Declining participation and ARU plans for the future
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half
Dick Tooth (41)
Where to start and how to keep it simple is a challenge.
Today I had a non-business lunch / indoor BBQ with a client. The client owns and runs a small media company. He employs 7, plus the owner and his son. They are net based and do a lot of work for all the networks and other media companies. The work is threefold technical support, web based applications developed, and overnight web watching.
The contracts result in my client talking daily to the technical and production folk at the FTA networks as well as many other people. His company also does work for some sporting teams i.e in-house vids and sometimes youtubes put on various sporting club sites.
I should add at this point, this guy is a hard core rusted on Football fan.
Back to the BBQ conversation in a mo. On the rating thread today last night’s ratings were Channel Ten 181K and Fox 124 K in prime time that’s 315 K for a match that did get a reasonable amount of press.
In those rating my mind struggles to imagine there are many new folk. More the balance of the hard core and ageing rusted on.
During the week the talk on rugby has been about some super international club competition.
Back to the BBQ, my client said all the commercial FTA channels want the A-League, Socceroos and Matilda’s partly because sports rates but in the under 25 demographic were FTA struggle, soccer he says is stronger than any other code. He says all the technical folk and producers are talking about it. Further he says netball is also being talked about as a growth area. The rub is they all see rugby as slowly fading away because we have by some distance the oldest audience. Rugby is struggling against all other codes in growing the under 25 market.
Very soon rugby will be faced with a 12 team A-League, a 12 team netball, along with the 16 team RL maybe expanded to 18 teams, an 18 team maybe expanded to 20 team AFL. All of these will be national domestic competitions with the NRL and A-League having a NZ team as well. Media will become even more difficult.
Rugby with maybe five Super teams unless either Perth or Melbourne is cut.
By the time the current media deal is complete rugby will have been largely hidden away for 25 years on Fox.
Everyone with even half a brain should know in the Australian sporting environment it’s a national domestic competition played over 22 plus rounds plus finals that get media and fans.
Let me be as infract as I can. We need as a matter of urgency to develop and have ready a national domestic competition ready for implementation by the next media deal. If we go another round of SANDZZAR deals IMO we are signing off as a major code and retreating to a point of who cares anymore.
SANDZZAR competitions on Fox will not grow rugby it's that simple.
Today I had a non-business lunch / indoor BBQ with a client. The client owns and runs a small media company. He employs 7, plus the owner and his son. They are net based and do a lot of work for all the networks and other media companies. The work is threefold technical support, web based applications developed, and overnight web watching.
The contracts result in my client talking daily to the technical and production folk at the FTA networks as well as many other people. His company also does work for some sporting teams i.e in-house vids and sometimes youtubes put on various sporting club sites.
I should add at this point, this guy is a hard core rusted on Football fan.
Back to the BBQ conversation in a mo. On the rating thread today last night’s ratings were Channel Ten 181K and Fox 124 K in prime time that’s 315 K for a match that did get a reasonable amount of press.
In those rating my mind struggles to imagine there are many new folk. More the balance of the hard core and ageing rusted on.
During the week the talk on rugby has been about some super international club competition.
Back to the BBQ, my client said all the commercial FTA channels want the A-League, Socceroos and Matilda’s partly because sports rates but in the under 25 demographic were FTA struggle, soccer he says is stronger than any other code. He says all the technical folk and producers are talking about it. Further he says netball is also being talked about as a growth area. The rub is they all see rugby as slowly fading away because we have by some distance the oldest audience. Rugby is struggling against all other codes in growing the under 25 market.
Very soon rugby will be faced with a 12 team A-League, a 12 team netball, along with the 16 team RL maybe expanded to 18 teams, an 18 team maybe expanded to 20 team AFL. All of these will be national domestic competitions with the NRL and A-League having a NZ team as well. Media will become even more difficult.
Rugby with maybe five Super teams unless either Perth or Melbourne is cut.
By the time the current media deal is complete rugby will have been largely hidden away for 25 years on Fox.
Everyone with even half a brain should know in the Australian sporting environment it’s a national domestic competition played over 22 plus rounds plus finals that get media and fans.
Let me be as infract as I can. We need as a matter of urgency to develop and have ready a national domestic competition ready for implementation by the next media deal. If we go another round of SANDZZAR deals IMO we are signing off as a major code and retreating to a point of who cares anymore.
SANDZZAR competitions on Fox will not grow rugby it's that simple.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
Good post, Half, albeit a bit depressing.
They say that there is nothing like an imminent execution to concentrate the mind.
We can only hope. Although I doubt that any FTA network will be interested in picking up a domestic rugby competition, other than for a bit of filler on one of their backwater channels.
I fear that we can see the stable, we can see the open door, and can hear the sounds of the retreating hooves.
They say that there is nothing like an imminent execution to concentrate the mind.
We can only hope. Although I doubt that any FTA network will be interested in picking up a domestic rugby competition, other than for a bit of filler on one of their backwater channels.
I fear that we can see the stable, we can see the open door, and can hear the sounds of the retreating hooves.
Joe King
Dave Cowper (27)
For Australian rugby to ever win over its own backyard against all its competitor codes, something radical and revolutionary would be needed. So here goes something from left field.
The idea is to withdraw from Super Rugby and have *two* NRC seasons each year!
The NRC would run from March-May, and then again from August-October. The two 9 week competitions would be in the mould of the Big Bash League: two Sydney teams, two Brisbane teams, and one team each from Canberra, Melbourne, Perth and Adelaide. The teams would be run by the bodies that formally ran the Super Rugby teams. Alternatively, they could stick with the current NRC teams.
There’d be all the test players available. There’d be double the finals each year. There’d be double the winners each year. There’d be double the chance for one’s team to win the trophy.
Perhaps this would drive up its commercial value, and would create a real point of difference between rugby and every other code in Australia!
Rugby would be in a position to win the interest of fans in the first half of the year, and then have a real opportunity to win the interests of the fans in the second half of the year as well.
The two NRC seasons would be separated by a rich international season, which flows seamlessly from the June Tests into the Rugby Championship (June-August). This would provide enough time for the previous NRC to have drifted into the past, and for fans to be ready for the next season.
After the NRC (March-May), but before the June Tests, a proper ‘state of origin’ type tournament could be played, involving a round robin between a selected NSW Waratahs, Qld Reds, and ACT Brumbies/Combined States Team. This would be used to select the Wallabies for the June Tests and the Rugby Championship.
Other concepts to sell to the public and the broadcasters could involve a pre-season sevens or tens carnival between the NRC teams. Alternatively, this could be played some time between the two NRC’s during the June Tests and the Rugby Championship. Another pre-season idea is for the winner of the previous year’s NRC to play the winner of the previous year’s Mitre 10 Cup (NZ) or Currie Cup (SA).
Further down the track an u20’s NRC (and women’s NRC) could be added to run along side the main NRC. Along with this, there could be an u20’s ‘state of origin’ type tournament as well (u20’s Waratahs, Reds, Brumbies/Combined States), used to select an Australian u20’s team for the World Championships in June.
And I wonder if it would be a win for the premier clubs as well. They could have a longer season if they wanted (March-August), and also have the NRC players available during the June Tests and the Rugby Championship (June-August) to touch base with all the grass roots fans in all the premier club competitions around the country. And this would be *another* real point of difference between rugby and every other code in Australia.
The point is for rugby in Australia to fight back, to win over its own backyard, to no longer be dependant on SA and NZ, to build its own solid base from which to pick a strong Wallabies, and to take on the world.
I know it’s not realistic: no FTA station would have this vision, all the best players would go overseas, and rugby in Australia would decline even more.
However, it is sad watching its decline in its current form. Sigh.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
Not too sure about a split season. If we were to pull out from Super Rugby (very unlikely) we could just go to a double round with the NRC during the same window. This would return a 14 round season at present plus two weeks of finals for 16.
Return both the Waratahs and Reds brands to true representative structures. After the season ends a NSW and Queensland team are selected alongside a combined states team to play in a Tri-Series that will double as a Wallabies selection vehicle. Then move into the Test season.
Another option could be to move the NRC season further back to after the NRL and AFL season has finished. Less competition in terms of contact sports. The argument of losing pre-season for Super Rugby could be countered by the the argument that playing would be a better pre-season that running around a park.
With talk of effectively eliminating the June test window and moving it back to July I would also like to see The Rugby Championship look to include Japan (assuming their current progress continues) and go to one round. Add in another game against NZ for the Bledisloe and we could see 7-8 Tests in that period. I'd also have a rotating tour schedule with one year we host and inbound Test and another year we tour on an outbound series.
Wallabies could then have a 6-8 week rest period and join their respective NRC squads for round 1.
This way we have all the best available talent involved.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
When it comes to strategic planning, it is essential to set realistic objectives.
Given all the circumstances, there is just no way that rugby in this country will ever compete seriously with the NRL and AFL. I have enumerated the reasons often enough. Most are historical, all are inescapable. Australians just prefer the local games, the local competitions. So do the broadcasters and the sponsors.
I am not sure what we can aspire to, because I am not privy to the thinking of our broadcast partners. But they are the ones who hold the key to our future.
World Rugby obviously could not care less.
The only possibility I can glimpse for a burgeoning future is some kind of hybridisation. I personally think it is inevitable, given that there are a lot of wonderful athletes playing our sport, particularly in the Pacific, and it just makes sense to create a new sport that has all the advantages of rugby, without any of the disadvantages.
Okay, I know I have said all this before, and I know that it is not exactly popular. But my aim is not to be popular, it is to point out the bleeding obvious.
We are being left behind.
Given all the circumstances, there is just no way that rugby in this country will ever compete seriously with the NRL and AFL. I have enumerated the reasons often enough. Most are historical, all are inescapable. Australians just prefer the local games, the local competitions. So do the broadcasters and the sponsors.
I am not sure what we can aspire to, because I am not privy to the thinking of our broadcast partners. But they are the ones who hold the key to our future.
World Rugby obviously could not care less.
The only possibility I can glimpse for a burgeoning future is some kind of hybridisation. I personally think it is inevitable, given that there are a lot of wonderful athletes playing our sport, particularly in the Pacific, and it just makes sense to create a new sport that has all the advantages of rugby, without any of the disadvantages.
Okay, I know I have said all this before, and I know that it is not exactly popular. But my aim is not to be popular, it is to point out the bleeding obvious.
We are being left behind.
Highlander35
Steve Williams (59)
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
So we should be happy to eek out a megre existence and accept our place? As important as it is to set realistic objectives it's also necessary to implement them as part of a larger, far more ambitious plan.
As for Australians prefering local competitions and local sports. Sorry, that's not entirely accurate. Look at the ratings for the weekly NFL game on 7Two or tbe popularity of foreign Soccer leagues. Our market is drawn to quality or at the very least the perception of it. The NRL and AFL are the best product of their respective sports in the world. Albeit for both a fairly narrow world.
They also enjoy a great deal of FTA exposure. Which certainly helps. I for one think as a whole Super Rugby is a better producr than either one but thanks to 1) perception that Rugby is inherently inferior and 2) the significant lack of access to the majority of the marketplace it struggles for the necessary attention it needs.
Our only regular access to the wider market are tbe Wallabies who while yes have underperformed for some time now also operate in a more competitive international scene and often have games scheduled during the finals series of both its primary competitors. It's no coincidence that the ratings for the last two Tests have been poor considering those factors.
We have some serious hurdles to overcome and one of them is this belief that Rugby cannot appeal to the masses and compete. That we should be happy to be niche. I personally hate that.
I can only speak from personal experience of a small country town, but I have seen a lot of potential feed in rugby players at schoolboy level seriously injured.
Particularly at the U16 age group, this includes my son ( ruptured ACL, MCL & meniscus tear ). It seems every week in his comp there were players taken off the field with concussion, muscle tears, or ligament damage. Some of these not only very painful but costly and thus a large disincentive to playing the game.
Way back when I played I don't recall such injuries on such a regular basis. I have also observed the way the game is being played at schoolboys level has become a lot more overly aggressive which leads to players testing the limit of the games laws instead of respecting them. These juniors are starting to play much like the international level where it seems like a battle of attrition every game.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Particularly at the U16 age group, this includes my son ( ruptured ACL, MCL & meniscus tear ). It seems every week in his comp there were players taken off the field with concussion, muscle tears, or ligament damage. Some of these not only very painful but costly and thus a large disincentive to playing the game.
Way back when I played I don't recall such injuries on such a regular basis. I have also observed the way the game is being played at schoolboys level has become a lot more overly aggressive which leads to players testing the limit of the games laws instead of respecting them. These juniors are starting to play much like the international level where it seems like a battle of attrition every game.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Omar Comin'
Chilla Wilson (44)
Exactly. The lets leave Super Rugby and create our own NRL type domestic competition sounds good but it's not feasible. I can only see it happening if either a billionaire willing to lose a lot of money decides they want it to happen, or if the code truly does go broke and the only option is a retreat and a start from scratch (it'd be a 2nd level national competition as all our best players - top 50 at least I'd guess, would go overseas).
I think we just have to be honest that any growth in popularity of professional rugby in Australia (and money in the game here) will be tied to the growth of the game internationally. We're not going to out-NRL the NRL. We have to make Super Rugby and the Rugby Championships better, and figure out how to make the most of Sevens.
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
I think much of Super Rugby's current issues are largely structural. The format they chose for this season was just rubbish. They should have just stuck to the three conference structure from previous seasons. H/A in each conference and then three teams from the other two conferences. Contrary to some the derbies tended to be the games with the most interest in each conference and for the Australian audiences thpse featuring NZ sides.
There has been some suggestion in Irish papers of the Pro12 and SANZAAR feeling out the potential of a merger of some kind. Or perhaps its just the Irish looking to skip town and setting up something else.
As for Sevens I think there's huge opportunity regionally. It's just going to take a lot of hard work to take advantage of it.
Omar Comin'
Chilla Wilson (44)
I agree with you. I think the current structure of Super Rugby was always going to be a bridge towards future expansion, but 3 conferences of 6 would be better.
I think it'd be great if Pro12 and Super Rugby combined but it seems like a long shot.
Structure is only one problem though. The challenge for the ARU and the Super Rugby sides is just to get more people to care. To build up rivalries and tribalism. There's a lot of ingredients that go into that and our Super Rugby teams have too often provided case studies in what not to do!
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
True. I tend to think part of Super Rugby's strengths is also its weakness when it comes to our domestic market. A Super Rugby/Pro12 competition could be huge but part of me would prefer if we just took the Irish and Scottish franchises as they tend to draw the biggest crowds and audiences. Similar to the Rainbow Cup concept. Let the Welsh look to link up with the English system and well, the Italian squads would be a tougher choice.
It would also male it easier to actually build something along the lines of what you suggest. With our competition we prefer both the ANZ rivalry beyond that of our own teams. Even if we were to split the competition into four conferences of 6 across two divisions and by necessity incorporate the Sunwolves and Jaguares into our conferences
We could still present a competition more fitting woth our markets tastes and wants while still maintaining that international flavour.
If Super Rugby and the Pro12 were to merge I think they'd seriously need tp look at means to facilitate the competition moving to 6 conferences of 6 teams for a total 36 teams. Which would mean setting up at least another conference plus adding another Asian franchise.
Omar Comin'
Chilla Wilson (44)
Maybe it's better to just have 2 divisions (or 3 if you get out to 30+ teams) that each do a regular season in whichever way suits them with as many teams as suits them. Then the best teams from each qualify for some kind of international cup tournament.
I actually prefer the idea of having multiple titles, whereby there's divisional/regional finals and an entirely separate continental knockout cup with seedings based on league positions. So for example, lets say we have a 12 team Asia-Pacific Super Rugby tournament. After a round-robin there's a final (or even semi finals and a final) to determine a champion. Then a couple weeks later the top 4 or 6 could be involved in another straight knockout tournament with the best 4/6/8 or whatever from the other division(s). Meanwhile, a 2nd tier continental tournament could be played by the teams that fail to qualify.
Then you'd have years where a champion team could pull off the double (as in European rugby and soccer) and others where a team who lost the regional final or semi-final could redeem themselves by winning the international title. And teams that didn't have the best of seasons would still have a chance of winning some silverware and play knockout rugby.
WorkingClassRugger
Michael Lynagh (62)
It really depends on whether a Super Rugby/Pro12 merged competition or something of the like is possible. But if they moved to a division structure they could have a number of titles. Conference, division and overall championship.
half
Dick Tooth (41)
Omar I hear what you say about the loss of revenue / income and players moving overseas.
Moreover I understand where your coming from.
However both my patience in waiting for SANDZZAR to do something and my hope that SANDZZAR would treat Australian issues more seriously than their expansion plans, has now gone.
By the next media deal in 2020 we will have been a quarter of a century essentially under SANDZZAR management. Largely hidden away on Fox with our only product to the commercial FTA market a torn apart SS competition played in front of hundreds in sub standard parks not stadiums.
I have reached a point where I no longer have either faith or belief SANDZZAR can and wants to help. Meaning what you ask will never happen.
Somewhere a long way back when I first joined this forum a few months back, I argued that SANDZZAR was essentially set up by suits selling a sporting product who talked a bunch of well meaning but totally out of their depth Rugby sporting officials into a format.
The new approach in Australia turned traditional state teams into club teams and raided Shute teams and greatly lessened the standard of Rugby games shown on the ABC.
Maybe I am getting too old and cranky but as I see it SANDZZAR are setting calender's and have a vision of some world competition. If we go down this path we are doomed.
Its time we took back the game I honestly believe we will be better for it.
Moreover I understand where your coming from.
However both my patience in waiting for SANDZZAR to do something and my hope that SANDZZAR would treat Australian issues more seriously than their expansion plans, has now gone.
By the next media deal in 2020 we will have been a quarter of a century essentially under SANDZZAR management. Largely hidden away on Fox with our only product to the commercial FTA market a torn apart SS competition played in front of hundreds in sub standard parks not stadiums.
I have reached a point where I no longer have either faith or belief SANDZZAR can and wants to help. Meaning what you ask will never happen.
Somewhere a long way back when I first joined this forum a few months back, I argued that SANDZZAR was essentially set up by suits selling a sporting product who talked a bunch of well meaning but totally out of their depth Rugby sporting officials into a format.
The new approach in Australia turned traditional state teams into club teams and raided Shute teams and greatly lessened the standard of Rugby games shown on the ABC.
Maybe I am getting too old and cranky but as I see it SANDZZAR are setting calender's and have a vision of some world competition. If we go down this path we are doomed.
Its time we took back the game I honestly believe we will be better for it.
The torpedo
Peter Fenwicke (45)
The only hope we may have is the NRL match fixing scandal implicates star players, coaches, refs and executives
Omar Comin'
Chilla Wilson (44)
So you'd leave Super Rugby and have an expanded NRC for 22 rounds plus finals? I actually used to think this was a decent idea, but I've changed my mind. I like the fact that top international level club/franchise rugby, featuring the best players in the world, is played in Australia. With a domestic league in place of Super Rugby the only world class rugby in Australia would be the 6 or 7 Wallabies home games each year (filled with players based in Europe and Japan), and perhaps the odd tour from rich foreign clubs on branding exercises.
Personally I see this as a last resort if the game is truly on its knees, and I don't think that we're at that point yet. I'm afraid that rather than create a new A League or Big Bash, we'd create the new NBL - I see that as much more likely.
half
Dick Tooth (41)
Except its not working all that well.
I actually like the European Champions League type model were the best teams from each country play off adds additional spice to the weekly competition.
If we wait too long and we keep going a tad further back each year then at some point we will have passed the point of no or say limited return.
I actually like the European Champions League type model were the best teams from each country play off adds additional spice to the weekly competition.
If we wait too long and we keep going a tad further back each year then at some point we will have passed the point of no or say limited return.