#1 Tah
Chilla Wilson (44)
ew, you stll fax?
I kid, but deans has been known to check his blackberry in the middle of games.
Do we really need a playmaker @ 12?
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ew, you stll fax?
I kid, but deans has been known to check his blackberry in the middle of games.
Langthorne
Phil Hardcastle (33)
Plus QC (Quade Cooper), KB (Kurtley Beale) and JO'C are no slouches when it comes to running.
I'd feel more comfortable with that backline if QC (Quade Cooper) sorts out his defence.
20. Burgess
21. Barnes
(no competition really)
22. This spot is a bit more tricky, but given the massive flexibility of the guys in the starting backline, any of Turner, Hynes, Chambers, Horne, (or maybe Mortlock!) are a possibility
These backs could well be available for the 2015 RWC too
Having a playmaker at 12 gives the 10 the ability to attack the line more often because the 12 can step up and direct the next phase.
Let the 9 manage the first pass running game, the 10 direct play and the 12 to be able to be a running threat, but also be able to step into the 10 as needed..
Let the 9 manage the first pass running game, the 10 direct play and the 12 to be able to be a running threat, but also be able to step into the 10 as needed..
disco
Chilla Wilson (44)
When we have Beale at 15 & JOC (James O'Connor) roaming surely one of them can slip in at 1st receiver if Qwade is at the bottom of a ruck.
If we want a Nonu type 12 then Ant Fainga'a or Will Chambers could fill that role whilst leaving AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13.
The main reason I really want a bigger centre combo is 1. We have great playmakers at 9,10,15 & 14 already 2. Toughen up the defence because of our 10.
I don't think JOC (James O'Connor) can be deemed a playmaker at the moment, he is just learning not to be selfish and Beale is better left out of having to fill in for Cooper every time he takes on the defence, just let him float and pick his moment. Defences will have less opportunity to plan for him
I still think we need Barnes at 12, he is as good as any in defence and is a good counterpoint to Quade's flakiness (which is both good and bad)
I still think we need Barnes at 12, he is as good as any in defence and is a good counterpoint to Quade's flakiness (which is both good and bad)
W
WB3
Guest
Fair call, but in the long term (perhaps post-WC) I would love to see JOC (James O'Connor) get his shot there.
I love Disco's idea of AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Diggers or Will Chambers in the centres. Big and physical.
But I also love having dual-play makers. Someone who can stand either side of the ruck. Or allowing the 10 to chance his arm and run, and still having someone to stand in at first receiver for the next phase.
With Beale at fullback we have that. With JOC (James O'Connor) on the wing too. I think he is very capable of doing this. In fact when I was watching the 94 Bledisloe yesterday it was the role Campo played a lot. He would often get involved closer to the ruck (and kicking), and that's the type of role JOC (James O'Connor) could play very well.
But I also love having dual-play makers. Someone who can stand either side of the ruck. Or allowing the 10 to chance his arm and run, and still having someone to stand in at first receiver for the next phase.
With Beale at fullback we have that. With JOC (James O'Connor) on the wing too. I think he is very capable of doing this. In fact when I was watching the 94 Bledisloe yesterday it was the role Campo played a lot. He would often get involved closer to the ruck (and kicking), and that's the type of role JOC (James O'Connor) could play very well.
Long term, I think JOC (James O'Connor) is the answer at 12 and with Ioane returning soon we may well see it sooner rather than later with Mitchell/Turner to fight it out over the last wing spot.
But I highly doubt we will see it for the World Cup. Deans has shown faith in Giteau all the way through to now, he's not gonna just dump him less than a year out from the Cup now. All of his decisions have been made with one eye on next October and he clearly sees Giteau as our best option at 12 right now. And the way JOC (James O'Connor) is playing on the wing I also can't see much reason for him to make a change yet.
After the RWC however, I can definitely see him making a concerted effort to push JOC (James O'Connor) in to 12.
But I highly doubt we will see it for the World Cup. Deans has shown faith in Giteau all the way through to now, he's not gonna just dump him less than a year out from the Cup now. All of his decisions have been made with one eye on next October and he clearly sees Giteau as our best option at 12 right now. And the way JOC (James O'Connor) is playing on the wing I also can't see much reason for him to make a change yet.
After the RWC however, I can definitely see him making a concerted effort to push JOC (James O'Connor) in to 12.
#1 Tah
Chilla Wilson (44)
fixed.
Groucho
Greg Davis (50)
I'm not convinced by the regard being shown for AFinger in this company. Sure, he had a solid S14 and has a good combination with Quade, but has been quite ordinary in his international outings so far, both for Australia A and the Wallabies.
Like his brother, he has some way to go before he is of international standard, and also like his brother (and unlike the wunderkinds) we run the risk of moving him backwards by pushing him too soon.
Like his brother, he has some way to go before he is of international standard, and also like his brother (and unlike the wunderkinds) we run the risk of moving him backwards by pushing him too soon.
Groucho
Greg Davis (50)
Edit... oops misread Tah's post.
Jnor
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Do you count as the pommy press as well now?
I think what we all want is actually a playmaker with the vision, speed, skill, passing and footwork of Larkham or even QC (Quade Cooper) and the size and crashing ability (in running and defence) of Umanga/Morty.
Agreed?
We should all listen to this rooster more often.
It's becoming painfully obvious to most of us Gits's rugby's going backwards. What to do? A NZ-style "second five-eighth" or a classic hard fast Aussie in the Horan mould? Horans don't come about very often but the qualities players like him brought to the inside centre position were integral to Australia's successes in 1984, 86, 91 & 99. IF JOC (James O'Connor)'s picked at 12 we'll find opponents will select bigger and bigger players for 9, 10, 12 & 13 and they'll queue up to run at Quade and Rabbit, and that's after the forwards have had their crack at the inside channels. I'll say it again: JOC (James O'Connor)'s TOO BLOODY SMALL FOR TEST MATCH INSIDE CENTRE.
The Force/Rebels match is going to interesting next year with Macqueen's preference for big backs.
R
Redsfan
Guest
Will Chambers has great hands, if he could work on improving his distributive nous he might make a decent 12. Whether or not that would be a sensible move given he's such a good 13 is another story though.
The_Brown_Hornet
John Eales (66)
It's generally agreed that our most successful period in our rugby history is 1980-2002. During that time, our successful teams played a pretty consistent style of 12. Off the top of my head, I can think of the following guys who played in that position in our winning teams:
Hawker, Noddy, Papworth, Michael Cook, Lloyd Walker, Horan, Pat Howard, Grey, Flatley and Giteau
Of the above, it's really only Cook and Grey who played that crash and bash style of game. Timmy was the ideal inside centre, in that he had a great passing game, ran immaculate lines and was hard as nails on defence. He was also a once in a generation player, comfortably the best 12 I've ever seen play the game across all countries. By definition, he doesn't come around too often.
So with that in mind, what does it suggest? That our traditional style of rugby favours the canny distributor at inside centre, usually with a good pass, solid defence and quite importantly a good boot. This is why I favour not throwing any old big body in there. If we do, then we're no better than the England teams we criticise so much. Of the current bunch, who is the most likely to deliver on this style? In the long term, for all of his perceived lack of size, JOC (James O'Connor) is the clear answer for me. The bloke is so quick, so skilful and so smart that I think he will carve it up at 12. He's only 20, right? Plenty of time to develop a bigger body.
In the mean time, the answer is clearly Barnes for my money. He ticks all the boxes and is a very smart footballer. If we want somebody bigger to combat a certain type opposition centre pairing, say England or South Africa, then Ant or Horne would be the possibilities. I'm not a believer in reducing a strength to cover a weakness, so AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) stays where he is at 13, where is starting to play some good footy. He's not a 12 at all IMHO, doesn't have the passing game.
Hawker, Noddy, Papworth, Michael Cook, Lloyd Walker, Horan, Pat Howard, Grey, Flatley and Giteau
Of the above, it's really only Cook and Grey who played that crash and bash style of game. Timmy was the ideal inside centre, in that he had a great passing game, ran immaculate lines and was hard as nails on defence. He was also a once in a generation player, comfortably the best 12 I've ever seen play the game across all countries. By definition, he doesn't come around too often.
So with that in mind, what does it suggest? That our traditional style of rugby favours the canny distributor at inside centre, usually with a good pass, solid defence and quite importantly a good boot. This is why I favour not throwing any old big body in there. If we do, then we're no better than the England teams we criticise so much. Of the current bunch, who is the most likely to deliver on this style? In the long term, for all of his perceived lack of size, JOC (James O'Connor) is the clear answer for me. The bloke is so quick, so skilful and so smart that I think he will carve it up at 12. He's only 20, right? Plenty of time to develop a bigger body.
In the mean time, the answer is clearly Barnes for my money. He ticks all the boxes and is a very smart footballer. If we want somebody bigger to combat a certain type opposition centre pairing, say England or South Africa, then Ant or Horne would be the possibilities. I'm not a believer in reducing a strength to cover a weakness, so AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) stays where he is at 13, where is starting to play some good footy. He's not a 12 at all IMHO, doesn't have the passing game.
I buy this logic, but then think 'so what do NZ do with Nonu at 12?' Not exactly a 10 candidate. Answer is they just use ball in hand and run a phase or two until Carter's back on deck, no biggie.
Also, Barnes has hardly been setting the world alight as a play-maker. Even in the much lauded Shute GF, he did little more than Shovel the ball on laterally, and was of zero attacking threat straight ahead. Looked like this vs Leicester as well. JO'C (and probably a few others, like the Gahu) would very easily cover what Barnes is doing in this regard at the moment.
And Lindo - I refer you to my prediction on the previous page that you would say that! JOC (James O'Connor) is no smaller than Giteau and I doubt the oppo are going to farm 12's much bigger than Nonu (who's he's handled at 12) in response
farva
Vay Wilson (31)
OConnor is listed at 88kg and 180cm. That is similar to Barnes (87kg and 183cm) and bigger than Giteau (178cm and 85 kg).
He is a lot bigger than he was when he was 18. He is not too small for inside centre.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
I agree with Farva, you are only too small at 12 if:
1. your skill set is limited to crashballing.
2.You getted bumped off/run over by your opposite.
JOC (James O'Connor) is neither, some posters are suggesting our 12 needs to be a big guy to cover the 10's deficiencies. No 12 can mark 2 players no matter how big he is.
The 10's defensive deficiencies are for a different thread however.
I would be keen to see JOC (James O'Connor) at 12 once Hynes proves he should be back in the starting side
1. your skill set is limited to crashballing.
2.You getted bumped off/run over by your opposite.
JOC (James O'Connor) is neither, some posters are suggesting our 12 needs to be a big guy to cover the 10's deficiencies. No 12 can mark 2 players no matter how big he is.
The 10's defensive deficiencies are for a different thread however.
I would be keen to see JOC (James O'Connor) at 12 once Hynes proves he should be back in the starting side
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