GAGR Vote - Should Deans go after the EOYT?

[rugbyisfun]

Naaawwwww , he can stay...

 

[ChargerWA]

Does anyone have a copy of his pre-game interview. Back to his baffling nonsensical "saying 1000 words but actually saying nothing" best.

The truth of it is I actually feel quite sorry for Deans. He seems like a nice bloke, but he has been exposed as not of adequate caliber for coaching international rugby. His stint at Crusaders was made easy by basically coaching the AB's lite in a provincial competition.

I actually think he is an excellent identifier of talent, but when it comes to selections and game plans he is found wanting, which is exacerbated by his poor use of assistant coaches.

 

[Jets]

Well put, RH.
But do we actually know what thought and / or discussion has gone on with regard to the coach, apart from oft-posted rumours on here about "he needs to win the next game, or 2 games or whatever", no disrespect to Jets and others who have posted such rumours? I struggle to believe the process is so capricious. I think it's more likely that the complete lack of transparency and accountability leads us all to hypothesise about such odd decision-making processes, or indeed lack thereof. My real concern is the possibility that a successor has been all but anointed, save for a token talent quest, and that it is Nucifora, and the silence from the ARU is more ominous. But that is just hypothesis on my part!

Part of the reason I posted what I heard was because of the ridiculousness of it. While I don't think Deans should be the coach I also think a decision should be made before the tour or on the return. If you had faith in him when he left these shores he needs all 4 games to show his wares. While the team did will to win the game against England the disappointment of the France game should still have a dramatic effect on the assessment made on the return of the team.

 

[Newter]

Unfortunately most posters by anguish or innocently are missing the fundamental point: over at least the last two years, the ARU has made it perfectly, indeed unyieldingly, clear that it is generally happy with the standards of Deans' coaching and its outcomes. Only recently upon JON's resignation, the ARU Chairman declared that he/it was 'very happy' with Robbie Deans. After the RWC, the ARU issued no statement of regret or real concern over the outcome to rugby fans, it just moved on.

The ARU either believes that better standards than those achieved by Deans are essentially not possible, or that no better alternative is available, or, by self-preserving group-think, it refuses to admit error and values the preservation of its own face and 'position at the head of rugby' above any other value or standard.

The fact that, or facts like, 75% of 12,000 Fairfax rugby readers agreed that Deans should go appears to have no impact whatever on ARU thinking. Rather, its actual demonstrable course of conduct is that, after five years of Deans, it continues to know best what is right for the code and its fans.

Those five years of Deans have included some of the best Wallabies victories in pro history. And I'd be surprised if many of those 12,000 Fairfax readers weren't new fans as of last year, given the huge following the 2011 side generated leading up to the world cup. That was because of some great victories and great play, under Deans's coaching.

Let me pose you the hypothetical: take Steve Hansen's best 5 players away, would he still look like a supercoach?

What Deans has achieved this year has been pretty remarkable.

 

[Newter]

Does anyone have a copy of his pre-game interview. Back to his baffling nonsensical "saying 1000 words but actually saying nothing" best.

The truth of it is I actually feel quite sorry for Deans. He seems like a nice bloke, but he has been exposed as not of adequate caliber for coaching international rugby. His stint at Crusaders was made easy by basically coaching the AB's lite in a provincial competition.

I actually think he is an excellent identifier of talent, but when it comes to selections and game plans he is found wanting, which is exacerbated by his poor use of assistant coaches.

This is the guy who selected and developed Richie McCaw and Dan Carter in 2002 and 2003, before they became superstars. He got the best out of players who never made it to the All Blacks beyond one or two appearances: guys like Mose Tuiali'i and Scott Hamilton, who consistently dominated in Super rugby. He fixed Quade Cooper on the NH tour of 2009 when people thought he was just a goose with a mullet.

I think the game plan discipline would be there if we hadn't lost virtually the entire leadership of the side to injury this year.

 

[Gnostic]

Those five years of Deans have included some of the best Wallabies victories in pro history. And I'd be surprised if many of those 12,000 Fairfax readers weren't new fans as of last year, given the huge following the 2011 side generated leading up to the world cup. That was because of some great victories and great play, under Deans's coaching.

Let me pose you the hypothetical: take Steve Hansen's best 5 players away, would he still look like a supercoach?

What Deans has achieved this year has been pretty remarkable.

Really name these victories. I can name one against France in 2010, and even that is in question because of the unhappy French squad at the time. I am sure those victories you name as some of the best in Wallabies Pro history are gritty bounce back wins after the capitulations of the weeks before.So they were really only great in terms of the contrast with the dross of the week before. At no time in 5 years have we seen a complete well executed game plan, efficient use of the bench or a considered balanced approach to selection bearing in mind the game plan to be played.
Tell me what huge following did they generate? I saw a decline in following compared with previous RWC, and a loss of interest after the pools rounds because of the dire tactics employed by the Wallabies and the poor execution of that plan. Again what great play and victories are you talking about?

The only remarkable thing Deans has achieved throughout his tenure with the ARU is an amazing ability to totally avoid consequences for the total failure to perform or meet stated goals.

Are you serious about Hansen? There are more than a few in NZ questioning quite a bit of what he has done already. But at least his side has played to plan and performed. They didn't lose games in humiliating style against 2nd and 3rd tier opponents who with respect didn't play all that well on the nights of their victories. Given the differences in the sides that have accumulated these losses, and the turn over in the "assistant" coaches the only common denominator is the Head Coach - but of course he can't be responsible, he certainly has never has accepted any.

 

[qwerty51]

This is the guy who selected and developed Richie McCaw and Dan Carter in 2002 and 2003, before they became superstars.

You think they wouldn't be there were now without Deans?

 

[It is what it is]

Those five years of Deans have included some of the best Wallabies victories in pro history. And I'd be surprised if many of those 12,000 Fairfax readers weren't new fans as of last year, given the huge following the 2011 side generated leading up to the world cup. That was because of some great victories and great play, under Deans's coaching.

Let me pose you the hypothetical: take Steve Hansen's best 5 players away, would he still look like a supercoach?

What Deans has achieved this year has been pretty remarkable.

Definition of "Remarkable" - worthy of attention.
Yep, what he's achieved this year is absolutely and definitely worthy of attention.

 

[I like to watch]

I thought the win was a good one.
Anyone calling for RD's sacking on the back of that game is being churlish.
Suck it up, death ride him all you like but don't whinge after a good win.
We all know there will be plenty of opportunities in the future to stick the boot in.

 

[Jets]

I thought the win was a good one.
Anyone calling for RD's sacking on the back of that game is being churlish.
Suck it up, death ride him all you like but don't whinge after a good win.
We all know there will be plenty of opportunities in the future to stick the boot in.

I don't think anyone is asking for Deans to be sacked as a result of the game v England. In isolation it was a good victory and the performance by the team would be acceptable. It's the 5 years of inconsistent performances that lead up to that game that are the major factors in quite a few of us wanting change. The game v Scotland to start the year, the first 2 games against the AB's, the game against South Africa in South Africa and the game v France last week all factor in the call for change. The fact that we could have beaten the AB's in Brisbane but waited for their mistake rather that trying to win the game off our own bat.
Apart from the Wales seres where the team was ok and a 3-0 series win was great, the England game is the only real positive of the year for the Wallabies.

 

[I like to watch]

I get where you are coming from Jets,I am a Tahs supporter, so antipathy for the coach is not an alien experience for me.
I just think the haters should hold their fire after a good win.It's not like they will be starved of opportunities, I don't think anyone thinks this is the start of a long winning streak.

 

[Newter]

Really name these victories. I can name one against France in 2010, and even that is in question because of the unhappy French squad at the time. I am sure those victories you name as some of the best in Wallabies Pro history are gritty bounce back wins after the capitulations of the weeks before.So they were really only great in terms of the contrast with the dross of the week before. At no time in 5 years have we seen a complete well executed game plan, efficient use of the bench or a considered balanced approach to selection bearing in mind the game plan to be played.
Tell me what huge following did they generate? I saw a decline in following compared with previous RWC, and a loss of interest after the pools rounds because of the dire tactics employed by the Wallabies and the poor execution of that plan. Again what great play and victories are you talking about?

The only remarkable thing Deans has achieved throughout his tenure with the ARU is an amazing ability to totally avoid consequences for the total failure to perform or meet stated goals.

Are you serious about Hansen? There are more than a few in NZ questioning quite a bit of what he has done already. But at least his side has played to plan and performed. They didn't lose games in humiliating style against 2nd and 3rd tier opponents who with respect didn't play all that well on the nights of their victories. Given the differences in the sides that have accumulated these losses, and the turn over in the "assistant" coaches the only common denominator is the Head Coach - but of course he can't be responsible, he certainly has never has accepted any.

In 2008 we belted the All Blacks 34-19 in Sydney. That was one of our best wins over NZ in pro history. The 2011 Trinations decider, an epic win with three of the best tries we've scored against the All Blacks. That win in Hong Kong in 2010 at the death, a great victory. He is by far and away the best coach we've had against the Springboks - great wins in the Republic in 2008, that huge one in 2010 when we scored about four tries, and the quarterfinal epic in 2011.

Wins at Twickenham: 2008, 2009, 2012.

He's achieved this during a major transition phase when we've simply been without good senior leadership (Giteau? Elsom?) and are only now blessed with strong leaders, all of whom have missed most of the year.

 

[Newter]

Are you serious about Hansen? There are more than a few in NZ questioning quite a bit of what he has done already. But at least his side has played to plan and performed. They didn't lose games in humiliating style against 2nd and 3rd tier opponents who with respect didn't play all that well on the nights of their victories. Given the differences in the sides that have accumulated these losses, and the turn over in the "assistant" coaches the only common denominator is the Head Coach - but of course he can't be responsible, he certainly has never has accepted any.

Well I'm a fan of Hansen, even if you aren't. But Hansen has got disciplined, focused performances out of the All Blacks because he's had an almost injury-free ride. Remove McCaw, Dan Carter, Dagg and Read and he would be travelling about as well as Robbie if not considerably worse.

 

[Newter]

You think they wouldn't be there were now without Deans?

Possibly not. He was the one who coached them in preseason, gave them the fundamentals, he inculcated them in a title-winning Super rugby side in 2002, and as All Blacks assistant coach he and John Mitchell gave them their introduction to Test rugby. It seems to be extraordinarily miserly to deny Deans credit for his significant role in their development.

 

[numbertwo]

a long time ago you guys unveiled his self-promotion (in terms of self-confidence) to me. It was the biggest load of gibbering bullshit I have ever heard in my life. From that moment he was gone in my eyes. i have coached God know how many teams. Number 1 rule: don't babble shit!

 

[Da Munch]

FWIW my answer is still yes.
Forced changes to the side due to injuries isn't intelligent coaching, it's luck. Plus how many tries did we get? 1 (should of been 2) How long were we in England’s 22? 4:21 for 1 try which came from within the wallabies half, there obviously isn't any attack planning done at all if we can't get a try in 4:21. And if we have England’s scrum getting penalised 5m out you don't take the kick, you demoralise them by calling for another scrum and then with luck we get a penalty try (maybe this has more to do with sharpie than deans but it should of been discussed at least) it's not like it hasn't happened to us recently - it happened 7 days prior in france :X

 

[Gnostic]

In 2008 we belted the All Blacks 34-19 in Sydney. That was one of our best wins over NZ in pro history. The 2011 Trinations decider, an epic win with three of the best tries we've scored against the All Blacks. That win in Hong Kong in 2010 at the death, a great victory. He is by far and away the best coach we've had against the Springboks - great wins in the Republic in 2008, that huge one in 2010 when we scored about four tries, and the quarterfinal epic in 2011.

Wins at Twickenham: 2008, 2009, 2012.

He's achieved this during a major transition phase when we've simply been without good senior leadership (Giteau? Elsom?) and are only now blessed with strong leaders, all of whom have missed most of the year.

Win in 2008 - followed by utter capitulation in Wellington where the team didn't even turn up. The game was over by 20 minutes. Win in HK for the dead rubber - a game the ABs didn't play anywhere near the level they had previously, followed by a tour that had more poor performance losses including to Scotland.

Thes best coach against the Springboks when he was up against the worst coach they have ever fielded. The best coach who has also achieve the worst ever loss to that team.

On every apex in performance you name there is a corresponding nadir. Under Deans the performance totally bipolar, there is no consistancy that truly great coaching systems bring. The achievements of the sides under his control are impressive the more so because they have been achieved against the additional adversity of Deans incompetence.

 

[p.Tah]

Gnostic, given that there are no test matches after the Spring Tour before the Lions, is it too late to make the change now? Have we missed the boat?
Who would you vote for as the next Wallabies coach?

 

[Gnostic]

Gnostic, given that there are no test matches after the Spring Tour before the Lions, is it too late to make the change now? Have we missed the boat?
Who would you vote for as the next Wallabies coach?

Indeed, IMO it is too late for the Lions tour no matter what happens now. A new coach would be on a hiding to nothing perhaps, though that is not certain by any means, if he can get some time with them via their Super teams and those teams play a decent brand of Rugby (which I think will be the case).

Here is the great folly of the ARU, or perhaps their dark intent. Make it too late to change.

I really want to be the glass half full type so I will say change in any case, and as a previous poster said, it can't be worse than the shite we have been served 9.5 time out of ten. If we get a change and play with intent and try I would be happy, even if they lose the series. I have lost all confidence a long time ago, in Deans, and really find it difficult to even watch the games the Wallabies play now. If they won the series playing the rubbish we have been watching for 5 years I think it may well be the end of Rugby for me and many others in Australia.

So yes. Change, even if the Lions tour was in January as long as we at least try to play with intent. If there isn't going to be any real change in mode of play why bother changing.

Therefore that narrows the list of candidates and assistants appreciably. I know I could accept Link as the best candidate, but as with my other post I accepted Deans appointment as well. There MUST be a rigorous process to search for and select the best candidate. The next coach must come into the job with the process in his selection having the utmost integrity. If that is Link so be it, but by no means should he be the only candidate.

Given the lateness of the hour, any process now would compromise not only the Wallabies but any other side the incoming candidate would be leaving, unless he continues in that role for the coming season as well. Can I see it happening? No. I don;t think the ARU ever seriously entertained the idea of sacking Deans, even with their reviews and leaked stories of pressure on the coach. That was all so much bullshit designed to disperse and redirect the angst of the fans and some journos. We are stuck with Deans until the end of the Lions tour.

 

[Roundawhile]

I no longer believe the ARU is capable of running a rigorous anything!

Until we get an Independant Commision nothing will change.

How can it? the same people who have allowed our game to be dragged down to its current depths the way they have are not going to change overnight.