply making sure they touch before they go up in the line outs. The most frustrating is that the Bokke simply dont had a plan B for this and should have taken their three points iso lineouts. Anyways I am not critising the ref (not my style at all) I am blame Matfield and JdV and the players who did not stick to the basic by playing the ref. The Irish were masters with this and dominate the breakdowns.

 

[GunsGermsRugbyandSteel]

The coaches get to talk to the ref before the game dont they?

 

[PaarlBok]

The coaches get to talk to the ref before the game dont they?

Ja sure , still you never know if the frenchman understood. In the cc the refs can be a risk.

 

[Mank]

Arrogance?

We have that tendency.

Win one or two matches and suddenly we feel unbeatable.

I don't know. Why do YOU think they would be complacent? Do you think they started the game looking like they were up for it? Did we look clinical?

So you think it was all hunky dory then? Right.

Have you ready my posts? I don't think it's "hunky dory". I also think blaming every loss and poor game overseas on complacency is too simplistic and we will be doomed to fail repeatedly if that's all we're looking at.

 

[Lee Grant]

The reason Ireland did not contest the lineout is because they did not want to engage with SA's maul. Everyone knows that the maul is one of SA's greatest weapons which they are able to score tries, gain meters and pick off penalties from all day.

If you're talking about not making any contact at all as Ireland did sometimes the logic is clear.

To have a maul you have to have one defender (at least) engaged with two attackers (at least) otherwise there is no maul.

So if the lineout catcher lands with the ball and gets contacted by a defender he can slip the ball back to a latched-on team mate. There is a maul.

But if the defenders hang back and don't contact the lineout catcher when he lands, and he slips the ball back, THEN a defender makes contact with the lineout catcher (who is in front of the guy he slipped the ball to) then it is obstruction because the catcher is in front of the new ball carrier. Penalty kick to the defenders.

This is what Ireland did. It is high risk and takes a lot of practice because if the lineout jumper lands and does not slip the ball back, but several team mates shove him forward into contact with defenders hanging back, and THEN he slips it to a fellow behind him, it would be difficult to counter the momentum and to defend it from five metres out.
.