Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[S'UP]

Unfortunately they're not listening, probably because it doesn't really interest them, but hoorah for you quick hands you seem to be on the right track.

I don't think it is that they are not listening, they are listening but nobody is willing to make the hard calls. there is also the issue of 1. Too many private school old boys having too much power. 2. too many old people (age) in general have too much say in what happens. When someone gets some balls and tells schools, club, districts and anyone else involved in junior rugby this is how it is going to be run and holds firm and implements a plan, we'll continue to see a decline in junior rugby in this state/country. There is plenty of people at the ARU who are well meaning, but a university degree doesn't help you understand the issues, unfortunately this sin't a sports admin text book you are dealing with emotions and real life people. But nobody seems to get that. Look at the JGC all the word out of the ARU is there is no money left and things will have to be cut back, its sounding a lot like the NRC all over again.

 

[Spieber]

I'm not talking about all clubs, some clubs.

For example in the 2000 example I gave, there was a team from Lindfield. The guy who coached the team had to work his guts out to keep it going. He lost a big group to private schools in 13s and then a couple every year. He just kept getting kids from local schools and he kept the team going all the way through. There are enough kids out there, but it's hard work getting them.
At the moment we're just putting on more games for the boys who are already playing rather than getting more boys playing.

EDIT: The private school players already get a game of rugby every week, we need to be putting on games for the boys who don't get that chance. By 16s it will mean that most districts will only have one or maybe two teams, but that team will be the main team for those boys, not the secondary team after their school match.

Let the private school players go, this obsession with private schools is what has got rugby to where we are today.

Same story 5-7 years ago when my guys went through the 15s/16s. The Lindfield teams lost the Priv Sch rock stars but seemingly attracted more of the local high school lads who got dragged along by their mates. Key was to have coaches/managers whose sons weren't Priv Sch rock stars involved in the 12-14s, that were then happy to keep going.
PS A surprising number of these non Priv Sch rock stars are still playing grade!

 

[Quick Hands]

And if you were to run the JGC through the junior clubs and/or district clubs as IS suggested and played the games on Saturdays, you would provide a viable alternative to private school rugby. IMO this would also stem the flow of scholarships, to an extent anyway, as the boys would have high quality games every Saturday at club level.

No need to travel from Newport to Bellevue Hill each day if you can get the same level of coaching and intensity of match at Rat Park.

 

[Fat Cat]

I don't think it is that they are not listening, they are listening but nobody is willing to make the hard calls. there is also the issue of 1. Too many private school old boys having too much power. 2. too many old people (age) in general have too much say in what happens. When someone gets some balls and tells schools, club, districts and anyone else involved in junior rugby this is how it is going to be run and holds firm and implements a plan, we'll continue to see a decline in junior rugby in this state/country. There is plenty of people at the ARU who are well meaning, but a university degree doesn't help you understand the issues, unfortunately this sin't a sports admin text book you are dealing with emotions and real life people. But nobody seems to get that. Look at the JGC all the word out of the ARU is there is no money left and things will have to be cut back, its sounding a lot like the NRC all over again.

exactly right, problem is that if there is somebody willing to make the hard calls their plan will fail to get up due to politics.

 

[Quick Hands]

I think that at least some people on the SJRU committee get it, hence their push to recommence Saturday junior club rugby. I suspect the naysayers would have kids involved in private school rugby and want two bites at the cherry.

I can't see anyway out of this other than returning Sydney junior club rugby to a Saturday competition. The teams who lose players to private schools with either, find more players from elsewhere or the team will fold and the leftovers of various teams will then combine into a team. This was how junior rugby was run for decades. I've seen in done successfully, Speiber has and I'll bet others have as well. I'm certain that it's easier to get boys at 13 or 14 than at 16 to fill the gaps.

The move to Sunday junior rugby was to allow more teams to remain intact, but it's really just an illusion. It's just giving a second game to the privileged few, who then drop it when the 2 games become too much and concentrate on school matches.

 

[Fat Cat]

I don't really agree with Saturday rugby in totality, just the district rep program at the critical age groups. I think you need to dangle a carrot in front some players to keep them there and bring them through to colts and senior rugby and you do that via a rep program played on a Saturday which is accessible via village club rugby

 

[Quick Hands]

Why would you switch to Sundays for 2 or 3 years and then back to Saturdays if your market is the boys who are willing and able to play Saturdays?

 

[Fat Cat]

why do club teams fold, and players leave the game in junior village club rugby in the older age groups ?

• super teams (rep teams) forming and village club teams folding
• rugby league rep pathway (Harold Matts 16's, fleg 18's) offers something rugby does not
• exodus of year 11 and 12 private schools players from village club rugby because they are 1. only allowed to play school rugby in yr 11 and 12, and 2. they have already had they're two bites at the cherry in 15's and 16's to get into higher rep teams and the Nationals and don't need club rugby any more
• rugby league changing to Sundays when Harold matts kicks in
• the perception that it's a waste of time continuing in rugby unless you have gone to a flash school
• too hard on the body when you're older to play 2 games per weekend
• girls, HSC, party's
• ARU and the higher powers not giving a stuff

why are some district clubs struggling to field as many colts and grade teams as they used to.

• all of the above
• money
• Sydney uni

why are the crowds for the Waratahs a lot less than they used to be

• all of the above
• they have forgotten about, limited, and alienated they're grass roots player, and fan base across Sydney

I don't have the answers and I probably have not covered all the issues but I think providing rep pathway where kids feel connected to and aspire to play for the district club is important, working around league comps and reps, having a system where kids stay connected to the village club if they are playing reps instead of going to play for another village club (super team), running multiple age group village club teams in the older age groups. A NSW 1 and NSW 2 team in the Nationals instead of NSW schools and Sydney Juniors

 

[BeastieBoy]

No wonder numbers are dropping. When you compare this to boys in the Souths junior League who pay nothing.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...sis-hits-new-low/story-fni2fxyf-1226822027140

 

[Fat Cat]

they're not saying stuff the juniors now, it's give me some money !

 

[S'UP]

The first thing the ARU could do is scrap the National Junior Gold Program, it is hardly a great success, in my opinion it seems to just roll out self absorbed kids that want piles of money because they deserve it. further to this it creates a them and us attitude which is hardly helpful, everybody should be equal why single kids out at 16, isn't it about giving more kids opportunity not less by isolating the so called best kids.

 

[Gary Owen III]

The first thing the ARU could do is scrap the National Junior Gold Program, it is hardly a great success, in my opinion it seems to just roll out self absorbed kids that want piles of money because they deserve it. further to this it creates a them and us attitude which is hardly helpful, everybody should be equal why single kids out at 16, isn't it about giving more kids opportunity not less by isolating the so called best kids.

S'UP it is a bit harsh to call the JGC a disaster before a single match has been played.

I may not agree with a few of the elements of it, but in fairness it is the first year.

As for the piles of money - it certainly isn't coming from the ARU.

 

[Quick Hands]

The JGC seems to be a high cost, high complexity method of doing something reasonably simple.

To me it stands out like a beacon that it's the type of thing that should have been done at district club level with oversight and support from the ARU, rather than being an ARU micro-managed programme. The same ARU which is to all intents and purposes broke and feels the need to levy $200 on each and every junior team in the country.

It also seems to have added another layer to an already multi-layered, confusing and complicated junior structure. The fact that a current Waratah player felt that he had to join the RL development structure to get anywhere says it all really.

At the risk of oversimplifying things, I'd suggest (for Sydney anyway):

6s-9s play Saturday mornings

10s-14s play Saturdays (morning or afternoon) - the big private school exodus occurs at 13s which means some teams will fold, others will combine and others will go out and find new players to keep going.

15s up play Saturdays - it's been suggested before that these age groups should be part of the district colts set-up. Past experience suggests that most districts will only have one team at this point although some may still have 2. It might well be possible to run a 16A and 16 B competition for 2 age groups and a 18A and 18B competition for 2 age groups. Play the games before 3rd grade colts. This is where the resources that the ARU is putting into JGC should be going.

The idea that the governing body can micro-manage this sort of thing doesn't sound too convincing to me. They should however be resourcing it - there is a difference, although I don't think our highly educated administrators get it. Unfortunately they all view the rugby world through the GPS prism. Pulver & Hawker Shore OBs, Farr-Jones NC, Jason Allen Sth Aust motor racing background. They don't or can't get the concept that a vibrant and successful junior competition ran in Sydney for decades, which didn't have private school players in it because the matches were played at the same time.

Leave the schools to their own devices. They're doing quite well actually and are providing rugby for plenty of boys. It's not where rugby needs to be throwing its thin resources. I certainly don't get the idea that we should be structuring competitions so that some boys can get 2 games of rugby every weekend.

 

[Delphy]

To my mind the ARU has 2 distinct issues that require significant attention and resources:

1. The continued development of elite players to feed grade, NRC, Super and Wallabies. If the game cannot provide quality product on these levels, rugby will very quickly lose all residual interest.
2. The preservation of local club and district rugby, without which people will not feel a sense of ownership and engagement with the game. Rugby should not just be about the few and everyone should have the opportunity to play and socialise with players of like standard/level of commitment/time-pressures (call it what you will)

In terms of retaining and preparing a much greater number of young players for grade, NRC, Super and Wallabies, the Junior Gold comp has huge advantages over the very narrow focus of the superseded NGS and JGS.

An examination of the U17 JGC teams compared to the U16 National teams shows that only half of the NSW Schools, Sydney Juniors, Qld Red and Qld White players are involved in the new programme.

Whilst this may seem disappointing at first glance, in fact it is fantastic news. Most of these non-starters are likely GPS 1st XV players. They will continue to get excellent training and resources. In the meantime 8 squads of boys in Sydney and Brisbane, together with a stack of other players from teams all over Australia will get the similar benefits.

As Fat Cat points out, we need a clear rep pathway to compete with League. JGC gives us that. If successful the comp could give rugby a significant advantage, particularly if extended into U19. Can League boast truly national Junior comp with the prospect of tours etc?

HOWEVER ... in a sense this is the easier issue of the 2 topics I raised at the start.

I am not from Sydney and I do not claim to know the ills of junior rugby in NSW. However our local competition appears to have similar issues surrounding the retention of players from U15 - U18 and into colts.

What pisses me off no end is the hand wringing in WA about losing players. Everyone having a view about why the problem is occurring BUT no one actually asks the boys themselves.

They were registered!!
We have their contact details!!

Once we have a clear understanding of the factors influencing retention and an idea of their relative importance, we can develop better strategies and spend the scarce money/resources in a more effective manner.

Perhaps your junior bodies are more enlightened than ours. Can anyone tell me whether there has been any "exit survey" of the lost players in Sydney junior rugby?

 

[Quick Hands]

Perhaps your junior bodies are more enlightened than ours. Can anyone tell me whether there has been any "exit survey" of the lost players in Sydney junior rugby?

No.

 

[Fat Cat]

firstly different states have different issues and therefore have to be dealt with differently. I can only comment on Sydney.

The level under S15 ie. current district rugby and the junior feed into it is critically important.

The NRC is a nice idea but it will be unaffordable as it was before ( hell every one is broke now), and the feeder to it (district clubs) is not strong enough itself yet to sustain the player feed into the NRC. The districts are struggling to put teams on the park now. I do agree that we need it in the future for other states ie WA, SA, VIC.

I don't think we need the JGC in its current structure. I think we could get a look at kids in other more cost effective ways across the country. And despite the $600 bloody price tag per kid, which would be interesting to see how many kids paid full freight, I'll bet it goes way over budget. And it already at only 14 or 15 years of age is pigeon holing a select few on an elite pathway. so if you don't cut the mustard now do you bugger off ? isn't the whole idea to broaden our player base not shrink it ! what's the name of this thread again ?

In Sydney I think we should have younger age colts playing on Saturday in the 15 and 17 year old age groups. this works 1. to provide the pathway needed to bring junior players and coaches through to the senior club. 2. works around the rugby league rep program. 3 when you are U/18 if you are not in the private school system you just play colts as they do now. 4. works around the schools rep program.

I also think that the serious rep pathway ie selections for S15 train on squads, should start at colts level or just above so as to encourage all players into the district rugby system. Not just from OZ schools

its nice to have big extravagant ideas but in the current climate in Australian rugby ideas have to be cost effective.

band-aids and money at the top, or quick fixes aint goin to work boys. you have to start at the bottom and have a pathway that is inclusive for EVERYBODY

 

[S'UP]

S'UP it is a bit harsh to call the JGC a disaster before a single match has been played.

I may not agree with a few of the elements of it, but in fairness it is the first year.

As for the piles of money - it certainly isn't coming from the ARU.

I wasn't talking about the junior gold cup, I was talking about the national gold program for the so called elite kids. apologies for the confusion

 

[S'UP]

To my mind the ARU has 2 distinct issues that require significant attention and resources:

advantages over the very narrow focus of the superseded NGS and JGS.


unfortunately the NGS still exists, those boys still do their own things. At our local JGC group the NGS are given special privileges as they are in the NGS.

 

[sarcophilus]

The first thing the ARU could do is scrap the National Junior Gold Program, it is hardly a great success, in my opinion it seems to just roll out self absorbed kids that want piles of money because they deserve it. further to this it creates a them and us attitude which is hardly helpful, everybody should be equal why single kids out at 16, isn't it about giving more kids opportunity not less by isolating the so called best kids.

ah ... from the home of God squads and dog squads .... Eastwood.

It seems to me the Junior gold program, that has now become the national championships that you so malign, provides a reat oportunity for club players to access training, encouragement, game intensity and competition and an opportunity to network that might not have been otherwise available to them. Provides a significant alternative to opportunities provided by other codes.

cutting the advertising budget and loyalty programmes doesn't seem to be the way most businesses expand into a market ... though my economic or commerce credentials may not stand the warmth of the sun.
It strikes me this programme is less the domain of silver-tails than programmes that came before but is supported by a handful of schools that play rugby as a primary sport.

it would be interesting to weigh the commitment to these regional/zone teams against commitment to the club teams that have stood out in the state championships leading into these comps..

I am a bit of a fan of the conversation hour with Richard from the Doug Anthony all-stars , he recently interviewed a qantas Pilot that managed to avoid a catastrophe, copying a technique also used to save an Apollo mission .... he gave up working out what didn't work and started using what did

The JGS melting pot works ..for the next generation of players... it begins to build the strong network and community that is a strength of Rugby. It dilutes the public school image that discourages those outside the nursery districts and makes the game accessible to the great unwashed

from these teams I do not expect to see a "roll out self absorbed kids that want piles of money because they deserve it" and even at this level i would be surprised to see more than 1 in 10 play first grade for their senior club. What I would hope to see is a group of players that have developed a love of the game that will be disciples in the future contributing to a mass critical to the games survival in this country

 

[Ozzie Bob]

Ive got to say i am very surprised at the state of Sydney juniors. When i was playing in the mid 90's your whole club would play a whole round against another club home or away. The day would stretch from Under 10's through to Under 17's. Some of my best rugby memories.

Do some of these club even exist anymore?

Dundas Valley
Wests juniors
North Rocks
Merrylands
Wentworthville


I have got to say there were some major problems when i was playing. There were groups of kids from a private school who all wanted to play together (They did produce two wallabies) but they ruined the comp by recruiting from smaller clubs and basically forming the rep team at one club. Sure they won premiership after premiership but did winning 100-0 each week help sustain the comp? It sure didn't!