Ireland v Australia, Saturday 26 November

[Scrubber2050]

Our national captain needs to know how to manage all the match officials, in the sense of maintaining a good level of mutual respect and proper communication. If he doesn't know how to, he either should be replaced as captain, or educated.


Just because the ABs seem to know how to do it doesn't mean we can't.

Absolutely correct

Moore is the on field captain and as such has the responsibility of bringing to the attention of the Ref anything he considers warranted.

I have said it before but Refs are "miked" up. They understand that if a captain continually (but respectfully) brings indiscretions to his attention everyone hears the comments. The Ref knows his performance of the game is reviewed by higher authority and if he continues with shitty decisions (after they are brought to his attention by the captain) then some ramifications often follow.

It's about Referee management.

People can debate Moore's on field performance as a player but not many can sing his praises when it comes to "influencing" a referee (in a good way)

 

[Pfitzy]

As long as he doesn't influence the ref in a bad way, then he's doing a good job.

We should aim to get good enough to take the ref out of the equation. At the same time, treat them with respect and the job is done as a skipper.

People who clap their hands loudly and give a half-yell of "THANK YOU SIR!" are twats of the highest order. They are the first against the wall when the revolution comes; this has the added benefit of removing many backs from the game so that we can get on with some rugby.

 

[TOCC]

were there that many ruck penalties?

Of the 13 penalties from what I remember
2 in mauls for side entry
2 in scrums
1 offside
2 dangerous tackles
1 dangerous cleanout

so at most 5 ruck penalties

And probably 3 or 4 more penalty advantages that played out or were overrided by subsequent penalties..

Mightn't seem a huge figure, but compared to Irish who were only penalised 3 times, it's a massive factor

 

[barbarian]

Referee management is important, but it doesn't magically solve a 13-3 penalty count. The ref could love Steve Moore like the son he never had, but if Pocock comes in from the side then he's still getting pinged.

The ABs generally do all of this well, but it's also worth remembering they copped a very lopsided count against Ireland in both of their games too.

Ireland are a very disciplined side, and like us the ABs like to push the boundaries at ruck time. Good ref management can help this problem, but it will never solve it.
.

 

[Scrubber2050]

As long as he doesn't influence the ref in a bad way, then he's doing a good job.

We should aim to get good enough to take the ref out of the equation. At the same time, treat them with respect and the job is done as a skipper.

People who clap their hands loudly and give a half-yell of "THANK YOU SIR!" are twats of the highest order. They are the first against the wall when the revolution comes; this has the added benefit of removing many backs from the game so that we can get on with some rugby.

One of my main points was that the Captain needs to respectfully bring it to the Refs attention every time he fucks up

Love the revolution comment (first time I have heard that one)

 

[Dan54]

What does that have to do with the ABs getting an apology after the match from the ref's boss?

Actually when did the ABs get an apology after a game, Rollaind said the call against A Smith was wrong but he didn't apologise. I have no doubt he would say if he considered any YCs for the Wallabies were wrong. And I not sure that either were incorrect.

 

[Scotty]

And probably 3 or 4 more penalty advantages that played out or were overrided by subsequent penalties..

Mightn't seem a huge figure, but compared to Irish who were only penalised 3 times, it's a massive factor

Agree. The 13 wasn't an issue.

It was the 3 that really stands out. There is no way that the Irish were that disciplined. In fact no one can be in rugby if you want to actually win.

 

[KevinO]

It was the 3 that really stands out. There is no way that the Irish were that disciplined. In fact no one can be in rugby if you want to actually win.

Three does stand out, but watch the other 3 games prior to this test and Ireland's penalty count stands out as having incredible discipline.

NZ in Chicago only gave away 4 compared to NZ 12
Canada. gave away 9 compared to Canada 10
NZ in Dublin only gave away 4 compared to NZ 14

Average 5/12.25

Remove the Canada game 3.6/13.

So it's not really any different than the way they played against the All Blacks.

The Irish coaching staff have recognized that the penalty count is important to Ireland being competitive. Previous games this year that I can find stats of Ireland averaged 10 per game and opposition was around 9.5 per game.

If you look at the results from those games it makes sense that Ireland worked hard on discipline.

 

[boyo]

I can't see the Wobs beating the poms, sad to say. ABE.

 

[PeterK]

Referee management is important, but it doesn't magically solve a 13-3 penalty count. The ref could love Steve Moore like the son he never had, but if Pocock comes in from the side then he's still getting pinged.

The ABs generally do all of this well, but it's also worth remembering they copped a very lopsided count against Ireland in both of their games too.

Ireland are a very disciplined side, and like us the ABs like to push the boundaries at ruck time. Good ref management can help this problem, but it will never solve it.
.

less than 1/3rd of penalties were in the ruck

 

[Scotty]

Three does stand out, but watch the other 3 games prior to this test and Ireland's penalty count stands out as having incredible discipline.

NZ in Chicago only gave away 4 compared to NZ 12
Canada. gave away 9 compared to Canada 10
NZ in Dublin only gave away 4 compared to NZ 14

Average 5/12.25

Remove the Canada game 3.6/13.

So it's not really any different than the way they played against the All Blacks.

The Irish coaching staff have recognized that the penalty count is important to Ireland being competitive. Previous games this year that I can find stats of Ireland averaged 10 per game and opposition was around 9.5 per game.

If you look at the results from those games it makes sense that Ireland worked hard on discipline.

Without a doubt they were disciplined, but 5 or 6 would be disciplined, 3 is the ref missing things (obviously the obstruction being the big one - even missed on replay).

 

[2bluesfan]

.... this has the added benefit of removing many backs from the game so that we can get on with some rugby.

Contender for Line Of The Year.

 

[KevinO]

Without a doubt they were disciplined, but 5 or 6 would be disciplined, 3 is the ref missing things (obviously the obstruction being the big one - even missed on replay).

There is one think I actually like about Garces that really worked in Ireland's advantage on the weekend. You have to earn every penalty.

At one stage Best was trying to roll away and Genia just fell all over him playing for a penalty and got nothing. Made Genia pass horrible and slow cause he messed around and ended up in really bad position to make a pass.

Almost cost Ireland when Murray fired the ball straight to Pocock looking for a penalty for offside and Garces just called play on.

 

[dru]

There is one think I actually like about Garces that really worked in Ireland's advantage on the weekend. You have to earn every penalty.

At one stage Best was trying to roll away and Genia just fell all over him playing for a penalty and got nothing. Made Genia pass horrible and slow cause he messed around and ended up in really bad position to make a pass.

Almost cost Ireland when Murray fired the ball straight to Pocock looking for a penalty for offside and Garces just called play on.

Your call on that Genia action is BS. There had been an on-going intentional infringement by the Irish in flopping through the tackle to the wrong side of the ruck almost clear, then making no attempt to move. The half is pretty much the only bloke on the field who can point it out.

I stopped swearing at the Irish and started cheering for Will at that point.

PS: If you are using that incident as the flavour of the ref, then he was utterly one-sided.

 

[Scotty]

There is one think I actually like about Garces that really worked in Ireland's advantage on the weekend. You have to earn every penalty.

At one stage Best was trying to roll away and Genia just fell all over him playing for a penalty and got nothing. Made Genia pass horrible and slow cause he messed around and ended up in really bad position to make a pass.

Almost cost Ireland when Murray fired the ball straight to Pocock looking for a penalty for offside and Garces just called play on.

Actually IRC there was a similar incident on the other side where a Wallaby seemed to have done enough to roll away but got penalised anyway.

 

[Highlander35]

Naiyaravoro Just returned form Glasgow, I find it hard to believe that he is earning more at the Tahs then he was at Glasgow.

No, but a Japanese sojourn, the potential of Wallaby Caps (and wages!), stronger Aussie Dollar and a happy wife will go a long way to making up the difference!

 

[fatprop]

No, but a Japanese sojourn, the potential of Wallaby Caps (and wages!), stronger Aussie Dollar and a happy wife will go a long way to making up the difference!

I think training in winter, in Glasgow, could be a tad disheartening for a Fijian born unit as well

 

[Highlander35]

I think training in winter, in Glasgow, could be a tad disheartening for a Fijian born unit as well

You'd think so.

But Niko and Leone handled it fine, and Bill seems to be doing fine at Edinburgh.

Deliberately excluding Jerry (Canberra) and Nemia (Romania) from that. Winter in Glasgow would feel like a crisp autumn day for those two.

 

[ForceFan]

Ireland v Wallabies - 26 Nov 2016

Have collected the data but no time for analysis.
Make of the Ruck Involvement stats what you will.

Ireland had 57% Possession (70%/44%) and 56% of the Territory (75%/38%).

The turning point for me was Mumm's Yellow Card (22 mins) - about which I have no complaints.
Ireland immediately scored a try after Mumm had gone off (23 mins).
By 30 mins Ireland had a dominant scrum followed by an even more dominant maul.
Mumm returned at 32 mins but Ireland already had momentum and scored another try at 33 mins. Ireland 17: 0 Wallabies.

Wallabies did well to fight back to be in front I 20:21W at 56 mins. but Ireland always looked in control.

Disappointing that the Wallabies couldn't find a way to get over the line or even get even in the last 15 minutes.

Ireland outworked the Wallabies at the breakdown - winning 97% of their rucks (100/103); Wallabies won 92% (76/82).

Wallabies line speed too slow all match and way too slow/too few in support. Ireland a lot more committed to the win.

The Ireland 3:13 Wallabies says a lot about the game - but the Wallabies had only themselves to blame.

I'm still to work out how Rory Best can get away with running interference beyond the ruck - he started it early with a blatantly preventing Hooper making an early ruck.

The other serial miscreant was Devin Toner who loitered (manhandling players without the ball) on both sides - in fact all around - rucks all match seemingly with immunity. It was also a good blocking move on Arnold.

Remember:
1. Early means 1st or 2nd of player’s team AFTER the ball carrier has been tackled and brought to ground.
2. Impact means active engagement: strong physical contact, changed shape of ruck, clean-out, protecting ball etc. (more than hand on someone’s bum or arriving after the hard work has been done). Yes it’s subjective - but as I collect all data at least it’s consistent.
3. Impact DOES NOT equate to Effectiveness. I’ve concluded that coming up with an effectiveness measure is just too hard in the time that I have available – but open to suggestions.

Ruck Involvements over Time

Josh van der Flier a very useful player.
Furlong, Henderson and McGrath did heaps of early work.

How much are we going to miss Pocock next year?
He had nearly 30% of the Wallabies Defence Ruck Involvements; about 50% of the Wallabies DRIs in the 1st half.
Hooper's numbers were 20% and 22%.
Pocock had 14 Tackles/2 missed; Hooper 12 Tackles/4 missed.
Hooper is still the better ball carrier.

The Wallabies Tight 5 totally outworked by their Irish counterparts - but what else is new?

Best numbers for Backs:

Ireland: Ringrose - 22 Total (19 Attack/3 Defence); Zebo - 14 Total (14A/0D); Earls (14T (11A/3D); Jackson - 13 T (10A3D)

Wallabies: Folau - 13T (12A/1D); Kuridrani - 11T (10A/1D).

More Stats in the next post.

England to follow when I can get the time.

 

[ForceFan]

Very even distribution of Rick Involvements across player groups by Ireland. As usual the Wallabies Back Row did most of the work.

Similar story to the Total numbers above.

IMO an unreasonable burden of DRIs is carried by the Wallabies Back Row.

Wallabies Front row just don't make their presence felt by the oppositio.

Both sets of Locks mainly supporting their own ball carriers. That's where Coleman makes a difference. Arnold had 8 Tackles but only 2 RIs in 40 mins.

Wallabies Backs very subdued.

Ireland prepared to commit more numbers in support of their own ball carriers - averaging 2.4 players/attack ruck. Wallabies av 2.2 players/ruck.

Ireland more prepared to put early pressure on the Wallabies ball carriers.
Still averaged a fairly low 0.6 players/Def Ruck.

Wallabies stood off a lot more rucks. Av only 0.5 players/Def Ruck.