If Robbie goes who should replace him as Wallabies coach?

[Dan54]

This type of argument comes up all the time and frankly it's bullshit. Just because someone states something in the past doesn't mean it's true today.

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To be fair Sully, I wasn't trying to argue, just point out how some people have got so knowledgable after the fact, mate there were plenty in NZ that thought Deans should of got ABs, and were sure he was going to make Wallabies unbeatable, I'm sure like JON etc, or perhaps you are saying that Deans has become a poorer coach since coming into Wallabies.

I tend to go along with Daz's broccoli comments.

 

[Lindommer]

Dingo was a multiple Super Rugby winning coach, with assistant Lords of Darkness experience. Link has won one Super Rugby title, and had time as assistant coach at Men in Gold level.

Link's had one successful year as a coach of a representative state team, so did Macqueen. Look where that took us.

 

[Scotty]

Was at a lunch where Knuckles spoke on Friday.

Didn't say much good about Deans and thought that the NSW powers that be would push for seeing how Cheika goes before settling on Link (indicating Deans is here until at least EOYT next year).

The big point he made about Deans' failings was that he discarded experienced players early and promoted young guns too fast, thus weakening the culture of the team. He has made a rod for his own back on this front and now it appears it will lead to his demise.

 

[Lindommer]

.....made a rod for his own back on this front.....

A visually confusing mixed metaphor there, Scotty?

 

[kiap]

Very true. My son used to violently rebel when broccoli was served during dinner time when he was a little kid. Now he is much older he enjoys broccoli.

The broccoli hasn't changed; just his opinion.

Maybe you stopped overcooking it.

Nah, scratch that. His taste buds got burned out!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

This thread may now be put into hibernation.
Apparently the ARU is content with performances and, I reckon, unless the lions series is:
(a) a debacle; and
(b) Dingo has all his players available for it but still can't produce
he will be here for the next RWC.
It seems inevitable that come this time in 2013 the ARU consensus will be that it's too close to RWC2015 to change jockeys. A change at that time could only be considered/justified if the lions series was viewed as a catastrophe without a legitimate excuse: comparable to Smiths position before Macqueen.
I guess this means the ARU accept that despite JONs promises we deserve to be 3rd in the world and not 1st as he promised we would be by now. It took a kiwi to show us our true worth!
On an even more disturbing note the highly intelligent and usually reasonably articulate Lord Hawker seems to have recently graduated from the Dingo Deans School of public speaking, always assuming that the quote accurately reflects what he said:
'That's something we're looking at as to why that occurred and how we might be able to do about that. We can actually improve the better player management process between the ARU and the Super Rugby franchises to make sure the player welfare is managed right collectively across those two levels of the game"
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...-backs-him-as-lions-tamer-20121211-2b7u6.html

 

[Scotty]

Two years is enough time before the world cup. 2013 will be a year long competition between white, link and Cheika to see who gets the nod.

 

[Train Without a Station]

This has become rediculous that the ARU are supporting Deans saying he is doing a great job constantly despite under performing and meeting the original published KPI of 75% win/loss ratio and #1 in the World by now. It is insane to keep doing the same thing and expect a different result. More disturbingly the further this goes on, the less likely they appear to make a change. The previous mentioned commented regarding Conolly's view that he culled experience is exactly right and the biggest problem with this team. What fucking Wallaby coach has ever been given 6 years to produce results without going forward?

I understand some of the comments about a worldwide search for a coach, but seriously, who is out there? No quality Aussie coaches are seen as world beaters overseas. It appears the best Australian coaches in Link and Cheika are now coaching here. Also, a foreign coach will not be accepted after Deans, and is probably not a great idea unless they have reasonable experience coaching in Australia. So that leaves White, who would piss off half the punters anyway. When you consider that, Cheika probably needs to get some runs on the board again after a rough trot in France, Jake is in his second year and would do a serious disservice to ACT rugby to leave, and in addition only 11 months ago turned down a chance at the England top job to stay, whilst you've got Link working on an exit strategy and succession plan at the Reds. Realistically him getting the job is probably the best for Australian Rugby as a whole. He has got runs on the board at Super Rugby level, with 2 teams, experience as an assistant in a reasonably successful international set up (World Cup Runners Up 2003), has taken an underperforming team to a title in a short time frame (Reds 13th? in 2009 to Champions in 2011), as well as taking the experience from working in a number of different team environments (Brumbies originally as an assistant, Waratahs, Stade Francais and the Reds) as well as being an ex-player, would have the passion for the team aslo, beyond professional reputation.

I believe all these factors are important. Some of the biggest factors that work against Deans I think is that he was a one team coach at provincial level who only coached really one generation of players, never coached in Australia and had question marks over his time as All Blacks assistant coach. I believe Jake White would make a better option than Deans as he has got the runs on the board in both his appointments at International level and provincial level. That being said I think we should only consider a foreign coach when we don't have any equally qualified local alternatives.

That being said, despite all this, Foley will probably somehow bounce his way into an even better job after yet another failure and almost being sacked before bailing on them and ending up being our next coach.

 

[BDA]

Link should be next cab off the rank. the question is when. Clearly 2013 is the year in which the ARU will be forced into making a decision.

The way 2012 unfolded made it very difficult for the ARU to get rid of Deans. Last year's World Cup was a glass half full, glass half empty affair for Australian Rugby. Basically all of us were disappointed with how the team performed, and how the players/squad/tactics were managed, and Deans deservedly shared in the brunt of criticism. Nevertheless finishing 3rd was an unarguably respectable result. Not what we would have wanted, but probably about right given the relatively young age of our team.

After the World Cup, the ARU no doubt adopted a wait and see approach. This was followed by a 3-nil series white wash over Wales which was a good result from whatever angle you approach it. As a result, the ARU was willing to back Deans for the Rugby Championship. What followed was a catastrophic injury crisis. Yet despite the heavy injury toll again the final result was by no means insulting. The performances were poor but the Wallabies still managed to finish above the Boks and Argies with a second string team.

Sacking Deans after the Rugby Championship would have been a bold move. Whilst Deans’ Wallabies have not impressed, they have achieved decent results against all but NZ. There would have been no guarantee that the Deans replacement would do a better job and thus a changing of the guard would have put the wallabies (and its new coaching staff) in a precarious position. Not a lot of time to effect change in the team, with only 4 internationals prior to the Lions’ Series.

2013 will be a different story.

If the Wallabies lose the Lions series, Deans will be gone immediately, no doubt about it.

If the Wallabies win the series it will give them some good momentum and in those circumstances I’d be minded to keep Deans in the drivers seat and see what he can do with that momentum. If the Wallabies win the Lions series it represents the best opportunity in a long time for the wallabies to win the Bledisloe Cup. Furthermore if Deans’ wallabies can beat the lions, you’d back them to finish top of the pool of death in 2015.

Now if despite winning the series the wallabies go on to perform badly in the Rugby Championship, the ARU is left with the perfect (and perhaps only) window of opportunity to sack Deans. The replacement coach would have the end of year tour, all of 2014 and the June tests in 2015 to prepare.

So the point of my post I guess is that decision making for the ARU regarding the coaching position should be easier in 2013 than it was in 2012.

Personally I don’t think Deans has what it takes to lead Australia to World Cup Glory in 2015. Nevertheless, if he wins the lions series next year and then goes on to win the RC or Bledisloe then I’ll change my tune.

 

[Gnostic]

BDA - some serious revisionism in that post.

Firstly there is no way that Link should be handed the Wallabies position. He may well be regarded as the front runner by most, including me, but there must be a thorough and open process to select the candidate that has the best plan and management team to take the team forward, develop players and engage supporters. The rubbish we have now has come about simply because these processes were not followed in Deans initial appointment and his subsequent re-appointment.

The rubbish that Hawker has come out with in the last 24 hours proves what Redshappy and others have been saying for three or more years, corporate governance is lacking in Australian Rugby. Hawker states that he is happy with where Australian Rugby is. Take that to its fullest, he is happy with the dire rubbish play that is driving away even hardened long term fans.

I could not care less if the Wallabies win every game from here to the next RWC if they continue to play as they have. Deans says it isn't about scoring tries, well he is half way there, what he should really have said, is that it isn't about winning, it is about how the team plays the game, and over the past 5 years it has been horrible in one way or another and in the last two years just down right un-watchable.

If Deans runs true to form and at his predictable best, being at least 12 months behind the opposition in terms of game strategy and planning expect a more free flowing style from Deans next year with some different faces in the midfield to McAbe and Co. The basic structures that Scott Allen brilliantly illustrated in his Blog series earlier this year will be changed. I expect we will see a less defence oriented game plan with more attack and the structures will reflect this. However we will see a corresponding decline in the defensive results.

I make these predictions simply on the basis of trend patterns with Deans as a test coach and his response to changes (excepting the ABs) in the modes of play of the opposition. The Boks will be significantly better next year as will the only truely young test teams, England and France, those teams changed their poor patterns of play and blooded new players and came up with a very solid base on which to build. The Wallabies again floundered through and got respectable results (when judged in terms of the myriad of excuses used by the management) enough so that they will avoid and true reform or significant change. I expect more of the same, that is half arsed selection, game plans, bench usage and players management which will all come together once or twice in a season.

 

[TOCC]

I have really grown to dislike Robbie as Wallaby Coach and believe that he should have been sacked months ago, however i think the opportunity has passed to sack him prior to the Lions Tour, if a new coach was to be appointed it should have been done prior to the EOYT... Giving the role to a new coach now would almost be a poisoned chalice, he would have little time to implement his own strategies or coaching plan and would subsequently fail at the Lions tour.

Given that the Wallabies have little in terms of lead up matches prior to the Lions and also that the Super Rugby season is squeezed right up against the tour, i actually think that Robbie is the best person to coach the Wallabies during that period.

Given the caliber of players returning from injury, i hold out hope(naively) that the Wallabies will hit form in 2013.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The Lions series will make or break it for Deans. If we lose, then he'd be gone. If we win, he could well survive until the RWC.

 

[Train Without a Station]

The Lions series will make or break it for Deans. If we lose, then he'd be gone. If we win, he could well survive until the RWC.

Wasn't it sold that the World Cup would be make or break for Deans, and then he was signed beforehand? If that's the case there could a lot of disappointed people when we here about Deans being re-signed in May...

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Wasn't it sold that the World Cup would be make or break for Deans, and then he was signed beforehand? If that's the case there could a lot of disappointed people when we here about Deans being re-signed in May.

Perhaps I should just shoot myself now and be out of my misery. Another year of playing the kind of footy we've been dishing up might just about make me stop watching the Wallabies until a new coach is found.

 

[qwerty51]

Do you think we're playing 'worse' footy than the Boks? Do you not watch their Tests?

 

[gel]

Do you think we're playing 'worse' footy than the Boks? Do you not watch their Tests?

Yes. Most emphatically, yes. Unquestionably yes.

We ARE absolutely playing worse footy than the boks.

The boks are still able to string some decent phases together, catch, pass, tackle, form a structured defensive line, kick accurately for field position, scrum and score tries against other teams repeatedly.

They may not be the prettiest team to be running around at the moment, but the boks execute a game plan (even an ugly one) with some significant level of precision above what we are at the moment.

 

[BDA]

BDA - some serious revisionism in that post.

Firstly there is no way that Link should be handed the Wallabies position. He may well be regarded as the front runner by most, including me, but there must be a thorough and open process to select the candidate that has the best plan and management team to take the team forward, develop players and engage supporters. The rubbish we have now has come about simply because these processes were not followed in Deans initial appointment and his subsequent re-appointment.

The rubbish that Hawker has come out with in the last 24 hours proves what Redshappy and others have been saying for three or more years, corporate governance is lacking in Australian Rugby. Hawker states that he is happy with where Australian Rugby is. Take that to its fullest, he is happy with the dire rubbish play that is driving away even hardened long term fans.

I could not care less if the Wallabies win every game from here to the next RWC if they continue to play as they have. Deans says it isn't about scoring tries, well he is half way there, what he should really have said, is that it isn't about winning, it is about how the team plays the game, and over the past 5 years it has been horrible in one way or another and in the last two years just down right un-watchable.

If Deans runs true to form and at his predictable best, being at least 12 months behind the opposition in terms of game strategy and planning expect a more free flowing style from Deans next year with some different faces in the midfield to McAbe and Co. The basic structures that Scott Allen brilliantly illustrated in his Blog series earlier this year will be changed. I expect we will see a less defence oriented game plan with more attack and the structures will reflect this. However we will see a corresponding decline in the defensive results.

I make these predictions simply on the basis of trend patterns with Deans as a test coach and his response to changes (excepting the ABs) in the modes of play of the opposition. The Boks will be significantly better next year as will the only truely young test teams, England and France, those teams changed their poor patterns of play and blooded new players and came up with a very solid base on which to build. The Wallabies again floundered through and got respectable results (when judged in terms of the myriad of excuses used by the management) enough so that they will avoid and true reform or significant change. I expect more of the same, that is half arsed selection, game plans, bench usage and players management which will all come together once or twice in a season.

Well firstly, I'm not sure whether your rant is aimed at me specifically or you were just using my post as a springboard to air your grievances. If its the latter, I feel your pain (as we are obviously both die hard Wallabies fans). If its the former, please note that my post was not at all meant to be supportive of Deans. I, like you, think he's the wrong man for the job and would like to see him replaced. I simply point out that the ARU (no doubt as a result of their own mistakes) were in a difficult position this year in terms of whether, and if so when, to replace Deans.

Measuring results vs quality of performance is difficult. Above you wrote "I could not care less if the Wallabies win every game from here to the next RWC if they continue to play as they have". This is surely scuttlebutt. If you asked me which I would prefer, to see the wallabies undefeated for 3 years (but playing poorly) or losing games and playing well, I'd chose the former. Ideally you'd have both, and us fans know that we'll never have both with Deans as Coach (which is the major beef from most people on the site). But for the ARU it is a measuring act. They havd to measure results against quality of play, and that made their decision difficult for a variety of reasons outlined in my post.

We blame Deans for the dire state of Aus rugby, but so easily forget the performances of the Aus Super teams this year. Dire would be a major understatement. They were rubbish, save for the Reds. And the derbys were horrible to watch, even those with the Reds playing. On the back of those performances I was expecting the Wallabies to have a horrible year and they have, but the problem goes much deeper than Deans.

Again I'm not writing in support of Deans, merely recognising that 2013 should provide us with a clearer picture going forward. And again should we win the Lions tour and the Bledisloe I'll have regained some confidence in Deans. Although we all know that wont happen.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Do you think we're playing 'worse' footy than the Boks? Do you not watch their Tests?

Yes, we are playing worse footy than the Boks. The kicker for me is that the individuals we have possess the skills to play a much better style of rugby but aren't. They are either incapable of it mentally or it's being coached out of them.

 

[Jets]

Measuring results vs quality of performance is difficult. Above you wrote "I could not care less if the Wallabies win every game from here to the next RWC if they continue to play as they have". This is surely scuttlebutt. If you asked me which I would prefer, to see the wallabies undefeated for 3 years (but playing poorly) or losing games and playing well, I'd chose the former. Ideally you'd have both, and us fans know that we'll never have both with Deans as Coach (which is the major beef from most people on the site). But for the ARU it is a measuring act. They havd to measure results against quality of play, and that made their decision difficult for a variety of reasons outlined in my post.

I have to disagree with you here. If we play an expansive, attacking style of play I will get up at 1am in the morning to watch then give it their best. At the moment I record these games and watch them the next day as I can't get excited as I once did. We aren't England and shouldn't aim to be.
Also if we start playing attacking, expansive rugby I'm pretty sure we'll win more games than we loose and if it's combined with some strong forward play we'll win most games.

 

[Scoey]

Jets that has been the biggest tell tale for me. I no longer get up in the middle of the night to watch the boys go around. I record it and watch it in the morning.

It wasn't that long ago that I'd go to bed and set an alarm to wake up at say 2am only to not need it because I couldn't sleep anyway I was that excited about watching them! Not these days. It got to the point that when the alarm would go off, I'd seriously think about just going back to sleep but eventually get up, only to not be able to sleep AFTER the game coz I was so angry and wound up!