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Peter Sullivan (51)
Gits has been around for a while, is he actually worse now? or have the others around him got better?
Giteau Spitting Dummy again???
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Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Giteau's ongoing problem, as many of us started to say on forums not long after he cemented a Wallaby spot, was that he had a predilection to seek the outside break. As faster opponents realised this they escorted him to the touchline.
At the elite level he never mastered the counters to it, running straight for starters, stepping inside drifting defenders, doing the Beale chip and yarda, yarda. He used men outside him but not enough, which was a pity as he could use the ball when he wanted to.
At the lower Super level he got away with it and played some superb games for the Brumbies before he left, and the Force. Now he's back at the Brumbies and looking a step or two slower, and known better, he does not have the same mojo. It follows that he is not having the same effect at the test level either.
It was clear 5 years ago that the quest for the outside break was a problem and one wouldn't have minded $10 for every time one had mentioned it. One can only conclude that he has been poorly coached at the elite level and part of the problem I think, without any knowledge, is that he has been treated as the golden child.
One of the many things I hoped for when Deans came on board was to play Barnes at 10 and Giteau at 12, where they played to effect in the pool game against Wales after Bernie was hurt - and to correct Giteau's blowfly-at-the-window end runs at inside centre. But he had Giteau at 10 and Barnes at 12 from the first game, and then when he won the first Bledisloe match of his tenure in 2008 they were still there. That happy result meant that Giteau's incumbency at flyhalf was extended. I also meant that a move to 12 and correction of the end run were delayed also.
With the advent of Cooper, Gits was parked one out, and gradually the young guns JOC (James O'Connor) and Beale and a straight running AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13 made it crystal clear that Giteau was a bad fit with them, and that they, not he, were the future. This was disguised at first because too often the forwards didn't show up and many of the backs looked bad, but eventually he was dropped.
Unlike others, I don't think it is too late for this talented player to be corrected. I am puzzled as to why several coaches of professional teams, Deans included, have not succeeded. I can't think of a case where Deans has persevered so long with a fault of one player, unless the non-improvement of Mehrtens' defence qualifies.
Let's hope that he can straighten up, in more ways than one, because an injury or two could mean that he is the ringmaster again.
At the elite level he never mastered the counters to it, running straight for starters, stepping inside drifting defenders, doing the Beale chip and yarda, yarda. He used men outside him but not enough, which was a pity as he could use the ball when he wanted to.
At the lower Super level he got away with it and played some superb games for the Brumbies before he left, and the Force. Now he's back at the Brumbies and looking a step or two slower, and known better, he does not have the same mojo. It follows that he is not having the same effect at the test level either.
It was clear 5 years ago that the quest for the outside break was a problem and one wouldn't have minded $10 for every time one had mentioned it. One can only conclude that he has been poorly coached at the elite level and part of the problem I think, without any knowledge, is that he has been treated as the golden child.
One of the many things I hoped for when Deans came on board was to play Barnes at 10 and Giteau at 12, where they played to effect in the pool game against Wales after Bernie was hurt - and to correct Giteau's blowfly-at-the-window end runs at inside centre. But he had Giteau at 10 and Barnes at 12 from the first game, and then when he won the first Bledisloe match of his tenure in 2008 they were still there. That happy result meant that Giteau's incumbency at flyhalf was extended. I also meant that a move to 12 and correction of the end run were delayed also.
With the advent of Cooper, Gits was parked one out, and gradually the young guns JOC (James O'Connor) and Beale and a straight running AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13 made it crystal clear that Giteau was a bad fit with them, and that they, not he, were the future. This was disguised at first because too often the forwards didn't show up and many of the backs looked bad, but eventually he was dropped.
Unlike others, I don't think it is too late for this talented player to be corrected. I am puzzled as to why several coaches of professional teams, Deans included, have not succeeded. I can't think of a case where Deans has persevered so long with a fault of one player, unless the non-improvement of Mehrtens' defence qualifies.
Let's hope that he can straighten up, in more ways than one, because an injury or two could mean that he is the ringmaster again.
D
daz
Guest
Good post Lee.
I tend to look at this from a "what is more likely" senario, rather than just saying Gits should be shown the door. With respect to several forum members, in the same way there was nil chance of Deans giving Baxter and Dunning a recall in the 2010 series despite many protests on these boards and in full light of our piggie problems, likewise Deans will ensure Gits remains in the 2011 squad in one form or another, again despite many protests on these boards. Why? Because we are one major injury away from Gits starting every test.
Barnes had a good year physically (probably because of his reduced playing load) but remember that the man is historically a walking soft tissue injury magnet.
So with that in mind, and while I am no guru, I am willing to bet a penny to a pound that the above quote from Lee will come to fruition at some point in 2011.
If Deans, Friend and Co cannot do anything about it, it seems that the only way to address this from a team perspective is for Rocky and the major ball carriers such as AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Cooper, Barnes, Mitchell, JOC (James O'Connor), etc to have a word with him. I also think that Gits is a professional rugby player and while he may be the new sookface MkII, I refuse to believe he puts himself above the team. Even if he did, the new breed of uber-young guns woukld just not stand for it.
Short of that, I see no other viable outcomes.
Torn Hammy
Johnnie Wallace (23)
Sorry but I would like to stick up for Giteau.
Giteau's game is built on speed, and he has scored many incisive tries that demonstrated his unique precocious skills. So what has happened?
Firstly, Quade Cooper is an inside centre's nightmare. Typically on receiving the ball Cooper will, slide , show the ball, jink, dummy, fade and then change his mind about taking on the opposition and give a last second pass to his flat footed centre. Giteau has no idea when he is going to get the ball from Cooper, but knows that a percentage of the passes mean serious pain as they are last second crash balls. This has totally destroed Giteau's speed and confidence in attack, just as it did to Barnes in 2009 S14. Watching Ella, Larkham, and Noddy you will see that they either passed immediately or attacked the line and only passed if they broke or half broke the defences. As inside centre you know you will get the ball immediately, so you can time your run, or you pause for a second and back up hoping for a pass on the other side of the defence.
Secondly, Cooper's lack of ticker in defence also means giteau has to cover the pivot/IC channel as well as his own centre channel which again makes him look flat footed and slow, a fate that beset Tirunui when he played outside Cooper and made him look very ordinary. It is important to understand that Cooper just doesn't miss tackles- he avoids them also. Really, I find it incomprehensible that the Australian team has a player who can't tackle.
Thirdly, defences these days is a lot tougher. In the SA, NZ and Fijian tests Giteau was taken out late or off the ball at least once each game. There was a time when players like Giteau were protected by the refs or by hardnuts in the team but for some reason people just expect him to " man up". The ever improving compressed defensive lines also make it harder for someone Giteau's size to break the line.
Finally, I believe that if Deans was to put Beale at pivot, then we would once again see the Giteau of old.
Giteau's game is built on speed, and he has scored many incisive tries that demonstrated his unique precocious skills. So what has happened?
Firstly, Quade Cooper is an inside centre's nightmare. Typically on receiving the ball Cooper will, slide , show the ball, jink, dummy, fade and then change his mind about taking on the opposition and give a last second pass to his flat footed centre. Giteau has no idea when he is going to get the ball from Cooper, but knows that a percentage of the passes mean serious pain as they are last second crash balls. This has totally destroed Giteau's speed and confidence in attack, just as it did to Barnes in 2009 S14. Watching Ella, Larkham, and Noddy you will see that they either passed immediately or attacked the line and only passed if they broke or half broke the defences. As inside centre you know you will get the ball immediately, so you can time your run, or you pause for a second and back up hoping for a pass on the other side of the defence.
Secondly, Cooper's lack of ticker in defence also means giteau has to cover the pivot/IC channel as well as his own centre channel which again makes him look flat footed and slow, a fate that beset Tirunui when he played outside Cooper and made him look very ordinary. It is important to understand that Cooper just doesn't miss tackles- he avoids them also. Really, I find it incomprehensible that the Australian team has a player who can't tackle.
Thirdly, defences these days is a lot tougher. In the SA, NZ and Fijian tests Giteau was taken out late or off the ball at least once each game. There was a time when players like Giteau were protected by the refs or by hardnuts in the team but for some reason people just expect him to " man up". The ever improving compressed defensive lines also make it harder for someone Giteau's size to break the line.
Finally, I believe that if Deans was to put Beale at pivot, then we would once again see the Giteau of old.
Groucho
Greg Davis (50)
There is an element of truth in that. Cooper is instinctively a wide distributor. Beale is instinctively a close distributor. Giteau running straight off Beale could be very successful.
vidiot
John Solomon (38)
If Giteau's game is built on speed, then that advantage is evaporating, and I'm glad that Cooper isn't just shuffling the ball to him to watch him try to race to the corner flag and come last.
There are probably elements of truth there, but I would add that Giteau has been ordinary this year with and without Cooper, admittedly at 10 for most of that, and that other 12s have looked good beside Cooper - obviously Fainga'a A and Barnes B.
Cooper may have been Giteau's worst nightmare, but it would appear that the rest of the backline thrives.
Giteau's skills were precocious in 2002. Now he is a veteran and they are a memory. I hope to see them again, but I hope to see the wallabies backline fire more.
T
TOCC
Guest
Except Giteaus form decline started well and truly before Quade was even starting at 5/8
D
daz
Guest
With all due respect to both your argument and Morgs, he was a defensive liability his whole career as well. He still played 20 tests and became vice-captain. This year for the Reds, Morgs was well able to make himself look ordinary without any assistance from Cooper. Old slow legs unable to "see" the vision, or keep up.
Sorry, that is nonsense. Genia, Mitchell and JOC (James O'Connor) (all roughly the same body size or smaller) seem to do it with ease.
Look at the Mitchell try late in the second half against the Frogs. Barnes to Beale to Mitchell. All in a handful of straight steps designed to draw the defensive line then quick passes out wide. Compare that to Gits in his cameo, who ran sideways towards the line for 20 metres. What the hell was JOC (James O'Connor) supposed to do at that point? Nowhere to turn, run or step, plus half the defensive line was waiting for the telegraphed move to come to a conclusion.
I may be wrong, but the structure of the team suits Barnes and his straightening runs and passes to wide ball carriers.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
Yeah the 2009 TN was really the watershed for him as flyhalf. He played reasonably well in the early tests against Italy and France, but against New Zealand and South Africa he was under the pump the whole tournament.
Probably didn't help in Auckland with erratic service from Burgess but he was flustered a lot of the time and outplayed in all four games against the ABs, especially in Sydney. Similar against South Africa, and even though he scored a few tries against them, he couldn't run the back-line effectively. Decision making was all out of sorts against the Boks in Brisbane, and when Cooper came on as a replacement, even for only 20 minutes at or so at Perth, the difference was night and day.
Serviceable against England, Ireland, and Wales on the EOYT, but the game against Scotland was really the low point. He got moved to 12 for this year and so it went.
I'd love to see Giteau come back and prove all the doubters wrong. But he's got to get himself away and unwind. Have a good off season with the Brumbies and then show what he's got on the field next year. He can still be a valuable player for the Wallabies in the upcoming RWC.
T
TOCC
Guest
I would also love to see Giteau back and be in top form again, whether he is starting or on the bench, it would be awesome for the Wallabies just to have that sort of depth in there backline for next year.
Richo
John Thornett (49)
Is there anyone who DOESN'T want Gits to regain top-form, straighten the attack and be a consistently world-class 12? The point is that he's been in decline for a while and hasn't regained form as a starter. If he regains real form -- not just scoring a few tries but straight running, linebreaks, offloads, etc. -- in Super rugby he'll be an asset at the RWC. Otherwise, he'll see the last 10 minutes of games.
rsea
Darby Loudon (17)
I've had similar thoughts but they're factors holding Giteau back from returning to form rather than what took his form from him in the first place. Also, Australian Rugby needs a 12 capable of running off Cooper and covering him (to some extent) in defence. Giteau hasn't been able to do this so it comes down to a decision between Giteau and Cooper.
Just for back ground I think Giteau's game was damaged when he was converted to Fly Half. He only ever shone there against weak opposition and it seems to have affected his ability to play 12 effectively.
The lesson is you don't take players who excel in one position and attempt to convert them to another, just as we shouldn't take our now excellent full back and try to convert him back into a fly half.
Torn Hammy
Johnnie Wallace (23)
I would like to add that Matt Giteau won the prestegious John Eales medal as the Wallabies' most outstanding player in October 2009. So please don't use the argument that his decline has been a long term thing.
DPK
Peter Sullivan (51)
Yes, and we can remember how deserving we all thought he was on G&GR. Can someone dig up the reactions?
In short, that was BS.
BrumbiesPolynesian
Fred Wood (13)
I will throw a name out there - In Christian Lealiifano....what about him @ Inside Centre and Giteau back to Flyhalf.....Cooper as great as he is on attack, is going to get found out in defence and teams will work plans around that info to just run big boys at him.....I would have Giteau and Lealiifano, firstly tested @ Super Rugby and then given a chance in Test Rugby....Lealiifano is a big body and also a good distributor...from what I saw in ITM Cup he performed very well for Waikato, it was just a shame they had to choose a Local Player ahead of him.....
R
Rothschild
Guest
So how do we explain how he was still playing shite at #10?
Godfrey
Phil Hardcastle (33)
Seems weird that the players who were, you know, actually there playing with him voted for him then. If only they'd had a chance to read the much more accurate grumblings of a select few forum posters who will complain after any win, loss or draw.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
Some fair points there. Well respected by his team mates, and obviously rated as player's player going into the Grand Slam tilt.
You'd also be right to say that talk can be cheap on these internet forums. Yet I still think that the signs from the 09 Trinations were clear that there was no spark, and that Gits was not on top of his form. He was still the mainstay of the team's scoring with his goal kicking and the occasional brilliant line-break for a try. But he was also taking bad options and was well-beaten against the Bok and AB sides throughout the tournament.
He wasn't on his own there, frankly, being in a losing side (easy to type from the keyboard, I know).
Somewhere along the line, Deans came to the view that Giteau was no longer the answer at 10. Whether that was towards the end of 09, over the break or in the succeeding provincial lead-up, who exactly knows? People can argue whether the coach was right or wrong but ultimately he made that call.
Groucho
Greg Davis (50)
I wouldn't pair Gits and Lilo in a club game.
Groucho
Greg Davis (50)
Haha, that is true. There has been some quite inventive moaning since the France game.
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