Deans confirmed until 2013

[Athilnaur]

... Even if we win, I want him gone.

Harsh call Chief!

For myself a finals appearance is vindication, a win is exceeds expectation for us. A loss in quarter finals, is that a career ender? Really? Henry went on to run the most successful AB team in history after 2007. McCaw was the Captain. Should he have been canned too? The guy is the most successful AB Test Captain of all time. And I'd wager he'd happily erase half of those wins if he had a RWC win.

RWC is the ultimate prize. The Kiwis must burn whenever they see this:

 

[waratahjesus]

For the new zealanders on this board, do you rate deans and wish he was coaching the all blacks right now or do you think Henry was the better choice?

 

[H...]

Look at the Cru - kick poles every time in that position, regardless of oppo. You want to win the game, or entertain?

The point exactly is that at the beginning of the game you DON'T know what's gonna happen, so you take the smartest move - the points on offer. Keep the scoreboard ticking over, like a clever batsman takes 1s and 2s.

Take advantage of sitting in their half by taking the points - don't let them sit there unscathed through good D, waiting for a breakaway try. Make them chase the game and make mistakes.

A few boos from the crowd at the beginning - who cares? You get the scoreboard wearing them down and applying pressure to them mentally, not you. Then you can pile on the tries later in the match.

TBH - I think this is top flight footy 101, but we Aussies don't seem to get it. Seem to think we're playing in the HK sevens the whole time or making up for the underarm bowling incident or something....

PS - The Mud Isle is pommyland

Also helps to have a kicker that isn't a complete coin toss every time he lines one up.

 

[chief]

Chief, I'd be interested to hear your arguments as to why you'd like Deans gone, even if we win the RWC. You're normally a very rational fair minded guy, so I'm surprised to read such a passionate stance. I'm not being being a smart arse, I'm genuinely interested.

I've always said, time after time that there needs to be a review of Robbie Deans as the National coach. I said that in 2009. I go hard on this issue because I passionately believe that Robbie Deans has failed as a coach. To look at his record, I believe with the poor success rate he has where we haven't had much success over the Springboks and an embarrassing 10 losses in a row against the All Blacks is unacceptable. His record includes a loss to Samoa where he handed out test caps to people who quite simply didn't cut the mustard. I don't believe at all, that any coach should base everything they do on optimism which is essentially what Deans has done. He claims to be playing the long term game without any short term successes. There is every chance, more likely than not that Deans won't even achieve these successes.

This so called "Long term game" won't work if you don't have an Inside Centre who deserves to be playing there. We saw last year a weakness in the position, and we saw a possible fix in Berrick Barnes. I maintain Barnes wasn't the full time answer; O'Connor was/is and yet he (Deans) has completely rejected the idea of JOC (James O'Connor) playing there. I now move to Giteau playing Flyhalf on the weekend, it doesn't take a genius to work out Giteau can't play Flyhalf. You don't throw a player at Flyhalf who has spent the better part of the last three years proving to us that he can't play 10. Deans should have looked to a backup at 10. Say Kurtley Beale so in case Quade Cooper got injured we would have a credible 10 because as we have seen time and time again from Matt Giteau are simply a lot of chances to prove he is a 10 but a penetrating glimpse of the obvious that he is indeed not a Flyhalf. For Deans not to get that by now is quite simply mesmerizing. It is a breathtaking display of arrogance laced with optimism that Deans continues time after time to trial him there. To be frank, it's stupid.

I then move to how Deans uses the bench. He doesn't. Time and time again each week, player's are not performing and he must have the grand view that they will pull a rabbit out of the hat and turn the game around yet there are perfectly good players on the bench. Yet he waits, and waits, and waits for that grand performance from those players. Time after time it doesn't come.

That's my rationale, and to me this is no way to run a National Rugby team.

 

[Athilnaur]

That's my rationale, and to me this is no way to run a National Rugby team.

fair enough, and that's a well put rationale. That said we have had a few break throughs with the dark days, and done it with a young team.

Like you I am not happy about IC, it is one of our bigger headaches IMO. We all have controversial views that's the fun of this board! for me the controversial view is believing we have screwed up not putting Tom Carter into the squad. I'm not sold on James O'Connor at IC, but you would have to be brain dead not to see how much potential he brings. IMO the selector problem is Giteau. I think Deans was trying to do the right thing by him because we want a playmaker back up to QC (Quade Cooper). That opportunity backfired badly on Sunday.

 

[Red Rooster]

OK, so let's look at those candidates:

Alan Jones -- don't make me laugh AJ, you were never serious. Hadn't coached for 20 years and had a player mutiny at RWC 1987
Nucifora -- two separate player mutinies at different franchises. Next....
Link -- was he even in the frame? I don't recall him applying.
Muggleton -- a possible, but all we know about him was that he was a great defence coach. No other head coaching experience.
Johnson -- the only credible candidate in my view and the bloke I wanted to get the job.

I am aware of how Deans got the job and I did also say that I disagreed with it. Overall, looking at all the candidates, I still think he was the best of the lot. That is, making the assumption that Link wasn't in the frame. But let's not also forget that Link was let go by the Tahs and then by Stade.

Mate I remember seeing Link interviewed outside the ARU office on TV after the interviews - this was before NSW did not renew his contract (thats really looking like a good decision) or he even went to Stade - you cant argue hindsight when those things had not even happened. In fact post interview the Tahs went to the final in 2008 v Crusaders and just lost scoring two trie to one in Christchurch that would be part of the hindsight

 

[Richo]

Link might not be the Link he is now without his experience at NSW -- getting the boot teaching him he had to have a unifies organization behind him -- and Stade. Just saying.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I've always said, time after time that there needs to be a review of Robbie Deans as the National coach. I said that in 2009. I go hard on this issue because I passionately believe that Robbie Deans has failed as a coach. To look at his record, I believe with the poor success rate he has where we haven't had much success over the Springboks and an embarrassing 10 losses in a row against the All Blacks is unacceptable. His record includes a loss to Samoa where he handed out test caps to people who quite simply didn't cut the mustard. I don't believe at all, that any coach should base everything they do on optimism which is essentially what Deans has done. He claims to be playing the long term game without any short term successes. There is every chance, more likely than not that Deans won't even achieve these successes.

This so called "Long term game" won't work if you don't have an Inside Centre who deserves to be playing there. We saw last year a weakness in the position, and we saw a possible fix in Berrick Barnes. I maintain Barnes wasn't the full time answer; O'Connor was/is and yet he (Deans) has completely rejected the idea of JOC (James O'Connor) playing there. I now move to Giteau playing Flyhalf on the weekend, it doesn't take a genius to work out Giteau can't play Flyhalf. You don't throw a player at Flyhalf who has spent the better part of the last three years proving to us that he can't play 10. Deans should have looked to a backup at 10. Say Kurtley Beale so in case Quade Cooper got injured we would have a credible 10 because as we have seen time and time again from Matt Giteau are simply a lot of chances to prove he is a 10 but a penetrating glimpse of the obvious that he is indeed not a Flyhalf. For Deans not to get that by now is quite simply mesmerizing. It is a breathtaking display of arrogance laced with optimism that Deans continues time after time to trial him there. To be frank, it's stupid.

I then move to how Deans uses the bench. He doesn't. Time and time again each week, player's are not performing and he must have the grand view that they will pull a rabbit out of the hat and turn the game around yet there are perfectly good players on the bench. Yet he waits, and waits, and waits for that grand performance from those players. Time after time it doesn't come.

That's my rationale, and to me this is no way to run a National Rugby team.

That's fair and I can understand why you think that way. I don't totally agree, mind you, but you've at least put an argument forward.

I was, as I stated earlier, not entirely happy about how Deans got the job, but was prepared to set that aside due to his coaching record. I was also prepared to cop some poor results because he was introducing a generational change into the squad, rather like Bob Dwyer had to after the Lions series in 1989. I figured that longer term gain was worth the worth the pain then. I have to admit to wavering in the last 12 months, as I don't feel the results have borne fruit to the extent they should have yet.

As far as inside centre goes, you'll know that I believe Barnes to be the best option there, with JOC (James O'Connor) the longer term answer. With Berrick being crocked, I now feel that we should put JOC (James O'Connor) there and stop stuffing about with any other option.

Backup at 10 I believe to be a much bigger problem, given that we now know that Gits is not good enough in that position. KB (Kurtley Beale) is really the only other player who can play there with any credibility, but we need him at fullback.

Your point about the bench is well made and I agree with it.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Mate I remember seeing Link interviewed outside the ARU office on TV after the interviews - this was before NSW did not renew his contract (thats really looking like a good decision) or he even went to Stade - you cant argue hindsight when those things had not even happened. In fact post interview the Tahs went to the final in 2008 v Crusaders and just lost scoring two trie to one in Christchurch that would be part of the hindsight

You are correct and I acknowledge that. I went back through the news archives and he did indeed apply for the job. With the benefit of hindsight, he might have been the best candidate, but compare the two coaches as of late 2007 and who had the more attractive record? If you were choosing now, you'd go with Link every time, but Deans was the stand out candidate at that time.

 

[fatprop]

Deans is a great coach and was the clear best candidate

My only concern with his approach, as he is making Aus play All Blacks\Crusaders light - focus on athleticism and accuracy, but not enough competition at the breakdown and too much pass the parcel in the backs - but that is what we should expect from him.

Whether Link would have been any better, who knows, I think he will be better for his failures/lessons and will be a great next Wallaby coach

 

[louie]

here here fat prop

 

[Bon]

For the new zealanders on this board, do you rate deans and wish he was coaching the all blacks right now or do you think Henry was the better choice?

I'm one of those one eyed Cantabrians. Yet when Deans was passed over for Henry I wasn't too disappointed. The rugby culture in Christchurch has in the past produced many top drawer players and continues to do so post Deans. He inherited a good team and did very well with them but the culture remains and both the Crusaders and Canterbury continue to roll on regardless.
To answer your question, no I was happy at the time of Henry's appointment as were many others from Canterbury,and I'm still comfortable with that choice.

 

[terry j]

maybe it was all a secret plan from the kiwis?

Pretend to be upset that deans came over..

pretend that he was in iine for the job over there..

all the while, it was a deliberate plan hatched between them all to get deans over here so the kiwis could win another cup hahaha

Heck, even if it is not true, we can start the rumour, push it hard, watch it gain momentum and have our OWN excuse if we fail at the RWC!

 

[jay-c]

without deans would we have seen the pococks, genias coopers, beales, oconners emerge? i doubt so soon
any other coach would have played it safe and held onto mortlock waugh baxter etc
what i see happening at wallaby level is what has happened at the reds. young players thrown in the deep end and after a few years of finding their feet they begin to beat then dominate all before them. the young wallabies are starting to play with a pace and skill level no team can match.
i think it was the second game against south africa last year-that first half performance was prolly up there with one of the best performances you will ever see in the gold. that is the direction this team is going.
it was important for many of the players to get a run last weekend as deans has learnt some important lessons as to who can cut it at this level and id rather him learn now than when the bledisloe or wc is on the line.
link is a fantastic coach now and he must be congratulated on how he has developed the reds team but when he was interviewed for the australian job he was not the best man for the job. his coaching and his team had been made to look amateur vs the crusaders in their finals appearances in the years before and he was thoroughly out coached by deans.
many people have short term memories and seem to forget many of his perplexing and frustrating decisions at the tahs> as a passionate tah supporter i was happy with the decision to let him go then equally i am happy at the decision made at the time now.
of course id take the 2010/2011 version mckenzie and happily eat my hat with a side of humble pie.
but i think the best thing for australian rugby now is for deans to remain at the wallabies and mckenzie to take the reds to a few more titles
plus with the shit deans has put up with by unsupporting fans he deserves to see the fruits of his labour

 

[Bullrush]

For the new zealanders on this board, do you rate deans and wish he was coaching the all blacks right now or do you think Henry was the better choice?

I, for one, was very happy with the re-appointment of Henry over Deans at the time for a couple of reasons.

1. I felt Henry (and the rest of ABs/NZ) was a bit robbed at the RWC. He may not have got everything right in his preperation eg. R&R etc BUT I still believe that the ABs didn't deserve to lose that quarter final. Wayne Barnes had an absolute shocker that day (as did the touchies on THAT forward pass) BUT it's in the book as they say.

2. Henry got slammed for his R&R policies BUT if you look at what he was trying to do, I think he was right. He may not have implemented the approach correctly but the question of player burn-out and 'too much rugby' is still being asked and wrestled with today - just ask the Boks.

3. As much as some kiwis (and especially some Cantabs) said that Robbie Deans deserved a shot, I felt he had had a pretty good go in 2003 with Mitchell. Reading what Cullen and Umaga had to say about that coaching set-up and the role Deans played in it, I don't think it's unfair to say he'd had a go. His persistence with a guy like Caleb Ralph pissed me off. (Remind you guys of anyone??) Roger Randle and Bruce Reihana deserved a shot before Ralph did but they didn't play for Canterbury.

4. The players backed Henry. I don't know how much of that was just covering their own ass but at a time when a lot of public opinion was against Henry, staunch Cantab players stood by Henry and said they hoped he would get the nod.

5. Why sack a coach when it's possible that his last defeat at the RWC may have taught him exactly what he needs to do to win it - and the balls to do it.

The Cullen and Umaga comments were probably the biggest thing that made me glad Deans missed the AB job.

Deans is a great coach and was the clear best candidate

My only concern with his approach, as he is making Aus play All Blacks\Crusaders light - focus on athleticism and accuracy, but not enough competition at the breakdown and too much pass the parcel in the backs - but that is what we should expect from him.

Whether Link would have been any better, who knows, I think he will be better for his failures/lessons and will be a great next Wallaby coach

Funny - I remember Robbie's Crusader teams actually being great at the breakdown and just wearing oppositions down with repeat phases and bulk possession. Not unlike the championship Brumby teams.

 

[fatprop]

bullrush

the saders have always fanned out until they see an opportunity, then attacked.

The Aus side seems to see less opportunities to counter ruck

 

[mark_s]

5. Why sack a coach when it's possible that his last defeat at the RWC may have taught him exactly what he needs to do to win it - and the balls to do it.

This is why I think the blacks will win the RWC this year. Henry will know that he only has to do a few small things differently to win, another coach would probablly have started again which would have sent the all balcks backwards before they started going forwards again.

 

[Bullrush]

bullrush

the saders have always fanned out until they see an opportunity, then attacked.

The Aus side seems to see less opportunities to counter ruck

Sorry, I was thinking about their attack but you're probably right on their defense.....

 

[Bruce Ross]

I have a totally different perspective on the Deans issue to most people.

Robbie Deans was appointed after the Wallabies had been blown off the ball in the 2007 World Cup. He came to us from a New Zealand franchise that was not only extremely successful but was renowned for the physicality of its players. I have learnt not to trust my declining memory but I seem to recall that the Crusader backs whom he coached tended to be fairly large humans.

Over the past three years it has become apparent that Deans has a decided preference for small, young and elusive backs. This is at odds with a very decided current tendency to favour much larger players, particularly in midfield. The 100+kg inside centre has virtually become the norm in international rugby while our national coach seems to hark back nostalgically to the Kiwi tradition of the Second Five.

We Australians tend to have a naive and rather touching tendency to assume that wisdom accompanies authority, and in particular that people who are paid large incomes are necessarily wiser than those who are paid little. Thus when a CEO who is paid much more than his predecessor appoints a coach and pays him much more than his predecessor we are greatly reassured. The best has appointed the best.

The theory of cognitive dissonance seems relevant to the current situation; cognitive dissonance being the mental conflict that people experience when presented with evidence that their beliefs or assumptions are wrong. One way of coping is to focus on those facts that reinforce our beliefs while ignoring those which challenge them. Thus what is imprinted in folk memory is our last gasp victory over the All Blacks in Hong Kong; what is ignored is our previous nine straight losses to them. What is celebrated is the fact that the Wallabies ran in scintillating tries in the second half of the most recent Test against France; what is ignored is our humiliating loss to England two weeks earlier. Bizarrely, the Queensland Reds' victory in the Super 15 is being trumpeted as evidence that all is well with Australian rugby; what is ignored is the fact that three of our franchises finished the race tailed off and limping over the line.

I have previously drawn attention to the fact that after our initial win of the Deans era against the All Blacks not only did we have nine straight losses to them but significantly in each of those losses we were outpointed in the second half. I speculated that an important contributing factor was very likely inadequate physical conditioning. It is noteworthy that in three recent losses - twice against England and against Samoa - we were comprehensively beaten at the breakdown, to me indicating not a lack of will but rather deficencies in physical contestability.

While at the Crusaders Deans had the services of Ashley Jones as his strength and conditioning coach. Jones not only prescribes heavy work in the gym but also has his players doing a lot of strong man type outdoor exercises, such as flipping tractor tyres and doing farmer's walks. By all accounts the Wallabies' current S & C favours a very different approach with very little emphasis on heavy strength training. Presumably Robbie Deans is satisfied with the conditioning work being done by his players.

The Tri-Nations and the World Cup will give us a clearer indication of whether the Deans experiment has been successful but that assessment will be irrelevant. It has already been decreed by someone much wiser than any of us that his contract will be extended.

 

[barbarian]

The theory of cognitive dissonance seems relevant to the current situation; cognitive dissonance being the mental conflict that people experience when presented with evidence that their beliefs or assumptions are wrong. One way of coping is to focus on those facts that reinforce our beliefs while ignoring those which challenge them. Thus what is imprinted in folk memory is our last gasp victory over the All Blacks in Hong Kong; what is ignored is our previous nine straight losses to them. What is celebrated is the fact that the Wallabies ran in scintillating tries in the second half of the most recent Test against France; what is ignored is our humiliating loss to England two weeks earlier. Bizarrely, the Queensland Reds' victory in the Super 15 is being trumpeted as evidence that all is well with Australian rugby; what is ignored is the fact that three of our franchises finished the race tailed off and limping over the line.

Bruce the reason I choose to be like this is more for my own sanity rather than any bloody-minded ignorance of the true situation. I love rugby and I love the Wallabies, and I like to look on the bright side of everything they do. Some of the negativity on here (despite the fact that it is justified in a fair few cases) just depresses me, and I don't want to be depressed about rugby and the Wallabies. I want to watch every game with the wide-eyed enthusiasm of a child. Positivity helps me to do this, and I find I get far more out of the game because of it.

Call me delusional, but that is the way I like it. I never enjoy the Wallabies losing, but regardless of the result I always want to have a bright view of things.

The Waratahs are another story though...