wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
But not too passionately, eh?
Declining participation and ARU plans for the future
- Thread starter RugbyReg
- Start date
But not too passionately, eh?
half
Dick Tooth (41)
No one is arguing the concept of the NRC.
No one is arguing the need for a national domestic competition.
No one is arguing the need to grow both our major competitions and broadcast ratings.
The argument seems to be around the best mix to achieve. This is where the arguments begin.
In the background is both the answer and one of the biggest risk factors i.e More cashed up unions and teams buying our best players.
The for me anyway the stand out like the proverbial dogs B**ls is we live in Australia, were a sporting market has been developed largely based on two non international codes in AFL and RL.
FFA recognised this and some years ago main a public statement to the general population and their own fans which said the A-League is more important than the Socceroos.
In a strictly market sense, the Australian market place does not support second and third tier competitions. The Australian sporting market place supports local national domestic competitions.
The real number cruncher is revenue, that Super Rugby generates and the belief by some [an maybe rightly so] that if we walked away from Super Rugby the Tri Nations would go.
In summary the stay camp, although acknowledging structural issues, hope over time it will work out.
The change camp believe we are nearing a tipping point [new favourite buzz saying] were rugby by essentially standing still while, RL, Netball, Basketball, Cricket & Soccer are all talking of expansion and in local based Australian competitions, rugby will become unimportant to the wider Australian public.
TWAS my argument here is what works overseas is based on years of development and how the structure was established. IMO it will not work in the Australian sporting environment as I indicated above.
I don't think the NCR in its current form is a good competition, its way to short, and in the Australian market place will never be anything special as second and third trier competitions never are in Australia.
Further it was put together with way to much haste, and was an attempt to re open the ARC concept with less costs. From memory Puler from wo to go set up the NRC in about four to five months.
My thoughts again from some months ago are use the existing super teams, add 3 to 5 more and from this create a competition that the Australian public and market place want.
No one is arguing the need for a national domestic competition.
No one is arguing the need to grow both our major competitions and broadcast ratings.
The argument seems to be around the best mix to achieve. This is where the arguments begin.
In the background is both the answer and one of the biggest risk factors i.e More cashed up unions and teams buying our best players.
The for me anyway the stand out like the proverbial dogs B**ls is we live in Australia, were a sporting market has been developed largely based on two non international codes in AFL and RL.
FFA recognised this and some years ago main a public statement to the general population and their own fans which said the A-League is more important than the Socceroos.
In a strictly market sense, the Australian market place does not support second and third tier competitions. The Australian sporting market place supports local national domestic competitions.
The real number cruncher is revenue, that Super Rugby generates and the belief by some [an maybe rightly so] that if we walked away from Super Rugby the Tri Nations would go.
In summary the stay camp, although acknowledging structural issues, hope over time it will work out.
The change camp believe we are nearing a tipping point [new favourite buzz saying] were rugby by essentially standing still while, RL, Netball, Basketball, Cricket & Soccer are all talking of expansion and in local based Australian competitions, rugby will become unimportant to the wider Australian public.
TWAS my argument here is what works overseas is based on years of development and how the structure was established. IMO it will not work in the Australian sporting environment as I indicated above.
I don't think the NCR in its current form is a good competition, its way to short, and in the Australian market place will never be anything special as second and third trier competitions never are in Australia.
Further it was put together with way to much haste, and was an attempt to re open the ARC concept with less costs. From memory Puler from wo to go set up the NRC in about four to five months.
My thoughts again from some months ago are use the existing super teams, add 3 to 5 more and from this create a competition that the Australian public and market place want.
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Dick Tooth (41)
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
Correct.
The Tri Nations went four years ago.
By "walk away", you'd be talking not renewing the 4/5 year deal, rather than breaching the one currently operating. The Rugby Championship could well be a casualty of that, but I'd expect annual Bledisloe tests would remain.
Steve Tew wants to declare war on the NH end-of-year tests and he's not going to open a second front on his own doorstep.
The Bled is too valuable and convenient a money spinner to both unions to be cut for spite. Wouldn't say the same about the Puma or even Mandela Trophies which are just not as lucrative but you'd still see tests played with these countries, regardless of being in or out of Super Rugby, even if not absolutely every year. The reason being is that there are only a handful of test opponents that the Springboks or Pumas can meaningfully play.
Make it longer
Disagree. You can't "magic up" a profitable professional league out of thin air.
It was absolutely the right call to get the ARC reopened as the NRC. There can't be dithering on an existential question like that. Even your much-vaunted FFA had a national competition for quarter of a century before the A-League (btw, there are posters here who know Australian sokkah; while FFA have got some things right, it's not all roses there).
That doesn't mean all decisions in the NRC seasons so far since have been winners. But a national comp needs to be built on year by year. You've gotta start with something before you can retweak it.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
Well Wamberal not so passionately that they care more for the club than the game. Because when the right calls are made that impact some clubs, people walk away from the game.
That may be the NRC marginalizing the Shute Shield. That may be a perennially under-performing team being demoted a level.
But as long as people feel that their emotional interest should be front an center at any level below professionalism, there's always going to be problems.
The Fitzroy and North Sydney Bear situations are understandable. Regions were basically discarded by the professional game.
But otherwise not everybody can be at the top.
That may be the NRC marginalizing the Shute Shield. That may be a perennially under-performing team being demoted a level.
But as long as people feel that their emotional interest should be front an center at any level below professionalism, there's always going to be problems.
The Fitzroy and North Sydney Bear situations are understandable. Regions were basically discarded by the professional game.
But otherwise not everybody can be at the top.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
The point is, that a national competition doesn't marginalise Shute Shield or any similar competition in other cities. Those competitions will continue, their colts programmes will continue, their junior programmes will continue. Adding a level above could be and should be better for everyone - as long as those below have a stake in it's success.
And those who choose not to be part of it have to take their chances.
And those who choose not to be part of it have to take their chances.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Did the NPC, Currie Cup, Top 14, D2 etc etc etc disregard the history and following of the foundation teams? The NRC is cut from wholely new cloth, there is a base following of the rusted on supporters and those with some skin in the game. They are trying in a ultra competitive environment to build a competition from the ground up, with next to no significant media coverage with direct competition in League and the "lower" Rugby competitions. In this regard the comparison with the A league is accurate as they did the same thing by removing the old suburban clubs from the picture. But that is where the comparison ends because the support base was always bigger for the start up A league and a significant media was arranged very early on.
I love Rugby and would love to see it the dominant sport in Australia, however I simply do not see a business plan that allows the NRC to succeed in growing the game to that point where it has failed to take a large portion of its existing fan base with it. It also has to be said that the downside risks of the NRC go beyond the financial loss, it is the loss of opportunity, time with a precarious financial position and the burning of what I can only call political capital.
That is even before we get back to my argument about the development aspects of the NRC.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
If I want pure speed I'll watch 7s. I want to see good 15s rugby, which I used to see at pro level in Oz but find I can only see in NZ from Southern hemisphere teams now.
"Development" is Pulver's key word and he holds up Hunt as an example of 'coming out of the NRC" FFS the bloke was signed to a Pro Super Contract before he payed a game. Development my arse. Are the skills better Bill?
I'd also like to see the media deal that guarantees the NRC until 2020. Is that money from the Super Rugby competition or money for the NRC specifically and is there a FTA component in that as well because without that (even with streaming) it just will not make the inroads.
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Dick Tooth (41)
Starting to go round in circles somewhat. Gnosic again hits the head of the nail.
As I see in in very simple terms, the NCR can never be anything other than a preparation competition for Super Rugby and from there national players. Third tier competitions in Australia will never other than to a unique hard core be meaningful.
Super Rugby is not a national domestic competition and its very structure means it never can.
Kiap agree FFA have not got everything right no one has. But from where soccer was to now has not gone unnoticed nor without sound management on the whole. But what this has to do with our decision making I am unsure they set up a new national competition.
As I see in in very simple terms, the NCR can never be anything other than a preparation competition for Super Rugby and from there national players. Third tier competitions in Australia will never other than to a unique hard core be meaningful.
Super Rugby is not a national domestic competition and its very structure means it never can.
Kiap agree FFA have not got everything right no one has. But from where soccer was to now has not gone unnoticed nor without sound management on the whole. But what this has to do with our decision making I am unsure they set up a new national competition.
dru
David Wilson (68)
My understanding: Currie cup started as representational teams created from the Provincial RUs. They can have anything from 50 to over 100 teams including all elements of community rugby.
Same is Aus except there were only two relevant provinces (States). Great state rivalry but not enough for a national comp.
Later with professionalism those RU representational teams morphed into professional organisations with independent contracts, and the arrangements vary from RU to RU. The Currie Cup is now distorted by a twin tier arrangement, not on promotion/relegation but gifted on the basis of RUs that have been offered Franchise status (Super Rugby).
Where they have needed to build a smaller group of teams for super rugby they initially started with attempts to use the teams from the winning RUs. There was consistency over time in the "haves" and "have nots". What we are seeing with the 6th Franchise in SA comes back to problems inherent in selecting "traditionally strong" clubs over others rather than working up front from a representational system. There remains a lot of angst in the "Franchise" v "club" issue in SA.
I think it would be similar here if we were to select a national comp based on the so-called "traditionally strong" Premier clubs. Which would ignore the non-Shute Shield western Sydney and require someone to decide who gets cut anf faviur NSW over the traditionally strong Qld teams. And the more recent comers from other States who should be supported as well.Much better to start with a representational basis.
The NRC is not at all perfection in this representational system, but it is settling over time, and all traditional premier clubs have had a chance to put in dibs.
Not perfect, too late, but much better so far I think than some of the mess we see developing in SA. And only one state has a problem in connecting between is RU, Premier clubs and the NRC. I see a problem, but for me its not the ARU or the NRC.
Sydney heal thyself.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
A lot of "nevers". Some things come down to semantics. More on this below.
Yeah, soccer set up a new national comp. But most of the teams were old, came from the old national soccer comp and with the same old owners.
Soccer booted out five traditional clubs in Sydney and replaced 'em with one city club (please convey to anyone hammering in nails). They did a league rebrand and revamped the remnants.
So newness was a matter of degree. An oversubscription of pro teams already playing in a national league gave them the basis to reform with. As it was, it took more than a year to kick off. But they couldn't have succeeded in that timeframe without the existing comp. You need to build for many years to get a substantive national league.
You already know that Super Rugby won't be dropped especially soon (if at all), although I won't stake that with a never. But if it was to happen, the national tier below would have to make gains first with Super Rugby still in place (and combined with an extended slide in the Super competition).
I'm unsure what the huge gains made by the FFA and the A-League actually are.
Aside from a couple of marquee games, crowds are a struggle for most teams and TV audiences haven't grown despite some FTA exposure.
The league doesn't generate the sort of money to compete with overseas leagues so almost all our best players still play overseas and certainly our league isn't at a high enough standard that it makes sense for our national team players to be based here.
Soccer has a far, far greater natural advantage in terms of fans and players in Australia and they have struggled greatly to make many of them pay attention to the A-League.
One lesson I think we can take from the A-League is to think what the following for an Australian domestic rugby competition would be like as a percentage of our overall fan base if we didn't have many of our best players based here. If the standard was obviously substantially lower than a multitude of other foreign leagues that could be watched on TV, how much of the fan base wouldn't pay much attention?
Aside from a couple of marquee games, crowds are a struggle for most teams and TV audiences haven't grown despite some FTA exposure.
The league doesn't generate the sort of money to compete with overseas leagues so almost all our best players still play overseas and certainly our league isn't at a high enough standard that it makes sense for our national team players to be based here.
Soccer has a far, far greater natural advantage in terms of fans and players in Australia and they have struggled greatly to make many of them pay attention to the A-League.
One lesson I think we can take from the A-League is to think what the following for an Australian domestic rugby competition would be like as a percentage of our overall fan base if we didn't have many of our best players based here. If the standard was obviously substantially lower than a multitude of other foreign leagues that could be watched on TV, how much of the fan base wouldn't pay much attention?
half
Dick Tooth (41)
Last post for a while, work is starting to pile up and clients wanting their work and me wanting money so its back to hi ho hi ho its off to and no more blogging for a week or so.
Just very quickly on soccer and the A_league, I accept what both Braveheart and kiap say, although crowds and rating lag slightly behind rugby on averages, nobody can say since the A_league started soccer has not grown a lot from the ethnic based competition they once had.
On junior player numbers I am looking out my sunroom, my office is being refurbished today and on Somerville Park right now is a private school training and playing.
Guest what game maybe 60 kids on the oval.
a] Soccer
b] Rugby
c] Touch
d] AFL
The answer is D, AFL , what that means I have no idea.
My ideas I accept are not shared by many nay most on this site, or for that matter rugby folk I chat too as well. Having said that my heart and head tells me Super Rugby on pay will struggle to grow both ratings and to bring in new players. After 20 odd years growth is today limited and with only 5 Australian teams, in a highly competitive market place I think is way to small.
On the NRC, as I have posted above, Australians don't generally support second and third tier competitions and I can't see the NRC unless it becomes the main competition becoming anything other than a development competition.
My suggestion of biting the bullet I acknowledge most don't agree with but I see it as the long term answer.
Cheers for now, got some bills to pay, back in a couple of weeks or so.
Just very quickly on soccer and the A_league, I accept what both Braveheart and kiap say, although crowds and rating lag slightly behind rugby on averages, nobody can say since the A_league started soccer has not grown a lot from the ethnic based competition they once had.
On junior player numbers I am looking out my sunroom, my office is being refurbished today and on Somerville Park right now is a private school training and playing.
Guest what game maybe 60 kids on the oval.
a] Soccer
b] Rugby
c] Touch
d] AFL
The answer is D, AFL , what that means I have no idea.
My ideas I accept are not shared by many nay most on this site, or for that matter rugby folk I chat too as well. Having said that my heart and head tells me Super Rugby on pay will struggle to grow both ratings and to bring in new players. After 20 odd years growth is today limited and with only 5 Australian teams, in a highly competitive market place I think is way to small.
On the NRC, as I have posted above, Australians don't generally support second and third tier competitions and I can't see the NRC unless it becomes the main competition becoming anything other than a development competition.
My suggestion of biting the bullet I acknowledge most don't agree with but I see it as the long term answer.
Cheers for now, got some bills to pay, back in a couple of weeks or so.
Strewthcobber
Simon Poidevin (60)
Couple of interesting snippets from Gideon Haigh's article on the ARU thread.
----------
FFA now make three quarters of their revenue from domestic leagues v the Socceroos, a five years ago that ratio was reversed.
But the kicker....
Owners have lost $300m in the competition’s lifespan, and the price of rapid expansion has been recurrent instability – Melbourne City is the only club in which the FFA has not had at one time or other to take a stake.
-------------
----------
FFA now make three quarters of their revenue from domestic leagues v the Socceroos, a five years ago that ratio was reversed.
But the kicker....
Owners have lost $300m in the competition’s lifespan, and the price of rapid expansion has been recurrent instability – Melbourne City is the only club in which the FFA has not had at one time or other to take a stake.
-------------
half
Dick Tooth (41)
Strew
Took a bit of time off work, your above post was playing on my mind so I asked the "Boss" i.e She Who Must be Obeyed who is my go to soccer person.
The 300 M sounds about right but was lost mostly in the first 8 years under previous media deals and less sponsorship. The Socceroo revenue has increased and as you point out has gone from most of the income to less than 25%. The Boss says FFA believe after their next media deal all clubs will be profitable.
Back to rugby lets hope the NRC is as successful as its supporters believe it can be.
Took a bit of time off work, your above post was playing on my mind so I asked the "Boss" i.e She Who Must be Obeyed who is my go to soccer person.
The 300 M sounds about right but was lost mostly in the first 8 years under previous media deals and less sponsorship. The Socceroo revenue has increased and as you point out has gone from most of the income to less than 25%. The Boss says FFA believe after their next media deal all clubs will be profitable.
Back to rugby lets hope the NRC is as successful as its supporters believe it can be.
half
Dick Tooth (41)
I live in Pearl avenue and also have a house and practice on the Central Coast.
FFS mate when it was still a dairy like those two houses who refused to swap their blocks to Pearl Avenue and are still on Blaxland Road.
You would still remember what old timers talk about Eastwood oval with bags around it on game days when Eastwood played their before moving to TGM. Hillview stopped training at Eastwood oval maybe three years ago now times are changing. The Eastwood club once a defacto rugby club would be lucky to have anyone who could name an Eastwood test player of any time.
RRRrrrrrr remembers the days when lots of kids wore the white and blue Eastwood shirts around with pride and shops had signed shirts. Were is Dr Who .
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
I was actually born in Eastwood, at St Edmunds Private Hospital, which used to be in Clanalpine Street, just around the corner from my first home in Trelawney Street.
I can clearly remember the sounds of battle from the old Eastwood Oval, I was 7 in their first season.
My mum had been a Western Suburbs supporter, and was a bit miffed that they had been kicked out! A lot of the first cohort of players came from Wests, of course.
And a couple of years later I was allowed to walk up the hill to the old Oval and watch the game.
We moved to Doomben Avenue when I was 13. We could still hear the whistle, and I still walked to all the home games.
I started playing there when they started up an under 16s competition on Saturday mornings, and then went on to play under 18s and then grade.
Eastwood Oval was a real s**t-heap, I picked up golden staph playing there, from an infected scar.
Happy days!
I can clearly remember the sounds of battle from the old Eastwood Oval, I was 7 in their first season.
My mum had been a Western Suburbs supporter, and was a bit miffed that they had been kicked out! A lot of the first cohort of players came from Wests, of course.
And a couple of years later I was allowed to walk up the hill to the old Oval and watch the game.
We moved to Doomben Avenue when I was 13. We could still hear the whistle, and I still walked to all the home games.
I started playing there when they started up an under 16s competition on Saturday mornings, and then went on to play under 18s and then grade.
Eastwood Oval was a real s**t-heap, I picked up golden staph playing there, from an infected scar.
Happy days!
half
Dick Tooth (41)
Sets the scene, I am at Ettalong Beach, the main street in a café sharing banana bread and coffee with “She who must be obeyed” .
Its Saturday around 10:30 the sun is warm, the day is pleasant.
As we drove into Ettalong there is a shared I think rugby ground between League and Union. It looked like league was being played as we drove by.
Parked the car, had a very nice walk and then to the café for cake and coffee and a read of the paper.
Sitting on a table next to us were two blokes my guess in their early 30’s. One was wearing a St George shirt the other a Souths shirt. Next to them was a young couple with a baby in a pram, across from us was couple of similar age to us. The waitress say late teens was serving a meal.
The fellow and his wife with the baby started talking about the Mariners being knocked out of the FFA Cup by a State team. I kid you not everyone joined the conversation and “She who must be obeyed” as I have said before a soccer fan. The RL blokes then brought in that the champs were essentially beaten by a local park team in Queensland. Even the waitress was giving her thoughts, the entire café which was packed began talking about in. A fellow waiting at the counter for a take away who seemed to be knowledgeable was explaining the in & outs of the FFA Cup.
I through to myself as all this was going on I doubt many in the packed café were actually soccer fans. Moreover many could not have even been sports fans in general. But by heck everyone seemed to know the story and everyone was cheering for the lower teams.
As I said my throughs went too, what has rugby got to just draw this much attention and goodwill to itself. Nothing I could think of. A penny dropped even at my age, this is one of the many ways soccer gets people into their junior teams by creating this anyone can win even if the other side is better. Add the no contact and the soccer mums.
I then said to myself why can’t we set up a national touch mid-week competition and try to do the same.
Its Saturday around 10:30 the sun is warm, the day is pleasant.
As we drove into Ettalong there is a shared I think rugby ground between League and Union. It looked like league was being played as we drove by.
Parked the car, had a very nice walk and then to the café for cake and coffee and a read of the paper.
Sitting on a table next to us were two blokes my guess in their early 30’s. One was wearing a St George shirt the other a Souths shirt. Next to them was a young couple with a baby in a pram, across from us was couple of similar age to us. The waitress say late teens was serving a meal.
The fellow and his wife with the baby started talking about the Mariners being knocked out of the FFA Cup by a State team. I kid you not everyone joined the conversation and “She who must be obeyed” as I have said before a soccer fan. The RL blokes then brought in that the champs were essentially beaten by a local park team in Queensland. Even the waitress was giving her thoughts, the entire café which was packed began talking about in. A fellow waiting at the counter for a take away who seemed to be knowledgeable was explaining the in & outs of the FFA Cup.
I through to myself as all this was going on I doubt many in the packed café were actually soccer fans. Moreover many could not have even been sports fans in general. But by heck everyone seemed to know the story and everyone was cheering for the lower teams.
As I said my throughs went too, what has rugby got to just draw this much attention and goodwill to itself. Nothing I could think of. A penny dropped even at my age, this is one of the many ways soccer gets people into their junior teams by creating this anyone can win even if the other side is better. Add the no contact and the soccer mums.
I then said to myself why can’t we set up a national touch mid-week competition and try to do the same.
kiap
Steve Williams (59)
Interestingly, up until 2013, you could see statements from Touch Football Australia (TFA) along the lines of; TFA continued its informal relationship with the ARU, particularly in relation to Rugby Sevens.
And then rugby league came on board and took over. All those 1 million participants, associated leverage and grants, are now under the RL wing.