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Ireland v Australia, Saturday 26 November

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RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Under Michael Cheika the Wallabies discipline, a hallmark of their game in years gone by, has gone to complete shit.

At least half if not more if the 13 penalties were utterly stupid. Players flopping over the ruck, playing at the ball even after the ref called ruck (at least three times I could count). There were at most three penalties that could be called questionable. Nothing unusual.

It is very clear to me that Cheika is coaching an approach at the breakdown that is designed to push the line of the law to the limit and with most refs this simply is not working.

Add to that the usual (almost guaranteed) brain explosions you have in just about every test from either or all of Simmons, Fardy and Mumm and you are ALWAYS on the wrong end of the ref.

There have been too many tests over that last year where the Wobs have ended up on the wrong end of the penalty ledger.

There is an obvious pattern here.

PS. pick a captain that builds good rapport with refs. Moore had the interpersonal skills of a brick. It does not help.

To that excellent post, I would add:

Half (if not more) of the problem is that Cheika has long decided that he will be Wallaby Forwards Coach (other than as to scrums).

Is it not obvious to us all that, after 2 years as Wallaby HC, whatever his other positive attributes, he does this job poorly.

Our forwards selections are erratic and inconsistent, their work equally so, their technical astuteness and accuracy in loose play and particularly at the breakdown is often all that you say, both in terms not only relating to laws and refs, but just as much to the cleverness and finesse needed to legally and consistently clean-out, work effectively as a group off the ball, realign fast for support play, slow opposition attack and pilfer effectively.

The Irish backrow (and Ireland's forwards generally) schooled ours in most encounters and did so with a typically low penalty count; in fact, this was a, perhaps the, key a to their win (together with faultless place kicking and the high self-inflicted Wallaby penalty count, the score difference being 1 penalty kick made). Is the Irish athletic prowess in rugby forwards superior to ours overall? I don't think so, the clue is superior coaching, trained-in technique and good mental preparedness and composure. YC-inducing brain farts of the type we are often seeing in Wallaby forwards work typically arise from the opposite of these attributes.

Just as Byrne and Larkham seem (at last) to be building some coherence and better skills into the late 2016 Wallaby attack, the next evolution of this team must be within our forwards skills and playing capability. That such an evolution has clearly not emerged since late 2014 and MC's arrival highlights that the problem is significantly one of management and low levels of technical and skill development.

I have said for some time that as the Australian rugby system as a complete system does not as yet build adequate levels of technical skills into its elite players so, until this systemic malaise is repaired, there is a large premium to be placed upon our Super and national teams all having world-class rugby coaching capability in depth and in all key support disciplines and positions.

It was recently and quite openly stated by MC to a News journalist that (paraphrasing): 'I mostly leave analysis of the opposition, game plans and tactics and so on to Byrne, Larkham and Grey, I concentrate mostly on the players, helping them give their best performances.'

I found that admission very revealing in its broad daylight confirmation that MC is principally not a technically or detail-driven HC but is mostly focussed upon man-management, motivation, 'team identity' and team spirit. That's all good and to the good and we see huge evidence of his superiority in this key leadership domain over (say) Deans, we today see a Wallaby team far more intense, motivated, driven and working hard for all of 80 than we ever saw under Deans, which is a huge positive provided the team's total, all-players, technical and tactical skills are suitably improved in parallel.

Such improvements are very gradually being made, but there are not enough being made fast enough or in all critical areas of elite team skill and that is essentially why we no longer can beat the ABs (who improve at a faster rate than we do), lose 0-3 to England, and lose crucial close games as we did to Ireland.

For all the above both immediate and strategic reasons, Cheika must in early 2017 recruit a crack, full-time, matured Wallaby forwards coach. This will greatly aid better forwards selections and individual forwards development, let alone the creation of enhanced forwards skills and the related disciplines. I predict (as I have before) that until the Wallaby coaching team is complete with excellence in all the essential Assistant positions, we will be a compromised, erratic, and inconsistent team with a mediocre w-l ratio - and we will fail the Australian rugby public is so being.

L Fisher would be a near-perfect choice.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
I think Folau (by virtue of being an excellent player) just often doesn't take the simple solution. His offloads in contact when a pass would've worked, or his 'draw and not pass' against the Irish are part of this.

To an extent you don't want to coach it out of him either, it's part of what makes him a good player. The best athletes back themselves in against anyone, it's a mentality thing.

That's probably the best way to describe Folau.. his last game he was pushing passes which weren't on and this game he failed to pass when the Wallabies had a clear overlap with the try line in sight..

Obviously a talented player, but some baffling decisions at times
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
Upon reflection I cannot blame Folau for that mind blowing non pass and missing the white line fever try.

It was simply that Irish bugger's fault for tackling him.:)
 

PeterK

Alfred Walker (16)
I wonder if Folau had passed the ball and Foel kicked the goal thereby winning the game

Total and utter utter rubbish.

Soon after the non pass from Folau wallabies had the ball and naivalu scored.

He scored closer to the posts than if folau had passed.

Sure poor play by folau but it did not cost the game, if he scored the game restarted at halfway and Naivalu try would not have happened.

I am not that sure he is selfish normally and that play was just white line fever.

ran 15 times passed 22 times, 2 try assists, 6 offloads more than anyone.

Foley passed 45 times, then Folau 22, Hodge, TK and DHP next with 6 passes.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
Total and utter utter rubbish.

Soon after the non pass from Folau wallabies had the ball and naivalu scored.

He scored closer to the posts than if folau had passed.

Sure poor play by folau but it did not cost the game, if he scored the game restarted at halfway and Naivalu try would not have happened.

I am not that sure he is selfish normally and that play was just white line fever.

ran 15 times passed 22 times, 2 try assists, 6 offloads more than anyone.

Foley passed 45 times, then Folau 22, Hodge, TK and DHP next with 6 passes.


I don't care if he passed a thousand times. I saw 2 that were absolute shit, one caused us to miss a try. End of

Funny really I looked at the GAGR MOTM and he didn't score a point (I think)
 

PeterK

Alfred Walker (16)
For all the above both immediate and strategic reasons, Cheika must in early 2017 recruit a crack, full-time, matured Wallaby forwards coach. This will greatly aid better forwards selections and individual forwards development, let alone the creation of enhanced forwards skills and the related disciplines. I predict (as I have before) that until the Wallaby coaching team is complete with excellence in all the essential Assistant positions, we will be a compromised, erratic, and inconsistent team with a mediocre w-l ratio - and we will fail the Australian rugby public is so being.

L Fisher would be a near-perfect choice.

Agree.

However the issue is money.

The ARU is short of it and that was one reason it took so long to hire Byrne.

The ARU wants to minimise the number of wallaby coaches.
 

PeterK

Alfred Walker (16)
I don't care if he passed a thousand times. I saw 2 that were absolute shit, one caused us to miss a try. End of

Funny really I looked at the GAGR MOTM and he didn't score a point (I think)


The stats about passes etc was to show he was not selfish in general.

The utter rubbish comment was that the non pass when he ran it cost the wallabies the game , it clearly did not.

At what point did he throw a poor pass that meant a try went begging? Do you remember the point in the game the time, I'd like to check.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
The stats about passes etc was to show he was not selfish in general.

The utter rubbish comment was that the non pass when he ran it cost the wallabies the game , it clearly did not.

At what point did he throw a poor pass that meant a try went begging? Do you remember the point in the game the time, I'd like to check.


The try went begging hen he had a 2 man overlap and hogged it.

The other didn't necessarily equate to a try was when he choucked it over the sideline, after breaking the line. I really don't think he was under great pressure at all. That one was just poor execution, the other one was poor decision making and I expect a bloke with his talent on his pay scale to make better decisions than that.

He had "time" on both occasions
 

Strewthcobber

Simon Poidevin (60)
Agree.

However the issue is money.

The ARU is short of it and that was one reason it took so long to hire Byrne.

The ARU wants to minimise the number of wallaby coaches.
Yep. competing with Gloucester there.

At this stage in his career, Laurie's only coming back for the top job, and surely not for an assistant's wage.
 

Dan54

David Wilson (68)
Actually could go quite bad for Mumm, hasn't he just come back from a suspension? If so I would imagine if they found him guilty he would be hit hard, because he I imagine 2 suspensions in a couple of months would put him serial offender catergory!
 

amirite

Chilla Wilson (44)
That's probably the best way to describe Folau.. his last game he was pushing passes which weren't on and this game he failed to pass when the Wallabies had a clear overlap with the try line in sight..

Obviously a talented player, but some baffling decisions at times

Sure, for these reasons he'd be an excellent winger if we had a better fullback.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
e that Cheika is coaching an approach at the breakdown that is designed to push the line of the law to the limit and with most refs this simply is not working.


Not all of that can be blamed on the coach.

If you push the ref the first couple of times, and find your limit, then you should do alright.

If you don't learn from the first couple, then you get everything you deserve. You fucking dipshits.

So you can blame the coach insofar as he keeps picking dipshits, I'd say.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
Fuck me, you'd think we got pumped by Italy or something after reading the last few pages.

Well really, how have we gone

Flogged Wales (who played shithouse) and we've beaten them the last 10 times or so.

Beat Scotland by a point (again) whereas most of us thought we would comfortably win.

Beat France with a B team - doesn't really count for much (to me)

Lost to Ireland who we would have expected to comfortably win 12 months ago.

Now we come to the Soap Dodgers and we will be hard pressed to win.

IMO if we beat England then a pass mark (simply because we haven't really gone that well overall), if we lose to the Poms then a fail from me.

People will put spin on it whichever way it goes to justify their own opinion.
 

dru

David Wilson (68)
A lot has been said recently about respect from fan bases. One tell-tale on this, for me anyway, is how home fans behave when the opposition kicks for goal.

Match up the following to Ireland, Australia, New Zealand

Pretty much quiet deference.
Noise, bit of booing.
Cow bells, sarcastic whistling and booing.
 

Twoilms

Trevor Allan (34)
Scrubber, you fail to adjust your expectations for form. Wallabies, Australian Super teams and players were all very low on it post World Cup. Northern Hemisphere meanwhile found its feet. New Year and new expectations. All of the Northern teams have (save Wales) improved out of sight. England are closing in on the All Blacks, France only lost to the All Blacks by 5 (rather than 60 or whatever). South Africa literally couldn't win a game. Hell we only beat Scotland last year by one dodgy penalty. Why would you expect to beat them comfortably? They don't seem to be getting any worse and we have.
 

Strewthcobber

Simon Poidevin (60)
Brian Smith's article on the front page has a terrific front on camera shot (in the first gif) of Australia's defensive set-up from the lineout at 5:30 game time.

Shows the numbers on your back don't mean what they used to in modern rugby.

Hooker:- Foley

Sio lifting Arnold at the front
Moore and Pocock lifting Simmons in the middle
Mumm at 6, with Kepu at the back

Genia at half

Hooper first defender in the line
Hodge second in the line
Kurindrani third in the line
Speight fourth in the line

DHP back behind the line-out
Izzy back on the open side.

Even with all those players in the mid-field Ireland still created an overlap
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
Scrubber, you fail to adjust your expectations for form. Wallabies, Australian Super teams and players were all very low on it post World Cup. Northern Hemisphere meanwhile found its feet. New Year and new expectations. All of the Northern teams have (save Wales) improved out of sight. England are closing in on the All Blacks, France only lost to the All Blacks by 5 (rather than 60 or whatever). South Africa literally couldn't win a game. Hell we only beat Scotland last year by one dodgy penalty. Why would you expect to beat them comfortably? They don't seem to be getting any worse and we have.

Our form last year wasn't bad - we made the RWC final.

I honestly thought we were on the way up. The English tests put paid to that. The Chek spin was that we were introducing new players blah blah.

I agree that the NH sides have got better at playing the SH sides - no question.

The question is, why haven't we ?

Is it the culture of the group, the coaching (inclusive of assistants although Bernie seems to be growing into the role quite nicely), the selections of some, the undying teflon character (in the coaches eyes), is it the battering the boys get at training, the captaincy, the lack of skills and poor decision making, the lack of discipline, lack of a psychologist (we might have one ???)

I don't know but I feel we have the players. It just comes down to those 1% 'ers. They all add up.
 

Twoilms

Trevor Allan (34)
Man, as with most things, it's probably a combination of wide and varying reasons some we can identify and some we can't.

My top picks are:
1. Cash - we have fuck all of the stuff and it makes the world turn.
2. Injuries - Pretty shitty run with injuries.
3. Grass roots - Our inability to nurture the base of the game is finally bearing its fruits on the national scene.

I think the smaller stuff is less to blame. The coaching staff at the moment are pretty slick if you ask me. The best we've had in a long time and they are making the most of a pretty shitty meal. Selections etc, are all so much easier to call out retrospectively.
 
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