Decline of Test match leaders

[Bullrush]

However there are certainly exceptions to the age rule. Guys that are used to leading and are natural leaders (eg Pocock) can be good leaders even when they are young.

No doubt. I wasn't trying to give a definitive list of qualities that equate to leadership. You'd have to admit though that players of the Pocock standard are in rare supply (ouch).

McCaw captained the Saders when he was something like 23/24. He captained the ABs first at 25. Are you saying he very good because he was still relatively young?

Again, we're talking about Test match leaders - not Super rugby. And most people would probably agree that McCaw's captaincy and leadership has improved a lot since 2007 - as he's gotten older and gained more experience.

Daniel Carter has always been the leader of the backs for the ABs (even with Umaga in the team).

There was some guy named Mehrtens around when Carter started. And when it came to the pressure decisions etc - Umaga would have made the call. No doubt with Carter's input at times.

Have you ever seen a player debut as a captain of the team? Of course not, that is a hyperbolisation of Reddy!'s argument.

Of course it is. But it still makes my point that experience is a key consideration in leadership. Even for the greatest players/leaders.

Have you ever played in any teams or worked in environments where the 'Star Player' would be the last choice to lead? Yes.[/QUOTE]

My point exactly. The best players don't always make the best leaders.

Furthermore, I'd say that Dave Pocock is definitely a leader in the Wallabies team but going by your classification system he wouldn't qualify.

I wasn't clear enough - my mistake. I wasn't trying to create a 'classification system' but point to key attributes you look at when considering someone for leadership responsibility.

Last time I'll say it - Pocock is a freak.

 

[Reddy!]

First off - RE: Cooper. John Smit can't scrummage for shit, doesn't mean he isn't the undisputed trench warfare rugby leader of the world...

You're kidding yourself is you don't think that age and experience are big factors in leadership.

See the thing is, this Wallabies team is a pretty dang young team overall. Therefore I think this team has the capacity to have leaders in it that are not on the other side of 30 or even 27 for that matter. Pocock, Mumm, Horwill, Moore, Robinson, Genia, Cooper, Barnes, Beale.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Just to play devil's advocate, didn Francois Piennaar debut as captain of the Springboks?

 

[Bullrush]

First off - RE: Cooper. John Smit can't scrummage for shit, doesn't mean he isn't the undisputed trench warfare rugby leader of the world...

Please don't tell me you are seriously trying to put John Smit in the same category as Quade Cooper in regards to leadership!?!?!

Smit has more Test Caps than any other Springbok forward in history and his leadership qualities are often cited as a key to the Sprinboks recent successes - most notably the 2007 RWC. He may not be SA best scrummager but he has obviously been one of the best in the last 10 years and total package he brings to the team is considered more valuable than just that one ability.

The problem with being such a poor tackler and defender as Cooper is that defense and tackling is more about desire and attitude. If one is seen to be lacking in attitude and desire - how can they lead??

See the thing is, this Wallabies team is a pretty dang young team overall. Therefore I think this team has the capacity to have leaders in it that are not on the other side of 30 or even 27 for that matter

When you have such a young team, someone will have to lead who will be young no doubt. Whether they will be good leaders is the question and without age and experience, it's hard to say. Not impossible by any means but hard.

I've already given my thoughts on Genia and Cooper....but Mumm....ROFLMAO

Just to play devil's advocate, didn Francois Piennaar debut as captain of the Springboks?

Yes he did. He captained Transvaal in 1993 and won the Super 10, Currie Cup and Lion Cup and was made captain of the Springboks from his first game. Of course, the Sprinboks had only just returned to the international stage in 1992 so it was always going to be hard to pick someone with Test experience.

 

[Ruggo]

Cooper does lead very well. He does not lead in the follow me trench warfare sense but more in a HR sense. He is a very good communicator and always has his backs in position, knows when he wants the ball and communicates this very well with his scrum half. This organisation can be attributed to some of the great backline play in the Reds and Wallabies. He will never be captain material but to say he does not lead is just not true.

Looking towards the future, the most suitable leader would be Horwill or Pocock with a couple more years under his belt. I thought Mooney was crazy for making this young sometimes hot head lock captain of the Reds but he was on the money. I rate horwill as a fine leader.

It is time for a changing of the guard with our leaders in Super Rugby. It is time for Waugh and Sharpe to be handing over to Mumm and Pocock respectivly. The old fellas will still have their wisdom to offer in the group but the next leaders need to step up and take control. The time is right for them.

 

[Bullrush]

Cooper does lead very well. He does not lead in the follow me trench warfare sense but more in a HR sense. He is a very good communicator and always has his backs in position, knows when he wants the ball and communicates this very well with his scrum half. This organisation can be attributed to some of the great backline play in the Reds and Wallabies. He will never be captain material but to say he does not lead is just not true.

His position demands that he communicates well with the half-back and his back-line. To me, that doesn't make him a leader. A good 1st-five perhaps but not a good leader. But maybe we are talking about different kinds of leadership.

The defense is a big one because again, tacking says a lot about attitude and desire. This is where players often get a lot of respect from their teammates and peers - the way they apply themselves defensively.

IMO (and it is just my opinion) Cooper has yet to prove that he can consistently take charge of the big games and be 'the man' so to speak. His push in the back of McCaw's head in Hong Kong and his burgalry shinannigans still speak to me of someone who needs time to prove himself as a leader on and off the field.

 

[Newter]

Cooper does lead very well. He does not lead in the follow me trench warfare sense but more in a HR sense. He is a very good communicator and always has his backs in position, knows when he wants the ball and communicates this very well with his scrum half. This organisation can be attributed to some of the great backline play in the Reds and Wallabies. He will never be captain material but to say he does not lead is just not true.

Looking towards the future, the most suitable leader would be Horwill or Pocock with a couple more years under his belt. I thought Mooney was crazy for making this young sometimes hot head lock captain of the Reds but he was on the money. I rate horwill as a fine leader.

It is time for a changing of the guard with our leaders in Super Rugby. It is time for Waugh and Sharpe to be handing over to Mumm and Pocock respectivly. The old fellas will still have their wisdom to offer in the group but the next leaders need to step up and take control. The time is right for them.

I agree that Quade takes a lot of responsibility for what the backline does on each play. And in a year or two - if he's still on an ARU contract - he'll be another very strong Test leader for the Wallabies.

But right now, he's not the finished product. He does great stuff 80% of the time but lets the team down with basic errors, kicking out on the full or missing a tackle. I think this is a maturity issue, because he has the ability to be rock solid one day.

 

[Hawko]

It is time for a changing of the guard with our leaders in Super Rugby. It is time for Waugh and Sharpe to be handing over to Mumm and Pocock respectivly. The old fellas will still have their wisdom to offer in the group but the next leaders need to step up and take control. The time is right for them.

I know Mumm captains and leads well, but unless he steps up a gear he is in danger of being third choice selection at lock and we have so many 6's its hard to see him being first choice there. Captains have to be assured of a spot first, and I don't think Mumm's form guarantees him a first fifteen spot.

 

[Newter]

Wow I think this whole thread is incredibly misinformed.

First off - Gregan, Latham, Larkham, Tuquiri, Smith, Mortlock etc all made their names as young players winning the big tournaments such as a the World Cup, Tri-Nations and Bledisloe. Are you saying they weren't leaders within the team during those periods? While they were at the experienced end of their careers with the Wallabies, all earmarked as leaders, the Wallabies team didn't do so well. Correct? So therefore I don't really see too much difference between the Wallabies of 1998-2002 with the Wallaby team 2010 - present. More opportunities will present itself in 2011 for leadership to be shown.

Secondly - What qualifies a leader? Age, test caps, performance? Are you saying that James O'Connor isn't a leader of the team because he is only 20, despite having over 25 test caps and playing brilliantly most games, winning games off his own boot? Is Quade Cooper not the undisputed attacking backline leader of the world? Oh wait he is only 22 with 20 odd test caps, he can't possibly be a leader of this Wallabies team *sarcasm*. Like Scotty said, if you are good enough you are old enough. I honestly don't see the difference between our players and Kieran Read who the OP sighted as a leader. What, because he plays for the successful All Blacks?

Thirdly - if you had been listening to the dribble coming out of Dean's mouth over the past 2 years, you would know that he expects all players picked for the Wallabies to be leaders within the team.

Good leadership is all about TEAM success on and off the field - probably off field is far more important. Let's wait to see how 2011 unfolds, now that we are finally here, before saying there are no leaders in the Wallabies.

It's not that hard to point out a leader when you see one. Bit harder to define it. But where I would say John Eales and Tim Horan were leaders in 1999, I would not say James O'Connor and Quade Cooper have been in 2010. The difference is that Eales would win a lineout against the throw or make a cover tackle right when it was most needed, and never drop the ball or go missing in defence. Quade and O'Connor frequently miss basic tackles, and while they occasionally break the line right when it's needed, they don't do it quite as often as they will in a year or two.

It doesn't matter what Robbie dribbles or expects, we don't really have the top end Test leaders we once did.

You mention the 1999 World Cup Wallabies. The young stars of that side were surrounded by toughened old men who made their brilliance as effective as it was. In 1999, the following guys had been senior Wallabies for three years or more:

John Eales - debuted in 1991
Tim Horan - debuted in 1989
Phil Kearns - debuted in 1989
Matt Burke - debuted in 1993
George Gregan - debuted in 1994
Dan Herbert - debuted in 1994
David Wilson - debuted in 1992

That's seven players in the team who were Test match veterans by the time of the 1999 World Cup. Most of them had been Wallabies for seven years or more.
But crucially, the team's two most valuable players, Eales and Horan were also their most experienced veterans. They weren't just old, they led the way with their performance.

You can't say the same of the 2011 Wallabies. Sure, we have a collection of moderately experienced players. The senior group has a rough average of six years' experience in the team. But our match winners aren't on this list:

Rocky Elsom - debuted in 2005
Nathan Sharpe - debuted in 2002
Matt Giteau - debuted in 2002
Benn Robinson - debuted in 2006
Stephen Moore - debuted in 2005
Wycliff Palu - debuted in 2006
Adam Ashley-Cooper - debuted in 2005
Drew Mitchell - debuted in 2005

There is a chance that Pocock, Genia and Beale will assume more prominent leadership roles within their Super 15 teams and go on to boss the Wallabies to a World Cup victory. But usually that control of the team falls to more senior figures, which these young guys are not this year.

 

[Ruggo]

I know Mumm captains and leads well, but unless he steps up a gear he is in danger of being third choice selection at lock and we have so many 6's its hard to see him being first choice there. Captains have to be assured of a spot first, and I don't think Mumm's form guarantees him a first fifteen spot.

That's a fair point. I just think it is time for Waugh's successor to step in. TPN would make a great captain for the Tahs.

 

[Newter]

That's a fair point. I just think it is time for Waugh's successor to step in. TPN would make a great captain for the Tahs.

Benn Robinson. Mumm just talks a lot, he's not the answer. TPN hasn't mastered his role yet, by which I mean lineout throws.

 

[Reddy!]

I've already given my thoughts on Genia and Cooper....but Mumm....ROFLMAO

Yeh I guess captaining your state and having the respect of all coaches and players within the squad must mean you have no leadership qualities. Sorry mate I apolygise for suggesting that Robbie Deans probably keeps selecting Dean Mumm for these reasons.

 

[Reddy!]

Also back on James O'Connor and if he has any leadership qualities. Seriously, did you not watch the Super 14 last year? O'Connor carried the force single handedly all season, everyone turned to him everytime the Force had possession for the answer, even Nathan Sharpe. This is another reason why Deans selects O'Connor out of position on the wing for the Wallabies.

Come on, it's so hard to argue the leadership case. I think everyone is expecting the Wallaby leadership group to pull a RWC out of their arse for fun, because that's what good leaders are suppose to do.

 

[Bullrush]

Yeh I guess captaining your state and having the respect of all coaches and players within the squad must mean you have no leadership qualities. Sorry mate I apolygise for suggesting that Robbie Deans probably keeps selecting Dean Mumm for these reasons.

Well it can't be for his amazing playing....LMAO

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I don't think age or experience is necessarily a barrier for leadership. Some blokes just have that aura (or mana, as our Kiwi cousins might put it) and it doesn't matter whether they are 20 or 35 in rugby terms. I would posit that Mr Pocock has leadership written all over him. I would also argue that Genia, TPN and Horwill have it too. Add it to the leadership qualities of the older guys like Sharpe and Elsom and things don't look so bad. What's important with leadership in rugby is being able to be in the front line when things get tough, be dependable and have some intellect. Other players rally around blokes who have those qualities.

For captaincy or official leadership positions, the equation is slightly different. Your captain should be someone whose position in the team is absolutely unquestioned. First name on the sheet and all that. Additionally, they should show the above leadership qualities. The same goes for the pack leader and/or play calling in the backs. Without that, you're just giving the job to your best player(s), which often backfires badly. Some blokes need to be free to play their game without the burden of official leadership.

 

[Thomas]

The problem with being such a poor tackler and defender as Cooper is that defense and tackling is more about desire and attitude. If one is seen to be lacking in attitude and desire - how can they lead??

He has publicly stated that he wants the forwards to run at him in training so he does have the desire to tackle well and is trying to improve.

 

[DPK]

Last time I'll say it - Pocock is a freak.

Lovely detente; absolutely agree. Normal career paths and skill sets are irrelevant when analysing Pocock.

 

[I like to watch]

He has publicly stated that he wants the forwards to run at him in training so he does have the desire to tackle well and is trying to improve.

Sounds great, it's encouraging he is making the right noises.
I will give him the benefit of the doubt until he has another heartlidge.

 

[Newter]

I don't think age or experience is necessarily a barrier for leadership. Some blokes just have that aura (or mana, as our Kiwi cousins might put it) and it doesn't matter whether they are 20 or 35 in rugby terms. I would posit that Mr Pocock has leadership written all over him. I would also argue that Genia, TPN and Horwill have it too. Add it to the leadership qualities of the older guys like Sharpe and Elsom and things don't look so bad. What's important with leadership in rugby is being able to be in the front line when things get tough, be dependable and have some intellect. Other players rally around blokes who have those qualities.

It's hard to argue with the field evidence. Name me a World Cup champion team that wasn't stacked with old heads. The Boks in 2007? England 2003?

Pocock may already be a good leader, but other teams have better.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Your point is well made Newter and we are a team lacking in experience right now, but I feel oddly calm about the situation at the moment. I can't quite put my finger on why, but I feel that there are some good leaders at least in the making out there on the paddock.