Declining participation and ARU plans for the future

[wamberal]

Strew / Wam / Gnos

If I am reading your posts correctly we are in a non reversible down-would spiral that can be slowed down but not stopped.

I guess I am saying we are heading towards this point and you are saying we are past this point. Or have I not fully understood your posts.

Back in the fifties the game here was on the brink of extinction as an international sport, and we were saved by a couple of sensationally successful inbound Fijian tours.

I believe we are in a similarly parlous situation, partly because our fortunes as a sport depend too heavily on (a) our national team continuing to be competitive, and thus able to attract sponsorship, viewers, and spectators. Any prolonged period of failure would be disastrous. (B) Fox Sports retaining a commercial interest in our involvement in Super Rugby. The media landscape is changing, apart from anything else, which adds a level of uncertainty which we just do not need.

Am I optimistic? I believe we can ans should survive, but it willl require World Rugby to get serious about the Laws of the Game and particularly removing some of the idiocy of scrums as a "contest" subject to arbitrary and baffling adjudication, the rolling maul (the only phase of game in which the ball carrier can not be tackled - try explaining that to a newcomer to our game), and of course the contest for possession after a tackle, the adjudication of which demands the forensic skills of a medieval theologian, and is similarly uninteresting to the layperson.

Finally, World Rugby simply has to do something to introduce a system of transfer fees. We have a couple of hundred Aussies playing in foreign leagues: why are we not compensated for producing them.


Again, am I optimistic that these sorts improvements will be implemented?


Nup.

 

[Gnostic]

Strew / Wam / Gnos



If I am reading your posts correctly we are in a non reversible down-would spiral that can be slowed down but not stopped.



I guess I am saying we are heading towards this point and you are saying we are past this point. Or have I not fully understood your posts.

I never say something is 100% until it happens, until that point it is probabilities. Given the trajectory and what I see as structural management philosophy I have to say that I think the probability is that the trajectory is towards Rugby going broke in Australia as a professional game sooner rather than later. Do not forget it was a fortuitous 11th hour Fox deal this time with significant revenue from NH re-sellers that allowed them to stave off the Reaper this time.

Do I think it can be halted and turned around. Yes, unequivocally yes, but not with the current structure. Not only can we not support 5 professional sides in playing depth we cannot support them with current revenue streams. How many will report a break even budget this year. For real, not a confected one achieved by selling capital items they didn't really own in the first place? One out of 5 if we are lucky. Since 5 sides came in this is probably the trend for reporting with at most one province breaking even in any one year. So whilst I do think the slide could be stopped and the game recover from this state, I do not think it is possible under anybody currently involved in running the game. They have been intrinsically involved in getting it to where it is and I do not doubt they are trying their best, but as I have stated before the whole philosophy is fundamentally flawed and I doubt they can even identify it as a problem, being in the system means they are likely to have been "Captured Cognitively" as described by Krugman and Stiglitz et al.

Rugby is my only sport, I support nothing else and have at best passing interest in other sports when Australia is competing and when not, then not at all. I truly love the game and it pains me to have followed its largely predictable demise since 2003.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^And sadly, many of us at the bottom have seen this coming for years. The wilful blindness of those running the game in ignoring all but the professional and the private schools has been nothing short of a disgrace. It's only now when it is hitting home at the elite level have those in charge lifted a meaningful finger to do anything about it.

It was posted on one of the other threads that the 1977 NSW Schoolboys team contained 13 CHS players out of a squad of 20. Compare to the 2016 version, which has something like 3 out of 23 and the issue is fairly obvious. The game in the state system and the game at club level are closely related. They are the canaries in the rugby coal mine.

It has also allowed our more recent administrators to be drawn from a fairly narrow gene pool of private school old boys (who have a particular world view) rather than from a cross section of the community as was once the case. Hence the level of group think across all levels of the elite part of the game - from schoolboys through 20s to open age.

 

[rugbyking2]

I still remain perplexed at the inability of the ARU to capitalise on the interest Rugby generates at certain times, e.g. World Cup final, Sydney 7s. To supplement my University study I work part-time at an after school care centre and post Sydney 7s all they wanted to play in the afternoon was 'touch Rugby Union.'

The stellar weekend it was obviously drummed up interest from many Sydneysiders yet there was no capitalisation on this. Surely Pulver and co could have done some aggressive marketing to boost registration numbers at the beginning of the season, but no, I cannot recall seeing any promotion what so ever. A simple well-devised advertisement or school program will draw kids in to play, I have seen it first hand with the AFL promoting the game in the same school and many kids playing AFL now. Pulver, who I believe graduated university with a degree marketing should have an input in growing the game.

 

[half]

Let me start this post with my admiration for those rusted on hard core posters who have been through thick and thin. While rugby has always been my number one sport, my life circumstances has resulted in me being exposed to a number of sports.

Chiefly as “She Who Must Be Obeyed” is fairly sporty having played for NSW in softball, is in a big swimming club and we have had BBQs at our house with three that I know Olympians including Shane Gould, Finally she only recently because of a knee replacement stopped playing soccer at an All Age Div 3 level [she is in her early 60’s] and played with two former Matilda’s.

Two of our three boys played soccer, turning to the dark their mother lead them too.

Cricket was also a game played by all three boys, but they stopped in their early teens.

I have also played Over 35 soccer.

Meaning I guess I was never the hard core rusted on, more I was the keen supporter, and to a certain extent my knowledge of what other sports did was never well received when I would mention others do it differently.

What I can say is at grassroots, rugby has always IMO been hopeless when compared to other codes. Most has been because of terrible administration pertaining to when the private schools run their Saturday competition and raid or take back their players. Resulting in local clubs games week to week being one sided.

Pulver to his credit recognised the problem the first CEO to acknowledge it existed. His solution was negligent it has hurt and will continue to hurt in the future. For those that don’t know to solve the issue he moved the Saturday junior competition to Sunday. So Sunday morning replaces Saturday morning and no cross with the private schools.

The result is a huge fall in player numbers, who wants to give up their Sunday morning, and some people still go to church on Sunday morning. Epping Rugby and Hillview Rugby [Eastwood] lost all their junior teams. Inept, incompetent, bungling, ineffectual, useless but most of all negligent as it has hurt our junior team numbers and many people at that level have walked away to the well organised and run soccer competitions.

I implore posters to explore this link and it’s from She Who Must Be Obeyed in her job as a teacher. It shows one of the biggest school competitions in the world scroll down and read the teams who have made the final 32 in both girls and boys, especially the boys. Also look at the sponsors especially FFA and Football State Association’s. http://www.billturnersoccer.com.au/about

I know everyone thinks I am mad, but we can recover but not if we are slaves of SANDZAAR wants.


We need to get back control of our game, have faith in the game.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^Pretty much agree with this. The only thing, Pulver wasn't CEO when Sunday junor club rugby was brought in. JON was running the ARU at that time and it originally only applied in Northern Zone - Southern and Western Zones ran Saturday competitions. I was out of junior club rugby for 5 years or so, and when I returned I learnt that the SJRU had mounted a hostile takeover of the 3 zones and now ran all juniors Sydney wide. It's a train wreck which involves 10 year olds traversing Sydney for a 40 minute game of rugby.

I've lost the battle on Sunday club juniors, but I can at least in good conscience say that I was one of those in the minority in the late 90s who argued against it. Unfortunately everything that the minority said all those years ago has come to pass.

 

[half]

Quick

I could be some would argue differently are mad.

We have to make a start and we need to break into schools, all schools and get in before league.

Please look at the link I posted about from the boss. the link again http://www.billturnersoccer.com.au/about

If we started a boys and girls under 15 tag school competition and sponsored it.

FFA have had less money than us but they have selectively sponsored key programs to grow soccer can only be admired.

Look at this concept and think outside the box what can't the ARU create a similar tag competition. It will take years but so did this. At least its a start and its a working model.

Love your thoughts.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Rugbynutter39

Thanks for the nice words.

You and a couple of others seem to understand the urgency [if that is not too strong a word], of our position.

I copped a bit and I started to repeat myself so stopped posting what I see as the starting point.

Pages 9 thru to 14 I start building and then somewhere in those pages even attempt to post costings.

My reading of the Tea Leafs is SANDZAAR is more concerned about itself and growing the Super Rugby brand than they are about the Australian game. Moreover we are seen somewhat as bringers of our own fate by other members of SANDZAAR and why should they pay more than they do know to fix ARU problems.

At the core of our issues is money or lack their of would explain it better. Along with a lack of funds is the lack of a large pyramid base to supply players to the more senior sides and workable pathways for talented players. AFL and NRL are raiding our rep sides from U 15 to U 18, and soccer embarked about 8 years ago to identify their best players from U 10 to U 16 and keep those players and they have whereas previosly 70% would have gone to other codes.

My estimate of our current revenue is 130 million based on the new TV deal worth 60 million, 36 million dollars in other ARU revenue like ticket sales to test matches [this was calculated when the media deal was 24 million with a 60 million revenue] the final 34 million my guess on Super teams gate and sponsorship revenue.

My solution is back some ways in pages 9 to 14. Have an 8 team Australia only competition using the existing 5 teams + Western Sydney out of Penerith, a Combined Newcaster Hunter Central Coast to play out of a small stadium + one other. Will get IMO between 70 & 80 million in revenue and that is the starting point. Have faith in the game it will make the 70 to 80 million and will grow from there.

And there lies the problem half - our main SANZAR partners of NZ and SA already have strong domestic competitions underneath Super Rugby as a pathway which provide for wide professional opportunities. So Super Rugby and its growth will not solve alone our problems and there focus on Super Rugby product is not aligned to growing the product which will help growth of Oz rugby below that. But not discounting still at this point important product but need a strong national domestic competition below this yes. NRC is very much about the launchpin for this where with time would be great if could leverage this into fully fledged national professional domestic competition (like what US trying to do which is better starting point for them - rather than seeking to join Super Rugby at this point). With a new national domestic comp would need to revisit other products e.g what do with Super Rugby product and whether move it perhaps a Heineken Cup format or just have less teams with focus on national domestic comp, same for nrc as would need to revisit what role it plays and how would be revamped or exist with long form national domestic comp .

But to state changes is just limited to need for domestic competition etc etc would really limit that wholesale change is needed across the board but takes time. And what hence needs to do is look at thinking outside the square and new approaches across the board.

What we know still has to be addressed:

1. Getting more money into the game - yes TV deals but rich benefactors / corporate partners part of this. That opens up a bigger debate
2. Getting the game into state / high schools and with different products (sevens, oz tag etc) - yes strategy talks about that but the how is not clear as we know this is not easy. To get this happening we need to think outside the box and do something different as rugby does not have 20 years here to sort this out. We need dramatic change here as highlighted in 70's how many CHS members of Australian Schoolboys rapidly declined.
3. Getting a strong national domestic (professional but maybe start with semi professional at first). Sorting out lot of other things per other points will need to be done I suggest before can do this as this is risky financially. Hence the cautious NRC approach after the 1 year ARC experiment. Got to be careful here as this could equally cripple Oz rugby if rushed ahead so I get in many ways what they are trying to do with NRC and making that a success would be good base to work from. Got to get NRC right first perhaps?
4. Sorting out the currently decentralized / fractured administration model which inhibits change (NSW rugby case in point as minefield of politics). The whole rugby governance structure in Australia rugby needs to be revamped imo. This is where League, AFL and A-League have it all over rugby.
4. Preparedness to adapt the product to create wider appeal (rugby law changes and focus on shortened versions like 7's part of this). Yes strategy is about this but just reiterating the importance of this as in today's market the ability for sporting codes to be more agile and adapt, extend and create different products to appeal to consumers who are increasingly time poor and have so much competition for their attention and competing for their interest (both at a player, support staff such as referees, coaches etc, and fan level who all are key elements)

I note the recent appointment of Mick Bryne btw and his wider development role for developing skills across the board below the wallabies as a positive. Just more of the same please as will take a lot of change to move rugby forward as the code in this country as we pay the price for last few decades of slow pace of change. Will require innovative game changing strategies like what Cricket and A-league has done successfully in recent times to spark or re-spark interest and create growth opportunities.

 

[half]

^^^Pretty much agree with this. The only thing, Pulver wasn't CEO when Sunday junor club rugby was brought in. JON was running the ARU at that time and it originally only applied in Northern Zone - Southern and Western Zones ran Saturday competitions. I was out of junior club rugby for 5 years or so, and when I returned I learnt that the SJRU had mounted a hostile takeover of the 3 zones and now ran all juniors Sydney wide. It's a train wreck which involves 10 year olds traversing Sydney for a 40 minute game of rugby.

I've lost the battle on Sunday club juniors, but I can at least in good conscience say that I was one of those in the minority in the late 90s who argued against it. Unfortunately everything that the minority said all those years ago has come to pass.

Quick

RRRRRRRR those meetings and arguments about the local district team and direction.

OMG I can recall three teams combined into one and each team telling council they had a team.

I can recall when parents arrived with little to no rugby knowledge, how they were kinda made aware of their lack of knowledge, rarely did anyone get alongside them and explain the rules.

Best example I recall, I blew up more than once at a team and was almost not banned that would be exaggerating but certainly told to mind my tongue and that I was reading too much into it. This was a team based out of Epping and Eastwood and we had an Asian player of not great rugby skill and both his parents came to games. His Dad picked him up from training. The coach gave him the nick name of Aussie [everyone called his Aussie including club officials] because he could not pronounce his name. His game time was limited because of essentially his lack of knowledge of rugby. He actually needed more game time than any player to help him develop. His parents spoke broken English and few helped them understand rugby. Guess what code he played the next year, were he and his parents were welcomed talked too and a division level found were his skills were suited. Six years latter the same kid was playing reps and you can guess what code.

Don’t get me started on Sydney Uni raiding western Sydney well not only western Sydney if we are honest.

I have seen so many people walk away from rugby because of the management of juniors. Marketing experts say two things about disgruntled clients, first they don’t come back. Second do a good job and people may tell a couple of other people do a bad job and they will tell the world.


I often think we should raid the AFL for our next CEO and his 2IC should be from soccer as then we would have people who know how to develop local competitions and develop national club competitions.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^One of the initiatives which Manly Juniors have implemented (about 2 years ago) is that from 14s on, the village junior clubs pool player resources. It was originally met with hostility from SJRU, who blocked it for a few years.

What is means is that it's much more likely that boys in the older age groups will be playing at a suitable level for their skill set and build etc. Prior to that you would have teams with a wide range of playing abilities in their ranks, so that if a team had half a dozen good players they would go into a higher division and the weaker players wouldn't get much of a go, or would find themselves totally out of their depth, or get hurt or just not enjoy it too much. Another scenario was that a team had a couple of good players, so would go into a lower division. The better players often didn't enjoy this as they were so much better than everyone else and they were often poached by a club in a higher division the next year.

So MJRU decided to bring back the extinct Manly Vikings club (where I played for 12 seasons) so now, from 14s on the players who are left in the club system register with their own club, but all the players in the district are grouped into teams of like ability. They now play with and against boys of similar size and ability. Numbers up, more teams, players enjoy the rugby experience and everyone wins.

 

[Braveheart81]

I often think we should raid the AFL for our next CEO and his 2IC should be from soccer as then we would have people who know how to develop local competitions and develop national club competitions.

FYI, the current CEO of the AFL earned about 2.5x what Bill Pulver is paid by the ARU and that was only his first full year in the job.

 

[wamberal]

Half,


I admire your optimism. Soccer and the AFL have national competitions because they are popular sports at, and with, the grass roots.


I really do not know what anybody from the AFL or soccer could tell us that we do not already know.


Their games are both relatively simple to watch and they are apparently more enjoyable to play than our game. Ditto for the NRL.


That is our problem in a nutshell, our game is an acquired taste (although the taste can be acquired quickly, sometimes!), their games can be understood pretty much on sight.

 

[half]

Wam & Brave H

First we don't need the top AFL or soccer guy, just good executives within their ranks.

Lyle Gorman, set up the Mariners and got their COE off the ground, went to FFA as head of the A-League and turned the A-League around, he set up WSW, and is now at the basket case that was Cronulla. He is the type of person we need. His cost would be similar if not less than Pulver.

As for the arguments about simple to watch regarding AFL that is simply not true, it is the most non TV game in history and is so scrappy.

I am suggesting we need people who come from backgrounds where building grass roots competitions and national domestic competitions is second nature.

We have been in steady decline since the early 60's and Pulver is left holding the bag so to speak. However and as an example did Frank Lowy look for a Football person as his CEO. No first JON [ARU], then Ben Buckley [AFL] then Gallop [NRL and Cricket].

Pulver's private school background and his rugby background shows little experience in areas outside were we still hold relative strengths. Up front example and is a discussion on another thread, our new state of excellence training facility is in Moore Park. By heck this sends a message .

All games are an acquired taste, Rugby slightly more.

 

[Quick Hands]

Half,

While I am generally a super rugby supporter and have been so since it's inception. I agree with you to the extent that it doesn't provide what the game really needs in Australia at the moment. The expansion has made it worse. The reasons that I have come around to this are: home games are irregular and there aren't really enough of them to spark interest, away games (particularly in South Africa) are played at times when no one watches, we are subject to the needs of other nations (which face completely different issues).

Whilst I think that we need to keep our teams in super rugby, I would support an 8 team national club competition involving 14 rounds home and away plus semi-finals. Such competition running April to August or thereabouts. We probably don't have the funds at the moment, so it's probably only aspirational. To me, the whole structure needs to be adjusted so that each level is linked to the levels above and below.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Half,

While I am generally a super rugby supporter and have been so since it's inception. I agree with you to the extent that it doesn't provide what the game really needs in Australia at the moment. The expansion has made it worse. The reasons that I have come around to this are: home games are irregular and there aren't really enough of them to spark interest, away games (particularly in South Africa) are played at times when no one watches, we are subject to the needs of other nations (which face completely different issues).

Whilst I think that we need to keep our teams in super rugby, I would support an 8 team national club competition involving 14 rounds home and away plus semi-finals. Such competition running April to August or thereabouts. We probably don't have the funds at the moment, so it's probably only aspirational. To me, the whole structure needs to be adjusted so that each level is linked to the levels above and below.

I personally would like to see the now 8 team NRC go to a double round in the future. I think it could be done. The only issue is the window you suggest. The clubs would have a conniption fit.

 

[half]

The Times are a changing, some time back everyone throught I should be sent to the funny farm, today most seem to agree more or less we need sooner rather than latter a national domestic competition.

Waits for massive reaction to this as I have held this back as it means looking at doing something not so much new but different to now.

We need an 8 team national domestic competition for the next media deal.

Its not urgent today. Its beyond urgent in four years.

This is what we need to do, and God forgive me, but we need to copy Gallop and Buckley from FFA.

We cannot leave anybody out, the Shute teams, posters who believe in Super Rugby, park players, GPS schools everybody in rugby needs to have their voice heard and their views respected. This has never happen in the rush by Flower and Pulver to get their versions going .

My suggestion is we have 5 Super Rugby teams already, a Western Sydney team, a Hunter / Central Coast and a second Queensland side.

Why do we need to copy Gallop and Buckley [both FFA CEO's] is they spent 4 years talking to all levels of Football and managed what was deemed impossible they got the various and many soccer tribes to agree on both an FFA Cup and National Premier league with 100 teams across all states and two divisions.

This can only work if we involve the SS teams somehow in the new teams. It means the Galloping Greens and those nuts at Rat park working with Manly.

If we come together and have a leader that can provide a general model and have the skill to include everyone in the model it will work. Believe as a unified group we can achieve a lot. However all voices must be heard and respected and considered and involved in the model.

It took FFA all up between 4 & 6 years, we don't have that long but we have far fewer tribes.

The key is listening and involvement and a willingness to change the ARU model if needed and the skill to explain the final model and get all of rugby behind it.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^Manly and the Rats have no problem working together for the good of the game. Both have combined seamlessly with the Rays (as have Norths and Gordon)

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Here's an all too familiar story that is repeated far too often around our game. A report of a failed conversion to Heavens Game. From another thread.

My son played his last game of rugby yesterday. I have decided to pull him out as he hasn't been getting a fair go. I spoke with one of the other parents at training the other night about my concerns for my young bloke getting good game time and his answer was basically 'your young bloke isn't any good so why should the team suffer so he can have a run'. Anyway, the team had no reserves yesterday so I was happy he would finally get a full game to show that he was worth giving game time to, his coach approached the team below his during the game and was able to secure the services of two of their players and at half time he took my son off and decided to give him a run with 30 seconds remaining and the game well and truly won. As a parent I tried to get involved with the club and team and support the club through canteen, carrying tackle bags. When he was injured earlier in the year I made him go to each of the games when he couldn't play to carry water bottles and support his team mates. Seeing how this support was returned helped make up my decision. He seems happy with the decision, even though it means he has to spend more time studying when he used to be 'playing' (more like watching) rugby.

Dear Coaches,
Do you love winning so much that you need to drive kids off the game?

It is against the NSW Rugby Union Code of Conduct, and common decency.

The NSW RU Code of Conduct for coaches says this:

2. Give all participants a ‘fair go’, regardless of ability, gender, sexual orientation, cultural background or religion - condemning unsporting behaviour and promoting respect for all participants.

http://www.nswrugby.com.au/Portals/35/NSWRugby/documents/2015/Manual (v5).pdf

Can't find the exact ARU Code of Conduct for a coach, but the QRU say this:

4. Ensure that all players get a game. The 'just average' players need and deserve equal time.

http://www.southsjuniorrugby.com/resources/code-of-conduct/#Coach's Code
I think Sydney Juniors have a very similar expectation. Most sensible Unions say similar.

In NZL, they take it one step further where they introduced a regulation in 2014 that every player below School 1st XV level must play a minimum of 1/2 a game.

The Half Game rule enters its second season in 2015, and New Zealand Rugby is heartened by positive feedback throughout the pilot year.

The regulation was introduced off the back of some thorough research and review from 2012 which showed many youngsters who left the game did so because of lack of game time opportunities. New Zealand Rugby, after consultation, recommended that all players in grades below First XV get at least half a game. Effectively, if there is 22 in the squad and no injuries, this means there will be seven subs at the halftime break.

http://www.allblacks.com/News/26977/half-game-rule-key-to-keeping-teens-in-the-game

It doesn't take much to give a kid a fair go, and to keep him actively involved in the game does it?

Little things count. These little things require no investment of resources or commitment from the ARU and they make a huge difference to ongoing participation.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^^Any junor coach, in any sport who gives any of their players less than half a game minimum is in the wrong job. In a similar vein, subject to certain skills and body shapes required for certain positions, everyone should get roughly equal game time. (even if the team might lose the odd game in the process) Winning is actually secondary to teaching all the players the skills of the game- i.e. coaching the not so good ones to make them better, not just rely on the good kids winning the game.

It's a theme I've mentioned many times on various threads. Many of our better players aren't coached, they just happen to be naturally bigger and/or more skilful than their opponets (makes the "coach" look good though). In many cases there is no serious attempt to improve the weaker players.

 

[The torpedo]

QH & HJ, as I posted in the thread where Aussie D's original comment came from, players not getting a fair go is more prevalent in my experience in schools than clubs