Force vs B&I Lions - Wed. 5 Jun

[gel]

The three scenarios that are being discussed in this thread appear to be:

1. The force lose massively against the lions no matter what team they field and increase their chances against a weakened waratahs.
2. The force put their best team against the lions and come close and lose to a weakened waratahs
3. The force put their best team forward against the lions and win and lose to a weakened waratahs.

(There are other possibilities like draws and stuff - but they are not really being discussed)

A number of people here repeatedly are suggesting that the waratahs game is more important than the lions event - due to the potential damage that 1. might have to the franchise.

1. has been often reiterated in this thread and is clearly understood by everyone, so I won't focus on it directly other than to say that it is recognized that it is probably the most likely outcome.

2 and 3 though have significant importance though in the following regards:

a) losing to the tahs at this point in the season does not change the Force's standing in the competition with respect to finals
b) losing to the tahs at this point in the season does not significantly change the Force's standing in the competition
c) losing to the tahs is not an unheralded event and therefore something to be avoided at all costs to maintain some sort of record
d) beating the tahs in any super rugby game is not an unheralded event as the Force have previously beaten them twice and drawn once
e) The Force play the tahs twice every year, so playing them is not a unique event
f) The force fans are loyal and have displayed consistent support that the other franchises ("fair weather reds fans" and "booing tah fans" anyone?) should be envious of given their record over the years and a loss to the tahs this weekend will not affect that in anyway shape or form
g) A close loss or even win - no matter how unlikely - against a lions outfit which has traveled half way around the planet in the last week with the best the Force can muster would echo through the history books like no other match the Force have played to date.
h) Until the Force win a Super Final no other match would be talked about if f were to come true.
i) it is rugby and upsets do occur and teams can lift against insurmountable odds - specially when the underdog is given no chance whatsoever.
j) The Force have made this i) their specialty over recent years
k) it is a 1 in 12 year opportunity to play the lions
l) The Force fans have paid to see the Force vs the Lions and want to see their best players - they are the ones the Force ultimately have to answer to and appease.

Granted the safe option is to go for the easier win against the tahs, it is clearly the option with the least reward and in fact has the most to lose.

The risk is to run out the best team against the lions. The potential cost is a loss to the tahs (which they have already experienced a number of times and no one will ever talk about in a years time). The potential reward is a win or close game against the lions which will go down in history and repeated for years to come.

I much rather watch a team play rugby than to play the conservative style of play that bores the tits off most people - and I think the same thought process shoudl be give by the Force here as well.

Give it a crack: you have nothing to lose.

 

[barbarian]

I'm also not sure about this idea that a 'fighting loss' would echo in the rugby universe for 'years to come'.

The Brumbies got done after the siren back in 2001. Until a few weeks ago I didn't even remember that result, and I can't remember it ever being brought up in conversation anywhere in the last 12 years.

And gel you neglect to mention a fourth scenario- the Force top XV lose heavily to the Lions, and then their second XV lose heavily to the Tahs. Which frankly is far more likely than scenarios 2 and 3 in my opinion.
.

 

[jay-c]

I much rather watch a team play rugby than to play the conservative style of play that bores the tits off most people - and I think the same thought process shoudl be give by the Force here as well.

Give it a crack: you have nothing to lose.

ahhh my friend.. as a waratahs supporter while foley was in charge of my team i feel deeply for you... you have a tough few years ahead of you
it is this exact "conservative style that bores the tits off most people" for which foley gave the tahs a reputation for.
he is the accountant who refuses to accept or understand the importance of marketing, hr, sales and management in running a business... his only knowledge is of numbers... and this is precisely why his coaching style will never win competitions- he'll improve the force probably to an average team and hes a good forwards coach... but lackin in so many areas- as a coach- hes not a winner

 

[Bardon]

Bardon, I'd like to see a full strength Force team take on the Lions as well, but the schedule makes a little difficult to do. I also want to see the blokes who do make it out there to have a red hot go and I have no doubt they will.

As far as the Lions concept goes, I'm curious as to the thinking behind breaking with the 12 year cycle? Is there talk that a tour every four years isn't going to happen or that they will drop AUS?

Hey TBH.

I don't think that removing Aus as a stop for the Lions tour would be part of the discussion. It's that adding additional stops may be on the table for discussion, as opposed to the one off games that have kicked off recent tours.

There's is talk of adding Argentina into the rotation. Or having a fourth slot that could be filled by Argentina or another destination. The rotations would then be on a 16 year cycle. NZ->SA->AUS->ARG/OTHER.

It's only talk at this point and maybe the review will say that they are happy with the current rotation. However the Lions in the modern era is really focused on the brand, as the stop off in HK shows. There will be plenty of suggestions on how the brand can be grown and exploited.

Personally I'm just a rugby lover and I'd love to see the Lions tours expanded. However the increasing power of the clubs, especially up north, coupled with the desire to spread the Lions brand points towards a shrinking in-country tour in the future.

 

[gel]

I'm also not sure about this idea that a 'fighting loss' would echo in the rugby universe for 'years to come'.

The Brumbies got done after the siren back in 2001. Until a few weeks ago I didn't even remember that result, and I can't remember it ever being brought up in conversation anywhere in the last 12 years.

And gel you neglect to mention a fourth scenario- the Force top XV lose heavily to the Lions, and then their second XV lose heavily to the Tahs. Which frankly is far more likely than scenarios 2 and 3 in my opinion.
.

I am including that scenario in 1, and I think I spelled out quite clearly that it is the more likely. Is the rest of what I wrote completely pointless to even discuss or is option 1 the only result and there is no chance of anything else at all?

The brumbies efforts are remembered by people I hang with - but the Force doing the same would be a different matter altogether.

 

[Braveheart81]

it is shameful that the force board and the aru has not done something about it. if i had bought a ticket to this expensive game id want my money back as id feel they have breached contract-

Before there is any more hyperbole concerning the Lions game being 'expensive', my understanding is that ticket prices for these games are the same as Super Rugby games.

Certainly the Tahs vs Lions had platinum tickets at $58 which is the same price as the equivalent ticket to a Super Rugby game.

Based on the assumption that the Force need to provide value to their fans, they need to do it in both matches.

 

[barbarian]

I am including that scenario in 1, and I think I spelled out quite clearly that it is the more likely. Is the rest of what I wrote completely pointless to even discuss or is option 1 the only result and there is no chance of anything else at all?

The brumbies efforts are remembered by people I hang with - but the Force doing the same would be a different matter altogether.

Not really, you said:

1. The force lose massively against the lions no matter what team they field and increase their chances against a weakened waratahs.

But if they fielded their top side against the Lions and got hammered, then this would greatly decrease their chances against the Tahs.

And I never said the rest of what you wrote is pointless, but you seem to be weighing each option as equal- ie that it is just as likely that they beat the Lions as lose.

As others have said, it isn't like the top-strength Force side is THAT much better than the one they are fielding. It isn't like Ed Stubbs will struggle where Ben Jacobs would have carved up.
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[Gorgodze]

Hi guys, long time lurker, first time poster. This issue has got me fired up enough to write something! I was actually at the Brumbies - Lions game in 2001 and it was the most enjoyable experience I’ve ever had watching the Brumbies (and I’ve seen them win grand finals, saw their first game etc). It was a sellout, the game was bloody close and exciting and the crowd was incredible – in a one team town like Canberra I’ve never seen a crowd that was so rowdy for both teams. Our team was understrength but still pretty good and Justin Harrison, for example, really made a name for himself in that game. I went out after the game with my dad and could barely get in to typically quiet and crappy pubs on a winter’s Tuesday night because they were heaving with Lions fans, singing songs and generally being legends. It was seriously such a memorable occasion. I can’t remember most of the crappy losses we’ve had to the Waratahs over the years but I’ll never forget that game.

My view is that fans watch their teams, and players play, for the occasional bit of glory and excitement, that’s what this tour is all about. Resting players for a no-count match against a team missing its ten best players, at the cost of maybe just a chance of creating the kind of game that no Force fan will ever forget is a pretty uninspiring thing to do.

Cheers and carn Brumbies.

 

[BDA]

f) The force fans are loyal and have displayed consistent support that the other franchises ("fair weather reds fans" and "booing tah fans" anyone?) should be envious of given their record over the years and a loss to the tahs this weekend will not affect that in anyway shape or form

I share this sentiment. The Force look to have a relatively small but loyal fan base, a fan base that is more or less use to enduring numerous losses at home each year. Yet the support base seems to take this in their stride. In turn, the team has a history of repaying that faith, with one or two upset wins each season to remind the fans why they stick with their team. Im sure most of the Force fans care more about seeing their team front up against the lions (win lose or draw) than potentially collecting a few extra log points.

I tend to think if you asked Force members their preference for this week the large majority of them would have preferred to see a full strength side play the Lions, even if it is at the expense of losing to the tahs.

Furthermore, its pretty clear that the tahs will be playing with a massively undermanned team anyway. Not so sure the Force couldn't get away with playing an undermanned team themselves on Saturday.

 

[Dam0]

I wonder if there is not a divide between people who see games like this as warm up games for the Tests, and those that see these games as valuable in and of themselves. For me, this is the tour every bit as much as the Tests, but I can see that some don't really think that.

 

[gel]

Not really, you said:



But if they fielded their top side against the Lions and got hammered, then this would greatly decrease their chances against the Tahs.

And I never said the rest of what you wrote is pointless, but you seem to be weighing each option as equal- ie that it is just as likely that they beat the Lions as lose.

As others have said, it isn't like the top-strength Force side is THAT much better than the one they are fielding. It isn't like Ed Stubbs will struggle where Ben Jacobs would have carved up.
.

Take option 1 as you will - upon re-reading yes it does look that way - I was trying to convey that they were still no certainty against the tahs anyway.

I stated that 1. was a more likely scenario (and repeated it as well) which means I am not treating them equally at all.

What you are doing appears to be ignoring every other possibility and saying that there is only one outcome.

My point is that it is a much higher risk with a massively higher reward, ergo Go for it.

Your point appears to be play conservatively and have no significant reward to speak of at all.

 

[barbarian]

Your point appears to be play conservatively and have no significant reward to speak of at all.

I think a win against the Waratahs is a good reward, and FAR more attainable than beating the Lions.
.

 

[ChargerWA]

Clive Woodward has come out and said they should look at dropping the lions tour to Aus if we are going to run out weakend provincial sides and treat them with disrespect. Hard to disagree.

 

[gel]

I think a win against the Waratahs is a good reward, and FAR more attainable than beating the Lions.
.

And many disagree and have bothered to put forward many reasons to justify why to which you (and the others) haven’t. You have just restated the exact same response you previously did without adding any new position or facts at all.


Thus why I got all pissed in the wee small hours last night (that and an obvious overly late night).*edit* see points a) through e) why the tahs win is not that much of a reward really.

 

[barbarian]

And many disagree and have bothered to put forward many reasons to justify why to which you (and the others) haven’t. You have just restated the exact same response you previously did without adding any new position or facts at all.


Thus why I got all pissed in the wee small hours last night (that and an obvious overly late night).*edit* see points a) through e) why the tahs win is not that much of a reward really.

Mate if you think you are the only one supporting your arguments then you are having a laugh, and clearly unable to comprehend the argument of others.

The only reason I restated my position is that you seem not to be able to understand it, such that you are altering it to suit your own ends.

But we are going around in circles here, and I have better things to do.
.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Clive Woodward has come out and said they should look at dropping the lions tour to Aus if we are going to run out weakend provincial sides and treat them with disrespect. Hard to disagree.

Good old Lord Bald is always reliable in his dislike of Australian rugby, bless him.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I wonder if there is not a divide between people who see games like this as warm up games for the Tests, and those that see these games as valuable in and of themselves. For me, this is the tour every bit as much as the Tests, but I can see that some don't really think that.

I think you are on the money there Dam0.

The professional game has changed the nature of tours, pretty much forever. The Lions are really the only team that do it the "old" way, with provincial warm up games before the tests. Now tours are more your smash and grab raids.

 

[Braveheart81]

It seems the bulk of posters are suggesting that the Force have sacrificed the Lions game by naming a bad team so they can name their best team against the Waratahs.

Surely the reality is somewhere in between and both teams are a compromise to try and make both teams competitive.

I would have thought that was the only real way to do it. If you have two games in five days surely you have to try and field a decent team in both matches.

 

[Blue]

Braveheart is probably right-ish.

Just hope it's close for a good while. Would haye to see a blow out.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Hey TBH.

I don't think that removing Aus as a stop for the Lions tour would be part of the discussion. It's that adding additional stops may be on the table for discussion, as opposed to the one off games that have kicked off recent tours.

There's is talk of adding Argentina into the rotation. Or having a fourth slot that could be filled by Argentina or another destination. The rotations would then be on a 16 year cycle. NZ->SA->AUS->ARG/OTHER.

It's only talk at this point and maybe the review will say that they are happy with the current rotation. However the Lions in the modern era is really focused on the brand, as the stop off in HK shows. There will be plenty of suggestions on how the brand can be grown and exploited.

Personally I'm just a rugby lover and I'd love to see the Lions tours expanded. However the increasing power of the clubs, especially up north, coupled with the desire to spread the Lions brand points towards a shrinking in-country tour in the future.

You are right in that's a branding exercise these days. As we discuss all of the above, I noticed the following in the OZ today (reprinted from The Times):

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...ish-lions-future/story-fniiw3ie-1226657757820

and it seems to lend credence to the comments you made before.