Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Dave Beat]

Just a thought to be built / constructed.

Private Schools Focus on;
Private schools have an A & B side playing in their current comps unchanged. Private Schools are doing a great job at the moment.

ARU invest in;
Their c's & d's ....... play in the local club comp in their school jersey, with;
Is it club comp made of CHS selected teams, or Junior Clubs within the district (might be different in each area).

 

[Brainstrust]

What they are trying to achieve is to actually have the boys playing in that competition represent that competition. I could only imagine the protests if somebody from a non-private school was able to be selected into the Private Schoolboys rep team or an All Black selected in the Australian team . Why should a boy who plays in a competition have his spot taken away by somebody who does not play in that competition anymore?

Druid, I see your point and don't have a major issue either way. The grandfather clause can be whatever it has to be. Another way to think about it is why should a player that has played club rugby for say 8 years, rep rugby for 5 years and can no longer fit a season of club rugby in, be denied a rep spot if good enough, and we then take a leagie who signed up this year to club so he can get a crack at SJRU selection to play in the u16 nationals, then probably foots it after selection. You see there are always other ways to see this problem. Maybe the grand father clause should be along the lines of having played say 3 of the last 5 seasons in club rugby.. Don't know just a suggestion... But one thing I am sure of is the more you drive the stronger players away from that pathway, the weaker product you have and the less desirable it becomes to be involved in. Fact is you are just supporting the school boy pathway even more.

 

[Dave Beat]

Grandfather Mother- in law Politics is bollox, lets just look at building and promoting a structure that builds enjoyable rugby for young kids and have them wanting to play.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Re Ghost Players, Grandfather clauses etc in U16 reps, Interpretation of rules has got TSC in a bit of trouble over in the AAGPS arena regarding perceived enticements to good sportsmen. Rules is rules.

The SJRU rep team and NSW JRU rep teams should be drawn from players who are active in the competition sponsored by those bodies.

Would a Grandfather clause be acceptable to parachute someone such as Matt Giteau back into the Wobs without him playing in the Super Rugby Competition preceding his selection?

Not every kid playing rugby sees themselves as a Rep Rock star. Plenty play club footy just for the fun of it. Maybe we should be focusing a little more on the "battlers" of rugbydom and leave the Rock Stars to sort themselves out on whichever pathway they desire: School, club, JGC, Loig, or all of the above.

The challenge for SJRU should be to get more players playing the game, not to get the limited numbers of good players playing better. Lots of other mobs around to do the latter task.

 

[S'UP]

given the time between the the 16's sides for the national championship being selected and when the games are actually played. You could do the following pick two schools sides, pick 2 SJRU side and then have them play over one weekend and select a NSW 1 and NSW 2 teams for the nationals. This would allow boys just to play school as there is more opportunity and the boys playing club would also have greater opportunity hence eliminating the arguement that someone from schools took a SJRU boys place.

 

[Dave Beat]

Just adding to my post above;
The following would possibly build what is already working (strong private school system), and thus by the ARU focusing on B in possibly strengthening A even more.

A. Private Schools Focus on;
Private schools have an A & B side playing in their current comps unchanged. Private Schools are doing a great job at the moment.

B. ARU invest in (focus on);
The Private school c's & d's ....... play in the local club comp in their school jersey, with;
Is it club comp made of strong highschool teams, and or CHS selected teams, and / or Junior Clubs within the district (might be different in each area).

 

[BeastieBoy]

There is a Friday night comp up to U12. Change that to Wednesday night and continue it on for older age groups. That will give the older boys more time to recover and still meet their school committments. That will increase numbers hopefully and create a unbroken junior pathway with their existing clubs that also links into colts.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Kids have school the next day and to give people time to get from work to home to remote ground you could not start the first game before 6:30.
You need to play several games if it's multiple ages and before you know it it's 10pm.
At least by then the traffic is lighter.
To say nothing of the dearth of decent lighting in Sydney for rugby, particularly in the East.

 

[Brainstrust]

Re Ghost Players, Grandfather clauses etc in U16 reps, Interpretation of rules has got TSC in a bit of trouble over in the AAGPS arena regarding perceived enticements to good sportsmen. Rules is rules.

The SJRU rep team and NSW JRU rep teams should be drawn from players who are active in the competition sponsored by those bodies.

Would a Grandfather clause be acceptable to parachute someone such as Matt Giteau back into the Wobs without him playing in the Super Rugby Competition preceding his selection?

Not every kid playing rugby sees themselves as a Rep Rock star. Plenty play club footy just for the fun of it. Maybe we should be focusing a little more on the "battlers" of rugbydom and leave the Rock Stars to sort themselves out on whichever pathway they desire: School, club, JGC, Loig, or all of the above.

The challenge for SJRU should be to get more players playing the game, not to get the limited numbers of good players playing better. Lots of other mobs around to do the latter task.

HJ, I agree to some extent re GF clauses. They were out there fir the exact reason to try and keep players in the club/ district pathway, rightly or wrongly. The overriding issue is to get players engaged in club rugby. Whether we agree or not, any strategy to have schools enter club comps etc just will never be reality.
Perhaps the SJRU should consider running a parallel 7's comp on Sundays. If the rigours of playing 2 hard games a weekend is too much for the 16's up, then perhaps a 7's comp ( Olympic sport) may have merit. It would engage the stronger players in the system, probably get some genuine government and ARU support. To be fair I get all the sides of this debate, and everyone has a valid point, but to get numbers and interest back up, SJRU needs to offer something to the masses to draw them back in.

 

[Gary Owen III]

HJ, I agree to some extent re GF clauses. They were out there fir the exact reason to try and keep players in the club/ district pathway, rightly or wrongly. The overriding issue is to get players engaged in club rugby. Whether we agree or not, any strategy to have schools enter club comps etc just will never be reality.
Perhaps the SJRU should consider running a parallel 7's comp on Sundays. If the rigours of playing 2 hard games a weekend is too much for the 16's up, then perhaps a 7's comp ( Olympic sport) may have merit. It would engage the stronger players in the system, probably get some genuine government and ARU support. To be fair I get all the sides of this debate, and everyone has a valid point, but to get numbers and interest back up, SJRU needs to offer something to the masses to draw them back in.

Brainstrust - funny you should mention the idea of 7's, as i am told the SJRU guys only just went out a few weeks ago to the clubs to ask them what they wanted for the U16's this year.

The ideas were a split season with a fresh comp after the State Champs, be it a 15's, 10's or 7's comp. This was not just to accommodate the GF kids that have been widely debated but more to freshen up the age group and get more kids involved (or staying involved might be a better description). Maybe a 7's comp or something similar might help numbers as it is something new.

I am told that the clubs came back with half wanting something new and the other half wanting things to stay the same. So the U16's are staying at a 14 round comp.

At least there is some light as the SJRU are going to host a dedicated 7's comp after the Grand Finals in Sept. Might just be the thin edge of the wedge.

 

[Quick Hands]

The last missive from the SJRU that I saw, which only came out this week, said that they will definitely be running Saturday competitions this year. As Gary Owen III has said, this will occur in a 10s or 7s format if they can't run it as 15s.

IMO the SJRU need to forget about trying to accommodate private school players, all this does is alienate some of the boys who don't go to private schools. I was involved in coaching a 17s team in the northern zone back in 2000. This was the last age group that had gone through playing all matches at 2pm on Saturday afternoons. At the start of the season Northern Zone tried to get us to play on Sundays as that was when all the age groups below played. (I think a guy Spana ? was behind it) Anyway, I was pointed out to him that none of the teams involved had any private schoolboys playing and if the competition was moved to Sundays, then at least 4 of the teams would have to fold because a number of boys played league on Sundays.

The guy at Northern Zone backed down, but since then all games from 10s to 17s have been played on Friday nights or Sundays and I think from 13s up it's all Sundays. I can't help but think that there are non-private school players who would play in a Saturday competition, but who won't play on Sundays.

IMO SJRU need to develop competitions of their own, which don't rely on being propped up by private school players backing up from their Saturday school match and playing on Sunday. I was at the meeting back in the 90s when Northern Zone moved from playing all games on Saturdays. In the first season or two, matches were still programmed for Saturdays, but by mutual agreement they could be rescheduled for Friday nights or Sundays. So many games were being moved they just did away with Saturday rugby. It was done for the best motive; i.e. to keep teams viable and give as many boys as possible the chance to play. Long term, however, it's just made junior rugby the poor cousin to school rugby to the point where it can barely exist without private school players. Some clubs have just become lazy and instead of getting out and finding new players when school rugby starts, they just keep using the school players - which works until 16s, but then it all falls apart and it's impossible to find many new players at that age. Much easier to recruit players in 13s than in 16s.

There will be some short term pain here, but I'd suggest that they move all their games back to Saturdays, build a long-term, sustainable structure which should lessen the need for the best players to head off to the private school system. It's not that long ago that all Sydney junior club rugby started at 9am with 10s and finished with a 2pm 17s match. We don't have to re-invent the wheel, but we have to rebuild it and that requires some pain.

 

[CatchnPass]

I think you're being a bit tough on some of the clubs QH - I don't think it's laziness. Our club on the North side has always had about 80+% of boys go to private schools from yr 7, reflecting the demographic average. Inevitably a no drop out in yrs 7,8 and 9, there are not a lot of eligible (not already playing club) non-private school kids in the District to replace them and any attempt to go outside the District is, rightly, howled about to the SJRU. We work pretty hard to recruit those available, but it's a losing battle and inevitably decline sets in by u14s. I don't have the answers, but if all of the private school boys drop out it will be game over.

 

[Quick Hands]

I'm not talking about all clubs, some clubs.

For example in the 2000 example I gave, there was a team from Lindfield. The guy who coached the team had to work his guts out to keep it going. He lost a big group to private schools in 13s and then a couple every year. He just kept getting kids from local schools and he kept the team going all the way through. There are enough kids out there, but it's hard work getting them.
At the moment we're just putting on more games for the boys who are already playing rather than getting more boys playing.

EDIT: The private school players already get a game of rugby every week, we need to be putting on games for the boys who don't get that chance. By 16s it will mean that most districts will only have one or maybe two teams, but that team will be the main team for those boys, not the secondary team after their school match.

Let the private school players go, this obsession with private schools is what has got rugby to where we are today.

 

[CatchnPass]

I'm not talking about all clubs, some clubs.

For example in the 2000 example I gave, there was a team from Lindfield. The guy who coached the team had to work his guts out to keep it going. He lost a big group to private schools in 13s and then a couple every year. He just kept getting kids from local schools and he kept the team going all the way through. There are enough kids out there, but it's hard work getting them.
At the moment we're just putting on more games for the boys who are already playing rather than getting more boys playing.

I agree with your last sentence, but question the no of alternative players in local state schools. I'd hazard a guess that there is an even higher proportion of Lindfield boys in private schools now than in 2000. Not to say it can't be done, but we have gone from 4 to 3 to 2 and I fear 1 team this year, all the while working hard on the recruitment front. The demographic of the local schools is also not as Rugby friendly as it once was. Don't take that the wrong way - we welcome players of any creed, but the Asian boys in particular are not large participants (both senses) in Heaven's game.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Don't take that the wrong way - we welcome players of any creed, but the Asian boys in particular are not large participants (both senses) in Heaven's game.

I coached a prop from up that way who was asian, big and good

 

[CatchnPass]

I coached a prop from up that way who was asian, big and good

Ditto. And a very good o/c centre. Alas a sunny day does not a summer make

 

[Quick Hands]

I certainly concede that the private school demographic hits Gordon and probably Easts harder than it hits anyone else. One thing which has been suggested before is that from 15s on, teams are run by the district club and play before colts on Saturday mornings. I think it has some merit.

Even back in 2000, even though the boys were playing for village clubs, they were the only club in each district, so they were essentially district rep teams anyway.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The district clubs should have been asked to run the JGC - it would have given them a stake in its success and let the ARU merely organise the comp and make sure the clubs were living up to their end of the bargain.

 

[Quick Hands]

This little item in this morning's Sun-Herald says a lot about the state of junior club rugby in Sydney.

Talking of Waratahs player Alofa Alofa:

A rugby player all his life, the Auckland born, Sydney raised son of Christian ministers was forced into the rugby league development system (as a youth) because there was - and still is - nothing comparable that rugby could offer him.

Says what I and many others have been saying on these threads for some time.

Over to you NSWRU/ARU - get something happening in those areas of Sydney without ANY junior village clubs. Bill, Nick F-J are you listening?

SJRU get competitions running which cater for boys who aren't at private, rugby playing schools.

EDIT: This idea that we have to provide a second game of rugby every weekend for some boys, while boys in other parts of Sydney can't even play one game a week because there is no local junior club is just bizarre.

 

[Fat Cat]

Unfortunately they're not listening, probably because it doesn't really interest them, but hoorah for you quick hands you seem to be on the right track.