Decline of Test match leaders

[Newter]

Watching the George Smith tribute video made me notice how many good senior men the Wallabies have lost in rapid succession over the last four years. Smith himself was a good one, but add these in for good measure: Mortlock and Palu MIA last year; Tuqiri and Vickerman gone in 09; Latham, Larkham and Gregan all in retirement in 08.
The men who've stepped up in their place are alright, but haven't been senior Wallabies for very long. Sharpe and Giteau are the only veterans in the squad. Elsom's been a senior figure for maybe two years? Moore ditto. Add Ashley-Cooper and maybe Benn Robinson and that's about it.

This is only notable because, while we've been leaking important figures almost every year since Robbie took over, the All Blacks have kept their senior players almost without casualty for about three years now.

I mean, 2008 was the last year they had to cover the loss of several key leading figures from the previous year. Since then the core leadership has been virtually unharmed. Mealamu, Thorn, Conrad Smith, Mils, Dan Carter, and Richie McCaw are each far more experienced Test match leaders than almost everyone we've got. They lost So'ioalo to the ravages of age, but Kieran Read stepped up very quickly to fill not just his No 8 jersey but also his leadership role with some precocious maturity.

Our best players are too young. They don't run the side. Genia, Pocock, Beale. They'll be awesome in two years definitely, and will run a terrific Wallabies team when they are the senior men, but this year?

Our best players used to be our veterans - George Smith a prime example.

It might be a year too late. Unless Mortlock and Vickerman make improbable comebacks...

 

[sudrugby]

Do you really want Mortlock to be back? I'm not sure it is the best option.
Palu will certainly be back if he stops being injured.
And I still don't understand why Waugh is not used as a back up for Pocock and Elsom.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

It's just part and parcel of a generational change in the team. We are a very young outfit at the moment, but those leaders will step up. All they require is time.

 

[Slim 293]

Do you really want Mortlock to be back? I'm not sure it is the best option.
Palu will certainly be back if he stops being injured.
And I still don't understand why Waugh is not used as a back up for Pocock and Elsom.

Because Waugh is a miserable primitive ****?

 

[farva]

Robinson, Elsom, Pocock, Genia, Moore, Elsom, Sharpe, Mitchell are all senior players and regulars and while not all of them are really experienced, they have a decent amount of experience. Genia is two seasons as a regular starter, ditto Pocock. The rest have more.

The Wallabies are young, but I think that there are enough leaders in the team to see us through. A leader doesn't have to be old, they need to be able to lead.

 

[disco]

Watching the George Smith tribute video made me notice how many good senior men the Wallabies have lost in rapid succession over the last four years. Smith himself was a good one, but add these in for good measure: Mortlock and Palu MIA last year; Tuqiri and Vickerman gone in 09; Latham, Larkham and Gregan all in retirement in 08.

Yeah but even with all that experience we still weren't winning any major trophies or even winning on the highveldt.

 

[Scotty]

If you are good enough you are old enough.

I have faith in the likes of Pocock, Genia and Horwill to be able to step up on leadership roles this year.

 

[ACSC]

The outstanding captains in my recent memery were John Eales and Martin Johnston. It's hard to really put your finger on what made them so great compared to other good captains such as Gregan, BO'D, Smit, Umanga or McCaw, except for the usual cliches such as inspirational. Will a few more years make a difference to the wallabies mentioned above in terms of leadership abilities? IMHO don't think so as you either that special quality or not, it can't be taught although some aspects such as communicating with refs, media can be developed. Pocock and Genia are the only 2 that I think may mature into true leaders. Let's hope they or one of the others does as I agree we are desparately lacking this at the moment.

 

[fatprop]

I think we all have all realised that Deans is better with coach-able younger players who he can develop and meld in the form he wants and struggles with senior players who have a developed brain and independent separate ideas.

Hence the "leaders" have been expunged

 

[sudrugby]

Because Waugh is a miserable primitive ****?

Send him to Racing Metro 92 next year! I'll be more than happy to have this primitive **** in my team

 

[Hawko]

Because Waugh is a miserable primitive ****?

Waugh is not well liked in Brumby land, I know but his leadership at the Tahs has been outstanding. He is still playing well enough to roll King Richie and people underestimate him now at their peril. Were he to go north he would be a bigger star than King George because his style of game more suits the NH weather. Sudrugby would not be alone in wanting Phil at Racing metro but first there's a Super title to be won.

 

[Bullrush]

Genia was average at best the whole 2010 International Season. He's had one strong season in 2009 and an average one last year....not sure why he would be considered a 'leader' yet.

Robbie Deans seems to have a way with the senior players in teams that he hasn't brought up through the ranks himself. I'm sure Tana Umaga and Christian Cullen have a few stories in that regard.

 

[Bullrush]

Do you really want Mortlock to be back? I'm not sure it is the best option.
Palu will certainly be back if he stops being injured.And I still don't understand why Waugh is not used as a back up for Pocock and Elsom.

Palu?? Really?? Here are his G&GR rating against NZ and SA in the last 2-3 years:

30/06/2007 vs New Zealand: Another casualty (and it seems to be literally) is Palu. He hasn’t re-found his rampaging form against an understrength Wales and was anonymous until replaced at the break - No Rating

19/07/2008 vs South Africa: On second view Cliffy made a hell of a lot of hard yards while protecting the ball at the back - Rating: 6

26/07/2008 vs New Zealand: What a time to step up to the plate. Finally showed us in a crunch match what he’d been doing all year for NSW. Bulldozed through their gain line in the toughest of situations, most notably setting up Horwills try. Also loving the solid link with Burgess of the base - Rating: 8

02/08/2008 vs New Zealand: found it a lot harder to make any yards this week. A couple of decent runs and tackles though - Rating:5

30/08/2008 vs South Africa: Grafted away but looked like he’d already played two games that day - Rating: 4

13/09/2008 vs New Zealand: Was trying to do the right thing when bungled a certain try, and then threw the ball to no-one from a tight head scrum immediately afterwards - Rating: 3

18/07/2009 vs New Zealand: In horse racing terms you would probably say it was a reasonable first up gallop however he was short of his best and didn’t have the impact that was required - Rating: 5

There were a couple of games with no comments or ratings so maybe he played blinders in those games but off just these ratings, Palu averages 5.1 against SH teams.

But he seems to have blinders against Wales, England, Fiji and Japan.

I just wonder if Palu is remembered more for those games than against NZ and SA.

 

[Thomas]

He's had one strong season in 2009 and an average one last year....not sure why he would be considered a 'leader' yet.

What does performance have to do with leadership? A leader doesn't have to have a stand out season to be able to lead a team well. Genia lead the Reds to 5th place and you said he didn't have a strong season so I didn't know how you think performance and leadership are connected.

 

[Bullrush]

What does performance have to do with leadership? A leader doesn't have to have a stand out season to be able to lead a team well. Genia lead the Reds to 5th place and you said he didn't have a strong season so I didn't know how you think performance and leadership are connected.

5th place....wow. Do you get a certificate for 5th place??

I said that Genia had an average international season because I thought we were discussing the decline of "Test match leaders."

Do I even bother addressing what performance has to do with leadership? Hmmmmm......nah.

 

[Groucho]

If you are good enough you are old enough.

I have faith in the likes of Pocock, Genia and Horwill to be able to step up on leadership roles this year.

Pocock is a very good leader already. He does more of the interpersonal part of captaining than Rocky.

Nau is also a very good leader although he will be fighting with Moore for a spot - no bad thing.

 

[Reddy!]

Wow I think this whole thread is incredibly misinformed.

First off - Gregan, Latham, Larkham, Tuquiri, Smith, Mortlock etc all made their names as young players winning the big tournaments such as a the World Cup, Tri-Nations and Bledisloe. Are you saying they weren't leaders within the team during those periods? While they were at the experienced end of their careers with the Wallabies, all earmarked as leaders, the Wallabies team didn't do so well. Correct? So therefore I don't really see too much difference between the Wallabies of 1998-2002 with the Wallaby team 2010 - present. More opportunities will present itself in 2011 for leadership to be shown.

Secondly - What qualifies a leader? Age, test caps, performance? Are you saying that James O'Connor isn't a leader of the team because he is only 20, despite having over 25 test caps and playing brilliantly most games, winning games off his own boot? Is Quade Cooper not the undisputed attacking backline leader of the world? Oh wait he is only 22 with 20 odd test caps, he can't possibly be a leader of this Wallabies team *sarcasm*. Like Scotty said, if you are good enough you are old enough. I honestly don't see the difference between our players and Kieran Read who the OP sighted as a leader. What, because he plays for the successful All Blacks?

Thirdly - if you had been listening to the dribble coming out of Dean's mouth over the past 2 years, you would know that he expects all players picked for the Wallabies to be leaders within the team.

Good leadership is all about TEAM success on and off the field - probably off field is far more important. Let's wait to see how 2011 unfolds, now that we are finally here, before saying there are no leaders in the Wallabies.

 

[Bullrush]

What qualifies a leader? Age, test caps, performance?

Yes, yes and yes.

Are you saying that James O'Connor isn't a leader of the team because he is only 20, despite having over 25 test caps and playing brilliantly most games, winning games off his own boot?

Debateable...and yes.

Is Quade Cooper not the undisputed attacking backline leader of the world?

Bollocks...and no, he is not.

Oh wait he is only 22 with 20 odd test caps, he can't possibly be a leader of this Wallabies team

Correct. Not to mention he can't tackle for shit.

You're kidding yourself is you don't think that age and experience are big factors in leadership.

Have you ever seen a player debut as a captain of the team? Have you ever played in any teams or worked in environments where the 'Star Player' would be the last choice to lead? Or have you ever seen the worst performer ever lead the team?

 

[Scotty]

Bullrush,

Generally it takes some experience (which comes with age) to become a good leader. We are learning all the time.

However there are certainly exceptions to the age rule. Guys that are used to leading and are natural leaders (eg Pocock) can be good leaders even when they are young.

McCaw captained the Saders when he was something like 23/24. He captained the ABs first at 25. Are you saying he very good because he was still relatively young?

Daniel Carter has always been the leader of the backs for the ABs (even with Umaga in the team). He was something like 21 when he started, and probably a leader within that team from the next year. Was he too young?

 

[DPK]

Have you ever seen a player debut as a captain of the team? Of course not, that is a hyperbolisation of Reddy!'s argument.

Have you ever played in any teams or worked in environments where the 'Star Player' would be the last choice to lead? Yes.

Or have you ever seen the worst performer ever lead the team? John Smit? Ricky Ponting?

Furthermore, I'd say that Dave Pocock is definitely a leader in the Wallabies team but going by your classification system he wouldn't qualify.