Force vs Waratahs - Super Rugby R17 2013

[qwerty51]

The Super Rugby is a competition whose integrity must be upheld. Already seen uproar over teams resting. Imagine if the Tahs were in finals contention and the Force played those uncapped players on Sunday. NZ and SA would go into meltdown. Respect a competition.

The Lions games was an exhibition game that had no meaningful result.

 

[Braveheart81]

The other not insignificant dimension to this issue jay-c is surely this: the ARU and RugbyWA invited paying fans to attend Wednesday's match in a large (for Perth) stadium taking upwards of 40,000 fans to see a 'once in every 12 years' event with big advance billing. These RUs were more than happy to attempt to maximise their $ earnings from this game, and in fact 35,000 fans bought tickets, some 3 times the rough average of Force S15 crowds this year.

To the best of my knowledge, at no stage prior to this game was it advertised that in fact it was likely these fans would see a highly diluted version of the Force filled with debutants and second-stringers that had in aggregate rarely if ever played a Super 15 game together.

I don't believe the 35,000 have been offered refunds after the inevitably weak display by the Force Lite (where only 7 more points were scored by the local team than was the case as scored by the largely amateur team forming WA Rugby in 2001 despite the professional Force having been in continuous existence since 2006. That 7-points-over-12-years gain is pathetic frankly given this history).

So, IMO, there was a major issue of commercial integrity involved wrt the paying public's support of this match. Let alone the fact that this diluted version of the Force as witnessed would surely have created few new converts to rugby in WA.

Using your ratio, around 12,000 people are going to pay exactly the same money to see the Super Rugby game on Sunday (almost all of which would have also been there on Wednesday night) and deserve the same value for money (as they're paying the same price).

Your 7 points over 12 years gain completely ignores the fact that they let in 47 less points. That is not insignificant.

Or is allowing the Lions to score less tries also detracting from the spetators' value for money?

 

[Moono75]

I think we should all hold station on the merits of this till we see the result on Sunday. A Force loss now would be unacceptable and would show that it was a strategic miscalculation to split the squad for the two games. Quite frankly I think all players would have put their hands up to play both games.

We will also need to look at how our other S15 sides fair against the Lions.

 

[Morton]

Interesting argument ta from both sides but if you look to next Tuesday in Newcastle 25-30 thousand people are going to watch the lions play a combined nsw qld country team, who are not likely to win. They are going to watch country give it their all against the might of the lions. As long as country have a go no one will care but they will remember the occasion.

 

[Morton]

Plus force fans should watch as there is two of your own team playing

 

[GaffaCHinO]

so what happens if the lions put 50 points on the reds?

 

[Braveheart81]

so what happens if the lions put 50 points on the reds?

Presumably a legacy issue from when Michael Foley played for them that they still haven't recovered from.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

the simple fact that he has named a stronger team for this weekend is where my argument gains credibility
dunno if u noticed the comment on rugby hq along the lines that suggested godwin wasnt happy about being left out.

and the reason i care so much is because i support australian rugby
and i feel for guys who have dedicated their lives to a sport i love and because tomorrow most of them will be nobodies- and yet, they could have been somebodies
fyi- the reds arnt my team either

You haven't answered my question. Who could have come in to the team? Has the team been named for Sunday yet?

As for your second paragraph, mate it's a meaningless tour game. I repeat my previous call: given the fact that we've been unable to win more than a few Super rugby games this year means our chances of beating the Lions were always going to be slim. The Reds might knock them off this weekend, though. The team they've selected looks pretty decent.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

What about "the story of the 1913 US Open" indeed, jay-c? Good point. I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up. Too many people have short memories. It went to five sets as I recall. And that was in the days before the overhead serve was introduced.
.

Did you have some good seats at the Open, Bruce?

 

[Sandpit Fan]

I think a few of us are getting caught up with the romance of the amateur era of the game and forgetting that these days, it's all about the commercial side of rugby and keeping sponsors happy so they keep tipping in.

Let's not forget that without the money that comes from the S15 broadcast agreements, none of the Aussie teams would have a pot to piss in, and there would still be only NSW & Qld provincial teams playing once a year. Forget the Brumbies, Force, Rebels, because they wouldn't have been formed due to a lack of money.

So when the Force decide that they should put their best team in the competition that actually pays the bills, no one should be surprised. Doesn't matter if it's 10th vs 13th, or 1st vs 2nd.

If this had been the Reds or Brumbies forced to play this midweek game, and then play each other on the weekend, and Mckenzie or White picked a 2nd string team to face the Lions the same as Foley (and don't kid yourselves, with 1st & 2nd in the conference on the line, they would have done exactly the same thing), there wouldn't be a murmur on the forums.

The dislike for Foley seems to over-riding the reality of the situation here. They were never going to beat the Lions, and no one gives a rats arse about a gallant defeat, whether by 5 points or 55.

If the game had been on the Force bye weekend, and they got dusted with a full strength team you blokes would still be after his throat for not giving a few up & coming debutantes a once in a lifetime opportunity to have a crack against the Lions!

There's plenty of blame to go around, take your pick:

• B&I Lions for bending to crass commercial reality and playing the Baa-Baa's game in HK, on the Force bye weekend, just because HSBC wanted an exhibition game in their hometown.
• ARU for agreeing to let it happen, and picking up $500k for dropping their pants.
• ARU for scheduling the Lions tour while the S15 is running.
• Force management for directing Foley to prioritise the competition game. This isn't solely Foleys decision.

 

[Bessa]

4pm Sydney time.

Rumour has it, Tah's love a Sunday afternoon game..... Does it matter where it is played, is the the question.

 

[Sully]

You're in business. You have a meeting with your biggest clients and one with some guys who only come to town every now and then. Which is most important.

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Obviously a few of you aren't very good at analogues and worse at twisting then to your own ends.
The forces biggest customers is SANZAR and super Rugby and the lions are guys who are not around much. Glory doesn't pay the bills SANZAR does. Anyone who'd suggest that the Force should trot out a full strength side for a friendly against the lion and then put out a club team for the actual comp they compete in is a fool.

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[mark_s]

Obviously a few of you aren't very good at analogues and worse at twisting then to your own ends.
The forces biggest customers is SANZAR and super Rugby and the lions are guys who are not around much. Glory doesn't pay the bills SANZAR does. Anyone who'd suggest that the Force should trot out a full strength side for a friendly against the lion and then put out a club team for the actual comp they compete in is a fool.

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But sully, the SOO players played Wednesday night and most are backing up again this weekend. Why couldnt the Force have backed up?

 

[qwerty51]

I actually would've liked to see Drew captain this game, bit of a send off. Maybe he can do the Lions one.

 

[jay-c]

You haven't answered my question. Who could have come in to the team? Has the team been named for Sunday yet?

forgive me ive been busy today

heath tessman, pek cowan, wykes, alcock,mathewson, eberson, godwin and probably rasolea could have strengthened the team
dont know about mmm as im not sure of his injury- but if godwin was pissed he didnt play im sure his injury wasnt as bad as made out
no point in going round in circles, ive made my point
i say by not trying to win the game he has wronged every stakeholder, disagree if u must but its over now anyway

 

[qwerty51]

ok jay be honest, how much would those players have added, maybe lost by 30 and not 50?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The tight five went OK in the game and weren't clearly outplayed by the Lions and the back row went pretty well with Hodgo and Brown prominent. The gulf was really in the backs on only Godwin would have substantially improved things. So no, I don't believe those players would have changed the outcome.

 

[jay-c]

its not the names of the players that count guys
its more the fact that they have played together week in week out all season> knowing they can trust the man next to them in the defensive line because theyve done the job against the reds and the crusaders etc,
this is the point ive been trying to get across> a smaller well organised defense can overcome a larger disorganized attack.
however you break one link in the chain and the chain loses all its strength
the force had a chance because they could have fielded an established well organised defensive line and the lions should have had their attack pressured. think of almost every upset victory that comes to mind and im sure you'll agree more often than not upsets occour because of defensive pressure and the losers walk away saying they "wernt allowed to play their game"

 

[Richo]

Is this thread about the Lions playing the Force, or just an excuse for nonsensical analogies?

No, I read the title again. It's about the Waratahs playing the Force.

I reckon the Tahs will struggle in this one. Even though the back line is strong, our pack is pretty weak and the Force are hard workers.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

its not the names of the players that count guys
its more the fact that they have played together week in week out all season> knowing they can trust the man next to them in the defensive line because theyve done the job against the reds and the crusaders etc,
this is the point ive been trying to get across> a smaller well organised defense can overcome a larger disorganized attack.
however you break one link in the chain and the chain loses all its strength
the force had a chance because they could have fielded an established well organised defensive line and the lions should have had their attack pressured. think of almost every upset victory that comes to mind and im sure you'll agree more often than not upsets occour because of defensive pressure and the losers walk away saying they "wernt allowed to play their game"

You know what, you're right. We were certainties to win and Foley fucked it for all of us. Sack him now.