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IRB U/20 Tournament and Oz Squad

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tranquility

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I was actually pretty disappointed with Dom Shipperley. For all the attacking nous he has, he still has alot of work to be a consistent super 14 player in terms of his defense and positionally both in attack and defense. I know he is young but considering he was signed for the senior squad for next year I thought he would have been further developed than he is. However he is a big lad and has plenty of pace, I'm sure he will figure the rest out.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Rumours going around in Bokkie camp is that Aus is making a huge effort to poach SA youngsters , big money throwing around here. Like I qouted they can poach much better SA youngsters for next to nothing if they get their facts right and poaching at the right spots.

Interesting read about our lot from Rugby365
Are we really only third best?

After watching the Under-20 Bokkies yet again claim the bronze medal at the IRB Junior World Championship, I started thinking about the reasons why we do not capitalise on our excellent schools rugby system and dominate the junior rugby world as we are suppose to.

Imagine if the Aussies had our schools rugby set-up how invincible they would have been by now?!
The only reason I could come up with for our consistent failure at this level in the past few years after thinking about and analysing this for a long time, is inconsistent selections or just plain bad selections and administration.

If we look at the current 22-man squad only nine (less than 50%) were deemed good enough to make South African Schools in either 2007, 2008 or 2009.

What happened to the other 13 players? I realise that the selectors for the South African Schools teams and the South African Under-20 teams are different entities, but surely in two seasons, 13 players can't have deteriorated that much? We know the South African Schools teams did not do well against Academy sides in 2007 and 2008 and could that be the reason that some of them fell by the wayside? Is our selections policy then at school level so flawed we cannot catch the top talent?

Our schools rugby is in a very good place at the moment and the quality of rugby played is sometimes better than what I see at Super Rugby level and northern hemisphere leagues. Why then does this not spill over into success at Under-20 level?

First of all, I think that the problem starts with the selection of representative teams at Under-16 and Under-18 level for all the different rugby weeks during June. The best players in their positions are not always selected because of selection policies that must be upheld, personal favourites of coaches/selectors, etc, etc. This then results in a lot of players being excluded from the limelight and possible selection for higher honours as they are 'out of sight and out of mind'.

I understand that the current squad of Under-20 players were selected from the players who played in last years Under-19 Currie Cup competition. That in itself is a good platform for selection, but again, those players that are not in the system at provincial level will all be overlooked yet again! The chances of a player being invited to the 'Elite Group' of Under-19 players in a provincial setup if he did not play representative rugby at school are very remote, if nigh impossible!

Some players develop a little later than others (ask Pieter 'Slaptjips' Rossouw, Henry Honiball, etc) and will be lost to South African rugby if the net is not thrown wider. Players like Rossouw and Honiball would most probably never have played for South Africa had they come through the modern junior systems.

Of all the test playing Springboks since 1976, only a mere 20% represented the South African Schools side. This is a good indicator that most Boks develop later and that we should focus more on Under-19 and Under-20 development than Under-16 and Under-18.

I strongly believe that they must introduce something like a Under-19 Varsity Cup and use Under-19 Currie Cup competitions more as the breeding ground for future Boks and that more players could get better exposure through these competitions. How, may you ask can that be achieved? By using the current schools rugby system that is already in place!

Most schoolboy rugby players nowadays aspire to at least make their provincial Craven Week or Academy sides to be able to catch the eye of some provincial scout at these weeks and procure a junior contract to get their foot into the door of professional rugby. The reality is that most of them do not make it and then lose interest in the game as they do not get another opportunity to show off their abilities.

Let's face it, these boys play at most two or three trial games and have to prove themselves within a limited amount of time. Not many players will get enough chance to show off what they are capable of. A wing with a devastating side step may not have the opportunity to showcase this if he never gets the ball in a trail game. How can a hooker and a lock combine in two games if they have never played together? The great Frik du Preez himself said that if the selectors looked at him only at trial games he would probably never have played for the Boks! These boys must be looked at in their 'natural' environment, i.e. their schools sides, to be able to really judge their abilities, because it is here that they learn to play to a structure, game plan and other aspects of a team game. If they knew that they would have another bite at the cherry even after they have left school and even if they did not make one of these representative sides, would we not end up with more players playing the game and thus a bigger pool to pick from?

That is where the current schools rugby system can help and benefit South African Rugby in the future. The schools invest a lot of time and money into these boys and at the end of the day their or other provincial bodies eventually reap the benefits without anything being ploughed back into schoolboy rugby or the schools themselves. If these schools can get a vested interest in the further development of a player, don't you think they will make sure that he gets as much exposure as possible? That is one possible solution. Current school derbies can be used to invite scouts and senior coaches to come and view the talent and thus create more opportunities for players.

I do not have the definitive answer, but the idea is more school exposure that will lead to more player exposure in the end.

Back to the Under-20 Baby Boks and the question of why we cannot dominate this competition. The simple reason is that some of the wrong players gets identified too early and maybe kept too long in the system and by the time the World Cup comes along these players are simply not good enough anymore and then it is too late to introduce other talented players. They must constantly monitor the best Under-19 and Under-20s in the country by using the different competitions or create competitions for these age groups. The English group have played together as a unit in the Six Nations Under-19 prior to competition and have been selected more than a year ago.

Can it be too farfetched to think about a Super Under-19 competition with all the franchises involved concurrently running with the Super 15? Would that not be a great stepping stone to higher rugby honours!
The writer obvious have a few valid points but the cruch is that qoutas player and coach the obvious reason. We lost a lot of young talent between school and Craven Week rugby. Thats where the qoutas starts in our rugby and once a young player miss the Craven boat he miss the Saru boat. Thats the lot you should get your hands on.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
Its a cheap shot I know, but Dud Roodt was an appallingly bad choice to poach for the Waratahs. How do we guarantee that we don't do that again?
 

inthestands

Sydney Middleton (9)
Its a cheap shot I know, but Dud Roodt was an appallingly bad choice to poach for the Waratahs. How do we guarantee that we don't do that again?

Two things on this one: when he got back from the SA tour he got a syndesmosis injury playing for Jnr Tahs at Forshaw and only made it back in May (like Jowitt, he pretty much was out injured for the entire season). Plus, he was signed under the developing foreign player rule, so I wouldn't have thought he would have been on much cash either.

I think anyone signed under that ARU clause will either be a revelation or a 'Dud'... probably no in between. Has anyone else been signed under that rule, or just the 'marquee' rule?
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Two things on this one: when he got back from the SA tour he got a syndesmosis injury playing for Jnr Tahs at Forshaw and only made it back in May (like Jowitt, he pretty much was out injured for the entire season). Plus, he was signed under the developing foreign player rule, so I wouldn't have thought he would have been on much cash either.

I think anyone signed under that ARU clause will either be a revelation or a 'Dud'... probably no in between. Has anyone else been signed under that rule, or just the 'marquee' rule?
The rumours I got is that Aus strategy is to get the young ones, let them ply their trade through your Academies and after three or four years they'll be available to the Wallabies. Its a long term investments , not a quick fix. We talking about contracting for much more these youngsters will get at the SA U19/21 provinces.

Never a good idea to start at the top in rugby, much better to fight it to the top lot.
 

inthestands

Sydney Middleton (9)
The rumours I got is that Aus strategy is to get the young ones, let them ply their trade through your Academies and after three or four years they'll be available to the Wallabies. Its a long term investments , not a quick fix. We talking about contracting for much more these youngsters will get at the SA U19/21 provinces.

Never a good idea to start at the top in rugby, much better to fight it to the top lot.

The rule is for S14 squads, not Academies. Fair call about not being a good idea to start at the top, however Roodt went to Oz having won a Vodacom Cup with the Blue Bulls, been in their Currie Cup squad and played Emerging Springboks... the next step for him was Super 14. He didn't get much of a look-in because Mumm, Douglas, Dennis, Thomson and Caldwell were always ahead of him.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
The rule is for S14 squads, not Academies. Fair call about not being a good idea to start at the top, however Roodt went to Oz having won a Vodacom Cup with the Blue Bulls, been in their Currie Cup squad and played Emerging Springboks... the next step for him was Super 14. He didn't get much of a look-in because Mumm, Douglas, Dennis, Thomson and Caldwell were always ahead of him.
If you ask me he havent been used that much at the Brutes in fact if I remember correct he took a bit of a rest there after not getting gametime. They have a lot of locks and a player like Wilhelm Steenkamp (who was in front of him in the row) had to go to the Sharks to sit on the bench. The Emergency Bokke match he had been playing, dunno Boet, think that was a bit of a joke in Russia.

Hopefull he'll get gametime with the Tin Ears who have a shortage of locks, the Brutes, they have Jeandre Kruger back who is quite a talent and Steenkamp may go elsewhere.

Blue is obvious the expert here when it comes to this Dude laaitie.
 
H

hello123

Guest
1. paul alo-emile
2.siliva siliva
3. scott sio / matt mafi
4.luke jones
5. ed quirk
6. michael hooper
7. liam gill
8. colby Fainga'a
9.eddie brendenhann
10. james ambrosini
11. kimami sitauti
12. stephano hunt
13. tom kingston
14. dom shipperley
15. damon anderson
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Does Robbie Coleman still qualify if he's not 21 until December?

If so he'd be first picked at 12...
 
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The Blindside

Guest
1. paul alo-emile
2.siliva siliva
3. scott sio / matt mafi
4.luke jones
5. ed quirk
6. michael hooper
7. liam gill
8. colby Fainga'a
9.eddie brendenhann
10. james ambrosini
11. kimami sitauti
12. stephano hunt
13. tom kingston
14. dom shipperley
15. damon anderson

Hugh Roach, Ben Volavola and Apolosi Latimipulu (ex Newington 2010) all made the squad.
 

nathan

Watty Friend (18)
What about Jacob Woodhouse? I thought Lee had pretty big wraps on this guy from junior waratahs games earlier this year?
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
On Woodhouse: I had big wraps on him as a schoolboy. I didn't see him in 2010, his first year out of school except for a few minutes for the Junior Waratahs. In 2011 he started in one game for the Juniors and had a blinder but didn't get another run. He wasn't available for the U/20 trial game because of injury so the reason why he didn't play more for the Juniors was probably because he was injured already.


He moved to the Manly club this year and has been listed in the programmes as playing in the Ones at 13 and 15 when others have been hurt, but he didn't play in the one Manly game I saw - against the Rats.


Maybe that blinder was a one off, but it was a blinder. Maybe lily can tell us how he is going for Manly this year.


This is the third thread on the U/20 team in the last few months and IIRR I listed some likely picks on the first one. I will wait to the actual team comes out before I comment further.


If they are healthy at the minute all of the 12 who played last year and are eligible for 2011 would form the basis of the team plus any 2009 Schools players who have played grade and made a decent first of it.


Kingston was not in the 2010 team but has played Super rugby and would have to be in, hopefully in his best position of 13. Perhaps Saifoloi, who played for the Juniors this year and can play a few spots and kick goals will get a gig. Even Apo who was in 2010 Oz Schools could be in the squad as he has played in 1st grade already. Quicksilver Ethan Ford who plays for the Eastwood Ones may have a shot too.


As usual the success of this team will be decided by the forwards. The lads did well last year and made the final, but I remember writing that although we had some good young dogs the Kiwis in the final played like wolves. Their relentless pursuit of the ball, which was always rightfully their ball in their thinking, their constant running into position to make an attack or to rejig their defensive line, and their incessant ethic of backing up was too much for our lads.


I hope that the Oz selectors have some candidates who have the same team attributes. They will need those types of players to take that extra step.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
So, the stance from the ARU is that the U20 JWC takes preference over the Super Rugby competition, the caveat is, if a player is selected for 4 starts or 8 times in the match day 22, then the Super Rugby team can opt not to release the player.

It was the agreement settled on between the ARU and the Super Rugby clubs last year, obviously there is likely to be some case by case scenarios though.
 

Jets

Paul McLean (56)
Staff member
You would think any guys not with the Reds or Tah's would be better off going to the U20 JWC. You would think playing Super Rugby finals would be a good experience for any of these players.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
IIRR Deans said last year that the Oz U/20 team would have preference and indeed, Colby F, Hooper, Jones, Quirk, Turner, To'omua, L.Morahan and Shatz all played in the both the S14 and U/20 tournaments last year.

There are are a few people who are saying that different players are in the squad and someone indicated than three 2010 Newington boys are in it. Does anybody have a complete list of who is in the squad for sure, as apart from hearsay?
 
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