The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
Turn it up Jay-C. That is one of the most hyperbolic overreactions I think I've ever seen. They had no shot at victory at any stage. Instead of 69-17 it might have been 45-20.
Force vs Waratahs - Super Rugby R17 2013
- Thread starter Braveheart81
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Turn it up Jay-C. That is one of the most hyperbolic overreactions I think I've ever seen. They had no shot at victory at any stage. Instead of 69-17 it might have been 45-20.
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
jay-c, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, old mate, but I'm not convinced that your analogy is actually an improvement on Sully's effort. You seem to be equating a Force win over the Lions with having a 50 percent probability of winning all of the wealth of "5 of the forbes 10 richest people in the world". And that is a "more accurate" analogy than Sully's? I think it might need a spot of reworking.
Admittedly, I didn't really follow his either.
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I like to watch
David Codey (61)
I'm with Jay C.
BEFORE the match,given the travel,limited preparation time,and lack of playing time as a group.The BIL would not have been at unbackable odds.
If ever the Force were going to beat the BIL, then it was now.
But in true Foley style, they never fired a shot.
they took the safe way & picked a reserve grade team that had NO chance.
A victory against the Lions would have been the biggest thing the Franchise has ever experienced.Instead they threw away the chance,so they could probably turn a 3 win season into a 4 win season.
That's not really the making of a franchise is it?
BEFORE the match,given the travel,limited preparation time,and lack of playing time as a group.The BIL would not have been at unbackable odds.
If ever the Force were going to beat the BIL, then it was now.
But in true Foley style, they never fired a shot.
they took the safe way & picked a reserve grade team that had NO chance.
A victory against the Lions would have been the biggest thing the Franchise has ever experienced.Instead they threw away the chance,so they could probably turn a 3 win season into a 4 win season.
That's not really the making of a franchise is it?
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
How are you blokes going to react over this combined country team??
Even if South Africa they've had blow out scores:
And the WA result is actually better than the last time they came here - plus see QLD president's XV result
Hell, even the Kiwis give them a blowout:
to the extent that this self flagellation is response to anything Woodward said: it should never be forgotten that the guy is a manipulative wanker.
Surely no one really thinks that any force team that could have been put in the park by Wednesday stood a chance?
Even if South Africa they've had blow out scores:
And the WA result is actually better than the last time they came here - plus see QLD president's XV result
Hell, even the Kiwis give them a blowout:
to the extent that this self flagellation is response to anything Woodward said: it should never be forgotten that the guy is a manipulative wanker.
Surely no one really thinks that any force team that could have been put in the park by Wednesday stood a chance?
Hugh Jarse
Rocky Elsom (76)
^^^^ We do tend to have short memories, unrealistic expectations and rose coloured revisionist interpretations of history don't we.
The Lions may be underperforming in recent Test Series, but regardless of how we view NH club and international rugby standards, skills and tactics, when the Lions are up against provincial franchises they tend to win most matches reasonably comfortably, as do most International sides.
It is rather wishful thinking to expect anything other than a Lions victory in the warm up matches. Removing all the first choice Wobs from the franchises more or less guarantees that this proposition will be proved correct.
Notwithstanding all that, it is a bucket list item for the lucky players chosen to play in the teams regardless of what keyboard selectors think about those players abilities and who they would have chosen. It is also a glorious opportunity to see some of the World's best rugby players plying their trade in our back yard, and to have a few refreshing ales with some visiting rugby fanatics. Priceless.
The Lions may be underperforming in recent Test Series, but regardless of how we view NH club and international rugby standards, skills and tactics, when the Lions are up against provincial franchises they tend to win most matches reasonably comfortably, as do most International sides.
It is rather wishful thinking to expect anything other than a Lions victory in the warm up matches. Removing all the first choice Wobs from the franchises more or less guarantees that this proposition will be proved correct.
Notwithstanding all that, it is a bucket list item for the lucky players chosen to play in the teams regardless of what keyboard selectors think about those players abilities and who they would have chosen. It is also a glorious opportunity to see some of the World's best rugby players plying their trade in our back yard, and to have a few refreshing ales with some visiting rugby fanatics. Priceless.
I feel like there has been a massive amount of exaggeration regarding the weakness of the team the Force put out against the Lions and how much better their normal team could have been.
Let's look at the starting XV for the most recent Force game against the Highlanders and the team against the Lions.
The first name is the player who played the Highlanders and the second is the one against the Lions.
1. Cowan, Manu - Cowan is a good player but Manu had an excellent game. He was the probably the best scrummaging prop on the park.
2. Tessman, Hilterbrand - The Force did miss out here because their lineout suffered a bit. Hilterbrand was good around the park though. He is their reserve hooker this year so it's not like he's come from nowhere. Tessman has been one of the Force's best this year though.
3. Longbottom, Ma'afu - Ma'afu hasn't played a lot this year due to injury as far as I know. I thought he was decent against the Lions and made one brilliant try saving tackle. I don't really rate Longbottom so I think the Force improved with Ma'afu.
4. Lynn, Lynn - N/A
5. Wykes, Battye - I think Wykes has struggled this year. Battye was reasonable. This swap didn't mean a whole lot.
6/7. Hodgson/Alcock, Cottrell/Hodgson - Hodgson played a different position but was the Force's best player against the Lions. Let's ignore him as he was a fixture in both. Alcock has been excellent this year but Cottrell had a strong game against the Lions. Alcock was missed but the gap wasn't that bad.
8. McCalman, Brown - McCalman unavailable due to Wallabies duty. Brown is a quality replacement but this is absolutely a forced change.
9. Mathewson, Sheehan - Mathewson has been much better than Sheehan this year but Sheehan is an experienced campaigner and Wallaby. It's unfair on Sheehan to be too upset that he started.
10. Ebersohn, Sam Norton-Knight - SNK was the best defender in the backline and had an excellent game. I think this was a clear upgrade on Ebersohn.
11. Cummins, Brown - Forced change due to Cummins being in the Wallabies. Brown was pretty good and showed plenty of promise. Cummins is a massive loss but Brown put in a good effort.
12. Godwin, Tuatara-Morrison - this was definitely the biggest drop off in quality in the side. CTM had a shocker and Godwin has been the Force's best player. Reports were saying that Godwin was injured though. Assuming Godwin is named today to play the Waratahs, four extra days recovery can't be discounted. It can definitely be the difference between being right for a match or unavailable.
13. Jacobs, Stubbs - Stubbs was really strong and Jacobs is no world beater. I struggle to see how this was much of a drop off in quality.
14. Delitt, Haylett-Petty - Delitt was really strong against the Highlanders but is also far from a world beater. DHP had a really good game and has just signed with the Force for next year. I'd guess that if it comes down to it, DHP will beat out Delitt for a starting spot more often than not next year.
15. Hayward, Christie - much of a muchness in my opinion.
Does anyone disagree to any great degree on this?
I feel like a lot of the criticism directed at Foley is related to MMM and Godwin not playing against the Lions but absolutely no one has been able to verify that they were actually available for selection for that game.
Let's look at the starting XV for the most recent Force game against the Highlanders and the team against the Lions.
The first name is the player who played the Highlanders and the second is the one against the Lions.
1. Cowan, Manu - Cowan is a good player but Manu had an excellent game. He was the probably the best scrummaging prop on the park.
2. Tessman, Hilterbrand - The Force did miss out here because their lineout suffered a bit. Hilterbrand was good around the park though. He is their reserve hooker this year so it's not like he's come from nowhere. Tessman has been one of the Force's best this year though.
3. Longbottom, Ma'afu - Ma'afu hasn't played a lot this year due to injury as far as I know. I thought he was decent against the Lions and made one brilliant try saving tackle. I don't really rate Longbottom so I think the Force improved with Ma'afu.
4. Lynn, Lynn - N/A
5. Wykes, Battye - I think Wykes has struggled this year. Battye was reasonable. This swap didn't mean a whole lot.
6/7. Hodgson/Alcock, Cottrell/Hodgson - Hodgson played a different position but was the Force's best player against the Lions. Let's ignore him as he was a fixture in both. Alcock has been excellent this year but Cottrell had a strong game against the Lions. Alcock was missed but the gap wasn't that bad.
8. McCalman, Brown - McCalman unavailable due to Wallabies duty. Brown is a quality replacement but this is absolutely a forced change.
9. Mathewson, Sheehan - Mathewson has been much better than Sheehan this year but Sheehan is an experienced campaigner and Wallaby. It's unfair on Sheehan to be too upset that he started.
10. Ebersohn, Sam Norton-Knight - SNK was the best defender in the backline and had an excellent game. I think this was a clear upgrade on Ebersohn.
11. Cummins, Brown - Forced change due to Cummins being in the Wallabies. Brown was pretty good and showed plenty of promise. Cummins is a massive loss but Brown put in a good effort.
12. Godwin, Tuatara-Morrison - this was definitely the biggest drop off in quality in the side. CTM had a shocker and Godwin has been the Force's best player. Reports were saying that Godwin was injured though. Assuming Godwin is named today to play the Waratahs, four extra days recovery can't be discounted. It can definitely be the difference between being right for a match or unavailable.
13. Jacobs, Stubbs - Stubbs was really strong and Jacobs is no world beater. I struggle to see how this was much of a drop off in quality.
14. Delitt, Haylett-Petty - Delitt was really strong against the Highlanders but is also far from a world beater. DHP had a really good game and has just signed with the Force for next year. I'd guess that if it comes down to it, DHP will beat out Delitt for a starting spot more often than not next year.
15. Hayward, Christie - much of a muchness in my opinion.
Does anyone disagree to any great degree on this?
I feel like a lot of the criticism directed at Foley is related to MMM and Godwin not playing against the Lions but absolutely no one has been able to verify that they were actually available for selection for that game.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
7 debutantes says it all.
add to that Manu has played very little all season.
That's 8 players Foley doesn't want in his match day squad ALL year.
That's a second rate team.
Certainly by Foley's reckoning, or he would have used them previously, wouldn't he?
add to that Manu has played very little all season.
That's 8 players Foley doesn't want in his match day squad ALL year.
That's a second rate team.
Certainly by Foley's reckoning, or he would have used them previously, wouldn't he?
jay-c
Ron Walden (29)
did munster have a shot of beating the all blacks in 1978?
did the reds have a shot against the lions in 1971?
what about the story of the 1913 US Open, where 20-year-old Francis Ouimet defeated his idol, 1900 US Open champion, Englishman, Harry Vardon?
being a professional team in the highest quality rugby comp in the world and considering the lions preparation as 'I like to watch' has mentioned id suggest they had a better chance than most are giving them credit for and considerably a better chance than the examples ive named above
I think the problem is hornet, is that there are too many people at the force who think like you (alarmingly in their coaching department ill add)
take a look at the reds this weekend, they've named as strong as of a side as possible and they are going for the win- they are taking on a stronger, better prepared lions team and any gambling man would tell you to back the lions.
but what if- by some miracle, all 23 reds players play a 'once in a career' best game? what if the stars align and the lions have an off night that very same night?
the rugby ball bounces in funny ways my friend and if you never try to achieve anything in life you never will
this is why mckenzie has won the comp before and why foley took the tahs from losing a qualifying final and coming 5th in 2011 to losing his last 8 games and coming 12th in the space of a year. this is why some people achieve things in life while most people whinge about how hard life is for them and spend their time making excuses
there are winners and losers in this world mate
it doesnt matter any more cause they have wasted their chance but we'll never know if the force could have won that game and the reason we'll never know is because they never tried
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
This!
Most of those debutants were on the bench and had little involvement or influence on the match.
Salesi Ma'afu has also played very little this season but is one of the most experienced players in the team.
Manu was really good. I struggle to see how Longbottom or Faulkner would have been much better.
There is no doubt that this wasn't their first choice team. The point I am making is that the difference between this team and the normal team is very small when you consider that Cummins and McCalman definitely weren't available for selection and Godwin and MMM possibly weren't.
The Force and the Reds are in a completely different position. The Reds don't have to play two games in five days. There was no reason they had to compromise because they have to field another team with a short turnaround.
Bruce Ross
Ken Catchpole (46)
What about "the story of the 1913 US Open" indeed, jay-c? Good point. I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up. Too many people have short memories. It went to five sets as I recall. And that was in the days before the overhead serve was introduced.
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rugbysmartarse
Alan Cameron (40)
apologies for diverting the conversation from its current diversion, but what time is kick off on sunday??
jay-c
Ron Walden (29)
alright bruce you wise guy> but does my point still stand?
and braveheart the point you seem to be missing is that despite the relative strength of the team named it wasnt the best available. if foley had held back one player it wouldnt have been the best available and yet he held back many more than that.
my issue is that he didnt give his team the best chance of winning that game and that for me is the crime for which he cannot be forgiven
foley can give the excuse that his team had an important game to decide 13th or 14th place overall but at the end of the day its just an excuse.
in the future people will never remember foleys name but i think its criminal that he robbed his team of the chance to create a name for themselves
and braveheart the point you seem to be missing is that despite the relative strength of the team named it wasnt the best available. if foley had held back one player it wouldnt have been the best available and yet he held back many more than that.
my issue is that he didnt give his team the best chance of winning that game and that for me is the crime for which he cannot be forgiven
foley can give the excuse that his team had an important game to decide 13th or 14th place overall but at the end of the day its just an excuse.
in the future people will never remember foleys name but i think its criminal that he robbed his team of the chance to create a name for themselves
4pm Sydney time.
The ARU has removed two of the Waratahs matchday 22 from their clash against the Lions so they can join a training squad for a 7s tournament. One of those players has been the Waratahs key playmaker all season.
That to me should be seen as a bigger slight on the Lions.
I really doubt Foley would be the only coach to do what he did in that situation. I also doubt he went against the wishes of the overall Force management or the ARU.
I think if any other Australian franchise had been put in a similar position they would have done a similar thing with selections regardless of whether they were in a position to make the Super Rugby finals.
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
OK mate, let's explore this a little. Specifically who could have come into the Force first XV that would have assuredly delivered us to glory on Wednesday night?
Godwin? Injured
MMM? Injured
Cummins? Hasn't he been pulled due to Wallaby squad commitments?
Anyone else?
And you can rightly laud the Reds all you like, but they didn't have a game four days later.
In any case, why do you care so much? Do you support the Force now?
jay-c
Ron Walden (29)
the simple fact that he has named a stronger team for this weekend is where my argument gains credibility
dunno if u noticed the comment on rugby hq along the lines that suggested godwin wasnt happy about being left out.
and the reason i care so much is because i support australian rugby
and i feel for guys who have dedicated their lives to a sport i love and because tomorrow most of them will be nobodies- and yet, they could have been somebodies
fyi- the reds arnt my team either
dunno if u noticed the comment on rugby hq along the lines that suggested godwin wasnt happy about being left out.
and the reason i care so much is because i support australian rugby
and i feel for guys who have dedicated their lives to a sport i love and because tomorrow most of them will be nobodies- and yet, they could have been somebodies
fyi- the reds arnt my team either
Tah and feathered
Watty Friend (18)
What was the use of flying Tim Metcher from Sydney to Perth for 3 minutes of game time
Wouldn't it have been better to give him say 20 Minutes and if he was getting dished up take him off and put the prop taken off back on
There are not a lot of quality TH props going around and I thought an opportunity was lost to have a good look at Metcher.
Wouldn't it have been better to give him say 20 Minutes and if he was getting dished up take him off and put the prop taken off back on
There are not a lot of quality TH props going around and I thought an opportunity was lost to have a good look at Metcher.
He hasn't named his side yet as far as I can tell.
RedsHappy
Tony Shaw (54)
The other not insignificant dimension to this issue jay-c is surely this: the ARU and RugbyWA invited paying fans to attend Wednesday's match in a large (for Perth) stadium taking upwards of 40,000 fans to see a 'once in every 12 years' event with big advance billing. These RUs were more than happy to attempt to maximise their $ earnings from this game, and in fact 35,000 fans bought tickets, some 3 times the rough average of Force S15 crowds this year.
To the best of my knowledge, at no stage prior to this game was it advertised that in fact it was likely these fans would see a highly diluted version of the Force filled with debutants and second-stringers that had in aggregate rarely if ever played a Super 15 game together.
I don't believe the 35,000 have been offered refunds after the inevitably weak display by the Force Lite (where only 7 more points were scored by the local team than was the case as scored by the largely amateur team forming WA Rugby in 2001 despite the professional Force having been in continuous existence since 2006. That 7-points-over-12-years gain is pathetic frankly given this history).
So, IMO, there was a major issue of commercial integrity involved wrt the paying public's support of this match. Let alone the fact that this diluted version of the Force as witnessed would surely have created few new converts to rugby in WA.
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