Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Hugh Jarse]

If the team is to be called the SJRU Representative Under 16 team, then the Grandfather clause is endorsed cheating.

If the team is to be selected from Sydney rugby players who are Under 16 years of age (which is effectively what the Grandfather clause makes it), then the team should be referred to by its correct name which would be Sydney Under 16. This raises the minor question of what "colours" it plays under, I'd go for Sydney Rugby Union branding.

If the NSW JRU State Championships are restricted to "genuine" Village Cub players with no chance of a rep jersey for "players of convenience" from Private Schools, then @Inside Shoulder is probably correct and there will be a flow on to SJRU player numbers at A grade competition level in Under 15's and probably Under 14's as well within SJRU competitions.

This sorry state of affairs just goes to further reinforce that hidden behind the rhetoric in all the fancy reports, there are serious structural issues with "The Pathway" that need urgent attention, Too many people fighting over the same group of kids.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Like always, we can continue to subsidise the club system, have people look at the numbers bolstered by Private Schools and agree everything is rosy. Or maybe look at the reality of the situation and instead of still doing favours in the club competition for Private School kids actually address the real problem here which is to diversify the player base and attract more non-provate school kids and broaden & grow the base of Rugby. Unless we broaden the base the title of this forum will continue.

I agree.
So move it to saturday - get the league kids in and work on recruiting in the areas (75%) of Sydney where the private schools don't dominate.

 

[Quick Hands]

What it's all about? http://www.juniors.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/2007_Constitution.pdf

From the most current (but outdated) approved version of the SJRU Constitution, it's supposed to be about:
The Union is empowered to grow, develop, foster, regulate, promote and control all Junior rugby union within the Sydney metropolitan area and such other areas as may be determined from time to time.

The 2010 Garling Report into Junior Rugby in Sydney dedicated 6 of its 19 pages to a review of the SJRU constitution http://www.nswrugby.com.au/Portals/3/Documents/Juniors/2010/Garling Report-2010.pdf.

Mr Garling observed that:
As presently structured SJRU is not in a position to claim to control Junior Rugby because it is only relevant to about half of the Junior Rugby players in the Sydney Metropolitan area because the public and private schools represent and control the other half.


There was almost total agreement that the levels of organisations within Junior rugby was to great and the structure too complex for what is essentially a simple process.



All the clubs want is to play in a competition that is well organised and as far as possible fair.
Everyone was opposed to the creation of “Super” teams.
Everyone was opposed to those coaches and managers who deliberately have their teams play in an inferior grade.

In my personal experience there will in any sport always be the coach or manager who wants to achieve glory through his or her son’s success and will attempt to achieve that with intensity. That desire has to be managed.

Mr Garling concluded that the objective of the SJRU should be:
“To organise competitions for Junior Rugby Players from Village Clubs within the Greater Sydney area and to regulate and manage those competitions.”

That report was prepared in 2010.

4 years later, while there have been some internal organisational changes within SJRU, it would appear that there have been no alterations to the SJRU Constitution approved under clause 14.0 of the Constitution, despite Mr Garling's view that "I am not certain that the current Constitution complies with the requirements of the Associations Incorporations Act 2009 (NSW) and that needs to be considered."

So is the SJRU either organising, regulating and managing competitions for Junior Village Club Players within Sydney, or growing, developing, fostering, regulating, promoting and controlling Junior Rugby Union?




I found this clause in "the old" (current) Constitution to be interesting.

23.1. The constitution or Memorandum and Articles of Association of each Affiliate and any rules and/or regulations made there under, shall be in such terms as are approved by the Committee.

23.3 The Committee may, at any time, require any Affiliate to alter, add to or repeal any provisions of its Constitution, rules or regulations or Memorandum and Articles of Association in such manner as the Committee may direct.

Wonder when The Committee exercised their powers under clause 23.1 or 23.3?
Have they even reviewed any constitutions, or Memorandum and Articles of Association, and rules and/or regulations of any of the approximate 55 Affiliates they have to ensure that they are such terms as are approved by The Committee?

What it's all about is giving kids a game of rugby every week in an environment and structure where the kids are having fun, learning rugby skills and learning social skills as well.

Sometime in the past 10 years or so, this has become subverted. We now have adults manoeuvering and manipulating as I've never seen anywhere before to achieve their own ends.

The two big changes introduced in this time:

1. Sunday club rugby

2. Sydney wide competitions from 10s on

Both introduced to increase and/or maintian playing numbers.

The first to enable private school players to back up and play twice and the second to reduce mismatches and thus make rugby more enjoyable.

With the greatest respect to any who genuinely believed that, both have had precisely the opposite effect. Number fall, private school players can't back up as the game has become more physical, mismatches still occur and the A division has become the domain of district rep teams (and from what I hear the majority of kids playing have no interest in being in an A comp and getting flogged every week by the wonder children)

 

[Quick Hands]

Like always, we can continue to subsidise the club system, have people look at the numbers bolstered by Private Schools and agree everything is rosy. Or maybe look at the reality of the situation and instead of still doing favours in the club competition for Private School kids actually address the real problem here which is to diversify the player base and attract more non-provate school kids and broaden & grow the base of Rugby. Unless we broaden the base the title of this forum will continue.

Correct. So as long as clubs are allowed to prop up otherwise unviable teams with private school players, there is no incentive to go and recruit new players. This is what used to happen from 13s on - as players left to go to private schools, teams combined and/or went out and recruited. It's much easier to recruit 13 year olds than 16 year olds.

The Chatswood 16s would have to be a case study in the unintended consequences of Sunday club rugby.

 

[Brainstrust]

Correct. So as long as clubs are allowed to prop up otherwise unviable teams with private school players, there is no incentive to go and recruit new players. This is what used to happen from 13s on - as players left to go to private schools, teams combined and/or went out and recruited. It's much easier to recruit 13 year olds than 16 year olds.

The Chatswood 16s would have to be a case study in the unintended consequences of Sunday club rugby.

I really am struggling to grasp the concept of making the game basically beyond participation for boys committed to school rugby on a Saturday in the hope of luring committed league players to the game in their place on a Saturday ? Is there any research or assessment to suggest that the problems that many school rugby players / their families that deter them from committing to two days of rugby won't be the same for the league fraternity? If a team is unviable without private school boys why will it all of a sudden become viable with leagies?
What happens when the leagies are moving into the Harold and sg ball stage through 15/16's to 18's. Do you think they will prefer to play club rugby instead? I do not see shifting the game to Saturday as a solution, but most likely the final death of the junior club system. I agree something needs to happen to improve numbers, and quite possibly it may come from things out of the SJRU's control, such as a successful Wallaby team, some profile and traction from the NRC etc. my many years in junior club rugby were extremely rewarding. Great comps, competitive teams ( and that's not every team, but 3 or so in an age group) . I like many have been frustrated with the self serving dribble from the SJRU, but I have also seen a lot of clubs set up a table and hope people turn up to register. For what it's worth, the Chatswood 16's issues this year are due to the sudden removal of the grand father rule. If it had been done years earlier, Warringah, Lindfield and many others would have been exactly in the same spot.

 

[Druid]

What it's all about is giving kids a game of rugby every week in an environment and structure where the kids are having fun, learning rugby skills and learning social skills as well.

Sometime in the past 10 years or so, this has become subverted. We now have adults manoeuvering and manipulating as I've never seen anywhere before to achieve their own ends.

The two big changes introduced in this time:

1. Sunday club rugby

2. Sydney wide competitions from 10s on

Both introduced to increase and/or maintian playing numbers.

The first to enable private school players to back up and play twice and the second to reduce mismatches and thus make rugby more enjoyable.

With the greatest respect to any who genuinely believed that, both have had precisely the opposite effect. Number fall, private school players can't back up as the game has become more physical, mismatches still occur and the A division has become the domain of district rep teams (and from what I hear the majority of kids playing have no interest in being in an A comp and getting flogged every week by the wonder children)

I grew up playing Rugby on Saturday's and belief that is the day Rugby should be played, however I do like the graded competition. The problem is not graded competition but the world we live in. I have been involved in mini's now for about 9 years through my sons involvement. Throughout this time there has been no competition in mini's just games. In spite of this some clubs/coaches still graded their teams when there were enough players to support this. e.g. 1 team was a team of superstars and the other team were not. When these two teams played each other, from the same club, there would be 60 points in it, and this is what happens when there isn't even a competition or trophy to be won!!!! Quite often the adults who want their child/team to win above all else, quite often to the detriment of the players, are the ones that shout the largest and try and bully and cajole their way through the system finding loopholes etc. A number of hardy souls try and stand up against this but often get worn down by the constant pressure of it all, whilst the silent majority see it happen, shake their head and quite often walk away from organise junior sport.

 

[Quick Hands]

I really am struggling to grasp the concept of making the game basically beyond participation for boys committed to school rugby on a Saturday in the hope of luring committed league players to the game in their place on a Saturday ? Is there any research or assessment to suggest that the problems that many school rugby players / their families that deter them from committing to two days of rugby won't be the same for the league fraternity? If a team is unviable without private school boys why will it all of a sudden become viable with leagies?
What happens when the leagies are moving into the Harold and sg ball stage through 15/16's to 18's. Do you think they will prefer to play club rugby instead? I do not see shifting the game to Saturday as a solution, but most likely the final death of the junior club system. I agree something needs to happen to improve numbers, and quite possibly it may come from things out of the SJRU's control, such as a successful Wallaby team, some profile and traction from the NRC etc. my many years in junior club rugby were extremely rewarding. Great comps, competitive teams ( and that's not every team, but 3 or so in an age group) . I like many have been frustrated with the self serving dribble from the SJRU, but I have also seen a lot of clubs set up a table and hope people turn up to register. For what it's worth, the Chatswood 16's issues this year are due to the sudden removal of the grand father rule. If it had been done years earlier, Warringah, Lindfield and many others would have been exactly in the same spot.

The phenomenon of Sunday club rugby is relatively new - about 1999. Prior to that all junior club rugby in Sydney was played on a Saturday and for the most part private school players couldn't play. When teams lost numbers at Year 7/under 13s level that had a choice to get off their backsides and recruit boys who weren't playing rugby, merge with another team in a similar situation or fold. The move to Sunday rugby was done to INCREASE the number of teams by allowing the private school boys to keep playing.

The unintended consequence seems to have been that with the pressure to recruit at 13s gone, most clubs stopped doing so. So we now actually have LESS players, but some players playing twice. When the private school players find it too physical at 15/16 coupled with the normal drop off in team sport at that age, we've barely enough teams to run viable competitons - in a city of 5 million people.

 

[Druid]

I agree.
So move it to saturday - get the league kids in and work on recruiting in the areas (75%) of Sydney where the private schools don't dominate.

In most of Western Sydney Rugby League up until Under 15s/16 is played on a Saturday so moving to Saturday will not encourage League players. The exception of this, funnily enough, is the Catholic Competition which runs on a Saturday. I think we have to get away from getting League players, school players etc. etc. when we get to Juniors and focus on getting more kids into Minis. Get them into Mini's, regarless of where they come from, have them enjoy the sport, promote club loyalty and the kids will want to stick around into Juniors regardless of which school they go to.

 

[Quick Hands]

I grew up playing Rugby on Saturday's and belief that is the day Rugby should be played, however I do like the graded competition. The problem is not graded competition but the world we live in. I have been involved in mini's now for about 9 years through my sons involvement. Throughout this time there has been no competition in mini's just games. In spite of this some clubs/coaches still graded their teams when there were enough players to support this. e.g. 1 team was a team of superstars and the other team were not. When these two teams played each other, from the same club, there would be 60 points in it, and this is what happens when there isn't even a competition or trophy to be won!!!! Quite often the adults who want their child/team to win above all else, quite often to the detriment of the players, are the ones that shout the largest and try and bully and cajole their way through the system finding loopholes etc. A number of hardy souls try and stand up against this but often get worn down by the constant pressure of it all, whilst the silent majority see it happen, shake their head and quite often walk away from organise junior sport.

Nothing wrong with graded comps - there are 89 teams in the 10s. Enough to have graded comps and still be on a reasonably local scale. From I've seen and been told, as the boys get older the only way to survive in the A competition is to bascially have all your rep players at one club. If a district has its rep players split into any more than 2 teams, none of the teams will be strong enough to compete in the A comp. The choice is to have your rep players playing in B or C competitions or rationalise within the district so that most if not all are at the one club. Not much of a choice in my book - but the reality.

 

[Quick Hands]

In most of Western Sydney Rugby League up until Under 15s/16 is played on a Saturday so moving to Saturday will not encourage League players. The exception of this, funnily enough, is the Catholic Competition which runs on a Saturday. I think we have to get away from getting League players, school players etc. etc. when we get to Juniors and focus on getting more kids into Minis. Get them into Mini's, regarless of where they come from, have them enjoy the sport, promote club loyalty and the kids will want to stick around into Juniors regardless of which school they go to.

Or we could try to get boys who don't play either league or union into rugby. It's been done before.

 

[Druid]

Nothing wrong with graded comps - there are 89 teams in the 10s. Enough to have graded comps and still be on a reasonably local scale. From I've seen and been told, as the boys get older the only way to survive in the A competition is to bascially have all your rep players at one club. If a district has its rep players split into any more than 2 teams, none of the teams will be strong enough to compete in the A comp. The choice is to have your rep players playing in B or C competitions or rationalise within the district so that most if not all are at the one club. Not much of a choice in my book - but the reality.

Yes, but to get a reasonably graded competition in some parts of Sydney you have to look at breaking down districts, or having district join in competition they do not want to be in and that is another can of political worms. Take for Example the Under 13s age group in the West this year.

Parramatta District: 1 team (C Grade)
Penrith District: 1 team (D Grade)
West Harbour: 2 teams (C Grade combined U14s/U13s team, & "D" Grade)
Eastwood District 3 teams (2* B Grade and E grade)

To get a reasonable graded competition you would probably need to combine all of these districts with both Norths and Gordon, who I doubt would be thrilled by that idea. This would leave the beaches by themselves and you probably would still not have enough teams in the South and East to form a viable graded competition. I think, with the current numbers, you would only be able to split Sydney up into 3 regions and only up until U14s at most before going to Sydney Wide.

 

[Brainstrust]

The phenomenon of Sunday club rugby is relatively new - about 1999. Prior to that all junior club rugby in Sydney was played on a Saturday and for the most part private school players couldn't play. When teams lost numbers at Year 7/under 13s level that had a choice to get off their backsides and recruit boys who weren't playing rugby, merge with another team in a similar situation or fold. The move to Sunday rugby was done to INCREASE the number of teams by allowing the private school boys to keep playing.

The unintended consequence seems to have been that with the pressure to recruit at 13s gone, most clubs stopped doing so. So we now actually have LESS players, but some players playing twice. When the private school players find it too physical at 15/16 coupled with the normal drop off in team sport at that age, we've barely enough teams to run viable competitons - in a city of 5 million people.

For the very same reasons bringing leagies in wont solve the issue around 16's. I do agree that if the problem is not actively attracting boys in that important 12's and 13's age group then clubs have to actually do more. I believe it is a curriculum requirement for all schools that children do a number of hours of physical sport each week. Possibly some of the clubs should network with schools to give club rugby as an option of fulfilling those requirements. Meant help both schools and clubs. Perhaps schools could enter teams to play in the club comp as an option.?

 

[loiterer]

I don't understand why so many people seem to get so worked up about private school kids playing in the SJRU competition, and possibly being in rep teams. Would you prefer them to go to soccer or AFL?

 

[Quick Hands]

For the very same reasons bringing leagies in wont solve the issue around 16's. I do agree that if the problem is not actively attracting boys in that important 12's and 13's age group then clubs have to actually do more. I believe it is a curriculum requirement for all schools that children do a number of hours of physical sport each week. Possibly some of the clubs should network with schools to give club rugby as an option of fulfilling those requirements. Meant help both schools and clubs. Perhaps schools could enter teams to play in the club comp as an option.?

Which is why I haven't talked about "bringing in leaguies". See post #950

 

[Quick Hands]

I don't understand why so many people seem to get so worked up about private school kids playing in the SJRU competition, and possibly being in rep teams. Would you prefer them to go to soccer or AFL?

You're missing the point - Sunday club rugby was brought in to INCREASE the number of players. Having some boys playing twice isn't increasing the number of players. It could and probably does indirectly lead to less boys playing as it removes the need for teams to recruit new players. Read post #947 to save me repeating myself.

 

[Quick Hands]

Yes, but to get a reasonably graded competition in some parts of Sydney you have to look at breaking down districts, or having district join in competition they do not want to be in and that is another can of political worms. Take for Example the Under 13s age group in the West this year.

Parramatta District: 1 team (C Grade)
Penrith District: 1 team (D Grade)
West Harbour: 2 teams (C Grade combined U14s/U13s team, & "D" Grade)
Eastwood District 3 teams (2* B Grade and E grade)

To get a reasonable graded competition you would probably need to combine all of these districts with both Norths and Gordon, who I doubt would be thrilled by that idea. This would leave the beaches by themselves and you probably would still not have enough teams in the South and East to form a viable graded competition. I think, with the current numbers, you would only be able to split Sydney up into 3 regions and only up until U14s at most before going to Sydney Wide.

It's 10s-14s that I'm talking about in terms of the damage that Sydney wide does/has done.

The Sydney region was split into 3 regions up until a few years ago. It worked - until there was essentially a hostile takeover by SJRU.

 

[loiterer]

You're missing the point - Sunday club rugby was brought in to INCREASE the number of players. Having some boys playing twice isn't increasing the number of players. It could and probably does indirectly lead to less boys playing as it removes the need for teams to recruit new players. Read post #947 to save me repeating myself.

In my son's rugby team there are three types of players, those that go to private schools, those that play league on Saturday and those that play other sports on Saturday. Moving the competition to Saturdays would create a lot of recruiting opportunities.

 

[Man on the hill]

The comp manager put a direction to all host clubs to allow all games to go ahead and issues would be sorted out post match. that may be why people thought it was cleared. ..

Actually that is the standard line from the comp rules

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Just want to make it clear that that is not why Mosman/HH thought it had been cleared.

 

[Quick Hands]

So what we're doing leads to less teams, particuarly in the older age groups and what we were doing previously was more successful, so we should keep doing what we're doing and not revert to the more successful approaches?