Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

[Beer Baron]

Yep!

dont see what the problem is here. its not the schools job to grow the game.

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[Quick Hands]

And AFL is not played in many Schools.
Yet their policy (similar to Hockey on steroids) is to give kids exposure to their sport at School, and hope they join local clubs.
Both codes are growing exponentially.

That's right mate. The object of those sports going into primary schools isn't to start school teams or run school comps, it's to channel kids into the local clubs. Some people don't get it or choose not to get it.

 

[Hugie]

Down here in the Illawarra the sequence plays out differently (I'm sure its the same for other regions).

1. At about 13 the boys start talking about how they have to get a private school scholarship to in order to make it in rugby (even though they don't exist). At this point a lot are playing league on Saturdays and union on Sundays and their parents are pressuring them to choose.
2. About 2-3 a year from the district will get them, to not only Sydney but also Brisbane, up till about 15-16. By now they are only playing one code a weekend. We don't have the private school vs club weekend problem.
3. At this point those that didn't get offered a scholarship (or didn't take them up) mostly go over to league where they are told to drop Union, because the risk of injury is too high, they need to concentrate on League and Union is for Private schools boys anyway "our game is league". Many can make some money (over 18) playing local league often $600/game, so for a young man plenty of beer money (of course no boy drinks under the age of 18 so they wait until their 18th birthday).
4. If they don't make it in league many come back to union for the comradery, and clubs like Shamrocks (my club) can find them apprentiships, jobs etc. League is taken very seriously down here and if you don't get selected then you don't get a game, were as union will always make sure you get a game (often 3 games on the same day).

This creates 2 problems in my mind:

1. The simple ethical problem "why are we killing these kids dreams of a rugby union future at 15?" Most boys won't make it as a professional rugby player there aren't enough places in Australia but you shouldn't be killing of their dreams at 15/16.
2. Eye balls on the screen and bums on seats is what drives a professional sport, and if you drive these boys, their friends and family away from the sport then you're killing off the sport's income. Which is exactly what is happening.

RUGBY NEEDS A MAJOR CULTURAL SHIFT TO BECOME MUCH MORE INCLUSIVE

 

[Quick Hands]

This creates 2 problems in my mind:

1. The simple ethical problem "why are we killing these kids dreams of a rugby union future at 15?" Most boys won't make it as a professional rugby player there aren't enough places in Australia but you shouldn't be killing of their dreams at 15/16.
2. Eye balls on the screen and bums on seats is what drives a professional sport, and if you drive these boys, their friends and family away from the sport then you're killing off the sport's income. Which is exactly what is happening.

RUGBY NEEDS A MAJOR CULTURAL SHIFT TO BECOME MUCH MORE INCLUSIVE

This is the reality which rugby faces and yet there are some who still see school-based competitions as the answer.

Every other sport seems to get it, but there is still this thinking by some rugby types that we are so unique that the usual sporting norms don't apply to us.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Isn't it all fairly academic unless the clubs can offer these 15-18 year olds anywhere near the opportunity/coaching/facilities/support that the private schools do?

And the ARU gets all of this for free, paid for by other fee paying parents.

Even NRL clubs are sending their scholarship kids through the GPS/rugby union system.

It may not be ideal for the sport, but what is the realistic alternative?

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[TOCC]

Schools rugby isn't the problem, it's their independence which has allowed them to remain one of the true successful components of Australian rugby..

It's the development systems running parallel and following on after schools Rugby which are lacking

 

[zer0]

Back in the dim, dark past there used to be an annual Australia v NZ 16s match. Would be at least 25 years since the last one I think.

Didn't know that. Did there used to be an U17's match? I only ask as NZ has (or, at least, used to have) a national U17's squad that never played any matches. It was just kind of there. Always seemed odd to me. Now I'm just wondering if it might've been a hangover from those matches?

 

[Hugie]

I think that rugby in Australia has some things going for it.

• The JGC is a very good program and has league in the Illawarra worried. However it is played at the wrong time of year, isn't marketed hard enough and goes no where.
• The districts (city and country) can pull together some very good talent (as good as any private school could, even with scholarships) but they don't play enough full games as a team, with good coaching between games. I watched a number of the Southern District U18 games a couple of years ago, they were as good as you would see in any private school comp and trained just as well. The talent is there and so is the coaching.
• Many of the facilities that clubs have access to here in the Illawarra are first class. Shamrocks have a first class ground and club house almost on Woonona beach. It is not uncommon for the boys to have a surf before and after training/game. Wollongong uni have first class grounds and gyms and access to trainers and physios at the uni. as does Vikings, Kiama etc etc.

However it all needs to be pulled together so that boys and girls can:

• Train once a week and play on Sundays if that is all they want.
• If they want train, 3 times a week (plus SC) and play a high level of rugby week in week out, if that is what they aspire to.
• Have a realistic pathway to a Junior Gold jersey if that is what they dream of.

I don't think that there is much money involved here, there needs to be a restructure, re-allocation of money, some culture change and more marketing. Along the lines of my post 1360.

 

[southsider]

It's not a myth.
Most if not all GPS Schools have a policy of not "allowing" students to play additional games.

The MIC of one GPS School told me of their policy of dropping kids to 3's if they were "caught" playing for clubs.
There was the fiasco at Another GPS School , when a high profile student defied them, to play a final with his club.He changed Schools as a result.

A parent at yet another GPS School explained his Schools policy of not "allowing" kids to play club, when justifying why his kids would stop playing club when School Rugby commenced
Etc etc etc

Having it written down and actually enforcing it are two completely seperate things. I'm not that many years out school, went to one of the better gps rugby schools, played club rugby and local rep rugby. I know at least 6 other guys in my year at school that did it too, including scholarship kids.

Now all well and good parents don't want to spend their whole weekend watching footy but let's call a spade a fucking spade it is very much possible to do both

 

[Quick Hands]

Isn't it all fairly academic unless the clubs can offer these 15-18 year olds anywhere near the opportunity/coaching/facilities/support that the private schools do?

And the ARU gets all of this for free, paid for by other fee paying parents.

Even NRL clubs are sending their scholarship kids through the GPS/rugby union system.

It may not be ideal for the sport, but what is the realistic alternative?

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The alternative is to have our own club based system over which we have total control.

I'm not quite so sure that NRL clubs send that many of their kids through the GPS school system. That very small group is largely made up of kids who the school has recruited or the even smaller group of aspirational parents who would prefer a good education to a few dollars in the hand.

How realistic this is, I'm not sure. I'm reasonably sure that it would have been realistic and achieveable in 2004 when the ARU had $30 million in the bank and the code was at a historic high. It's a longer and harder road now, but IMO it's what we should be working towards.

 

[Quick Hands]

Didn't know that. Did there used to be an U17's match? I only ask as NZ has (or, at least, used to have) a national U17's squad that never played any matches. It was just kind of there. Always seemed odd to me. Now I'm just wondering if it might've been a hangover from those matches?

Possibly.

 

[Braveheart81]

Absolute myth, just an excuse from parents that don't want to have their whole weekend taken up by footy

Having it written down and actually enforcing it are two completely seperate things. I'm not that many years out school, went to one of the better gps rugby schools, played club rugby and local rep rugby. I know at least 6 other guys in my year at school that did it too, including scholarship kids.

Now all well and good parents don't want to spend their whole weekend watching footy but let's call a spade a fucking spade it is very much possible to do both

It was absolutely the situation when I was at school in the 90s across a number of eastern suburbs private school (both GPS and CAS).

 

[Norfolk & Chance]

SJRU run it and it's a fairly unresponsive, arrogant association to deal with. Junior is only playing school this year, so thankfully I no longer have to deal with SJRU politics.

There seems to be enough clubs with private school dominated playing rosters to effectively torpedo change. If you want an idea on how ridiiculous things are there, here is an example:

In 10s to 12s, SJRU run a Friday night competition and a Sunday competition. You'd think that on that basis, clubs who want to play on Friday nights would go into the Friday night competition. Wrong. Because most of the teams in the Friday night competitions are from the Eastern and Southern suburbs, so the north shore clubs who want to play Friday nights (Chatswood, Hunters Hill and Lindfield in my experience), enter the Sunday competition and then ask SJRU to play all their home games on a Friday night. (Don't want to travel over the bridge do they) Unsurprisingly SJRU (who are dominated by such clubs) allow this to occur unless other clubs push the point (as my club did in our age group).

SJRU is full of decent people doing what they think is right, it's just unfortunate that they believe their ideas are the only good ideas.

 

[Norfolk & Chance]

Schools rugby isn't the problem, it's their independence which has allowed them to remain one of the true successful components of Australian rugby..

It's the development systems running parallel and following on after schools Rugby which are lacking

It certainly isn't a schools issue, but unfortunately the number of boys playing school rugby has dropped significantly in the lats 5 years as other sports / activities are available. As i said earlier, nobody has ownership of rugby, there is no coordinated approach. When it all becomes too hard it gets shoveled to someone else.

ARU to NSWRU, NSWRU to SJRU/District clubs, SJRU/district clubs to Village clubs and finally village clubs to parents and here we all are trying to solve the issues with absolutely no way of making change. people in high places might read these blogs but no one is listening.

As an example, i have a request with the ARU/NSWRU to advise me how any player can trial for the 7's program as I see 5 players who my son played against or with in the current 7's side. There would be between 30-50 young men who I think would excel at 7's but because they are not in the U20's or played ASB ,they are not looked at (except Tim Anstee), that request has been with them for 3 months and I'm talking to the correct people.

 

[papabear]

RUGBY NEEDS A MAJOR CULTURAL SHIFT TO BECOME MUCH MORE INCLUSIVE

Thorough post.

But just on the above point.

If you have a cultural shift to make it much more inclusive, ie its not a game for "rich" people etc etc but for the masses?

What happens to all the fans who follow the game primarily because of its "status"...

 

[southsider]

It was absolutely the situation when I was at school in the 90s across a number of eastern suburbs private school (both GPS and CAS).

so let me get this straight, your argument is between 10 to 20 years ago it was the case in a couple of eastern suburbs private schools (im guessing a combo of scots, cranbrook, waverly) that they couldnt play school and club rugby, so it must still be occurring now..........

 

[Braveheart81]

so let me get this straight, your argument is between 10 to 20 years ago it was the case in a couple of eastern suburbs private schools (im guessing a combo of scots, cranbrook, waverly) that they couldnt play school and club rugby, so it must still be occurring now....

The starting point of this conversation was about the SJRU deciding to move junior club rugby to Sundays. Most agreed that the decision was made in part because they wanted to be on a different day to the schools rugby specifically so it was more possible for the kids to play both club and school football.

I feel like you have jumped in halfway through the discussion and latched onto one point and disagreed with it without the basis for why it was being discussed.

 

[southsider]

The starting point of this conversation was about the SJRU deciding to move junior club rugby to Sundays. Most agreed that the decision was made in part because they wanted to be on a different day to the schools rugby specifically so it was more possible for the kids to play both club and school football.

I feel like you have jumped in halfway through the discussion and latched onto one point and disagreed with it without the basis for why it was being discussed.

No latching and totally understand why it was being discussed.

Saw something that I believed to be untrue and challenged it, same as you do when you see something you don't agree with.

 

[BAR]

Have you seen the numbers released by the ARU today? See link below.

Increased participation across all forms but 7.5% decrease in XVs in U12 to U18 age groups. Described as "disappointing but not unexpected". Seems almost fatalistic that phrase. The longer term aim should be how to retain the growth in the younger age groups and carry it into the U12 plus age groups. This leakage needs to be a focus, not just getting players in the door.

Hate to be overly cynical but I also wonder how many of the participants in other forms of the game are "unique". My experience is that many of the players tend to be doubling up (eg. XV and 7s). There's certainly going to be growth, but I suspect it isn't as significant as the raw numbers suggest.

http://www.aru.com.au/MediaReleases/Article/tabid/1699/ArticleID/18151/Sevens-Women’s-Rugby-and-Junior-Rugby-Increase-in-Historic-Olympic-Year.aspx

 

[Quick Hands]

Have you seen the numbers released by the ARU today? See link below.

Increased participation across all forms but 7.5% decrease in XVs in U12 to U18 age groups. Described as "disappointing but not unexpected". Seems almost fatalistic that phrase. The longer term aim should be how to retain the growth in the younger age groups and carry it into the U12 plus age groups. This leakage needs to be a focus, not just getting players in the door.

This is the very problem that Sunday club rugby was supposed to address when it was introduced 15-20 years ago.

Doesn't seem to be working. (As I in fact predicted at the time I might add - way before G&GR was wven thought of )

EDIT: and I'd add that the was also a 7% decrease in 15 a side club rugby the season before.