Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Hugh Jarse]

Nothing like the finals series to get the juices flowing, apart from the annual Under 16 Selection Processes during and after State Champs.

 

[LucyPomPom]

It's a sad outcome in the history of both these great clubs (Mosman and HH) and in particular all the players involved. SJRU administration has a lot to answer for - they have clearly done a huge backflip here.

 

[I like to watch]

Sorry,but turning up with 7 newbies without players cards to play in a final?
Don't care if they are kosher or not, if that was allowed why even bother with rego's?

 

[Quick Hands]

It's a sad outcome in the history of both these great clubs (Mosman and HH) and in particular all the players involved. SJRU administration has a lot to answer for - they have clearly done a huge backflip here.

How long does this history of Mosman and Hunter's Hill stretch back?

They are hardly geographically very close are they?

Isn't the HH affiliation to Norths a quite recent development?

The people who have to answer are probably those who have broken the rules, rather than those who have enforced them.

 

[mangled]

That's right. .. clubs were told to check sheets and arrange to put all players on them. .. including one's most likely to play up. ....

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I think Lucy PomPom's reference is to the fact that a protest earlier in the season on the same basis was dismissed.
I would say one of 2 things of such inconsistency:

1. another ugly incident in life's rich tapestry
2. typical

some will consider that's just saying the same thing 2 ways, at best

 

[Quick Hands]

I think Lucy PomPom's reference is to the fact that a protest earlier in the season on the same basis was dismissed.
I would say one of 2 things of such inconsistency:

1. another ugly incident in life's rich tapestry
2. typical

some will consider that's just saying the same thing 2 ways, at best

As I've said before on this thread, of all the sports my kids play/have played, the SJRU is the only one that I have absolutely no faith in whatsoever.

 

[In the lineout]

To be honest, i thought that the SJRU would have disqualified Hills from the grand final on the basis they are not on the north shore, and promoted Chatswood to the grand final to ensure consistency is maintained throughout the competition.....or is that just being too cynical?

 

[In the lineout]

Quite odd - you suggested it had been cleared by the competition manager. I'm sure you know how "connected" HH to the SJRU so its even more strange that if the comp manager cleared it they got stung later.

I was informed by someone at the ground, that the HH Manager advised Raptors quite clearly that the SJRU had cleared it. I suppose you can say anything on the day and then cross everything to hope it doesnt get followed up or found out.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I was informed by someone at the ground, that the HH Manager advised Raptors quite clearly that the SJRU had cleared it. I suppose you can say anything on the day and then cross everything to hope it doesnt get followed up or found out.

The team manager maintains that the competition manager had cleared it. Apparently, the problem is that the kids who came up from 15s were rep players and the competition rules require substitutes from lower ages or lower grade not to be rep players.
As others have observed - HJ - 18 of the HH 15's squad were rep players. When this happened against Randwick apparently the SJRU's response was well since 18 of the U15s were rep players there was every chance the under age subs would be rep players.
Sounds to me as if someone needs to brush up on their admin law.

3.6 TRANSFERABLE AND NON-TRANSFERABLE PLAYERS
(A) All Registered Players will be designated as either Transferable or Non-Transferable.
(B)All Representative Players are designated as Non-Transferable players and can only play in their nominated Team and Age Group unless otherwise permitted by the Competition Manager. All Representative Players must be nominated in their Club’s highest graded team in the corresponding age group. The player must play in their chronological age group or the age group above. There is no age dispensation for Representative Players.

If Mosman/HH was "otherwise permitted" then the imposed forfeit is highly suspect and might not survive a proper legal challenge - there is apparently no internal (to the SJRU) right of appeal.
Whatever the strict legal position may be Mosman/HH have accepted the decision.

 

[Quick Hands]

Otherwise permitted is a lovely term isn't it. Another classic example of the SJRU writing their rules with lots of nice loopholes to be taken advantage of. Sigh.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The absence of any control on the competition manager's discretion - subject to other rules directing her/him how to exercise it (which I have not investigated) - is why a legal challenge may well have some legs.
It probably won't garner much sympathy but the management of the team crossed the T's and dotted the i's. The kids thought that they had made a grand final and are denied playing in it by a flawed process - presided over by adults.
Such is junior rugby in this city.

 

[In the lineout]

True, do feel for the kids to be honest

 

[Quick Hands]

The absence of any control on the competition manager's discretion - subject to other rules directing her/him how to exercise it (which I have not investigated) - is why a legal challenge may well have some legs.
It probably won't garner much sympathy but the management of the team crossed the T's and dotted the i's. The kids thought that they had made a grand final and are denied playing in it by a flawed process - presided over by adults.
Such is junior rugby in this city.

The organisational is so dysfunctional and bureaucratic they seem to have completely forgotton what it's all about.

A weak organisation and pockets of unscrupulous adults willing and able to take advantage for their own ends. (I speak generally, not of the specific example)

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The organisational is so dysfunctional and bureaucratic they seem to have completely forgotton what it's all about.
<snip>

What it's all about? http://www.juniors.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/2007_Constitution.pdf

From the most current (but outdated) approved version of the SJRU Constitution, it's supposed to be about:
The Union is empowered to grow, develop, foster, regulate, promote and control all Junior rugby union within the Sydney metropolitan area and such other areas as may be determined from time to time.

The 2010 Garling Report into Junior Rugby in Sydney dedicated 6 of its 19 pages to a review of the SJRU constitution http://www.nswrugby.com.au/Portals/3/Documents/Juniors/2010/Garling Report-2010.pdf.

Mr Garling observed that:
As presently structured SJRU is not in a position to claim to control Junior Rugby because it is only relevant to about half of the Junior Rugby players in the Sydney Metropolitan area because the public and private schools represent and control the other half.


There was almost total agreement that the levels of organisations within Junior rugby was to great and the structure too complex for what is essentially a simple process.



All the clubs want is to play in a competition that is well organised and as far as possible fair.
Everyone was opposed to the creation of “Super” teams.
Everyone was opposed to those coaches and managers who deliberately have their teams play in an inferior grade.

In my personal experience there will in any sport always be the coach or manager who wants to achieve glory through his or her son’s success and will attempt to achieve that with intensity. That desire has to be managed.

Mr Garling concluded that the objective of the SJRU should be:
“To organise competitions for Junior Rugby Players from Village Clubs within the Greater Sydney area and to regulate and manage those competitions.”

That report was prepared in 2010.

4 years later, while there have been some internal organisational changes within SJRU, it would appear that there have been no alterations to the SJRU Constitution approved under clause 14.0 of the Constitution, despite Mr Garling's view that "I am not certain that the current Constitution complies with the requirements of the Associations Incorporations Act 2009 (NSW) and that needs to be considered."

So is the SJRU either organising, regulating and managing competitions for Junior Village Club Players within Sydney, or growing, developing, fostering, regulating, promoting and controlling Junior Rugby Union?




I found this clause in "the old" (current) Constitution to be interesting.

23.1. The constitution or Memorandum and Articles of Association of each Affiliate and any rules and/or regulations made there under, shall be in such terms as are approved by the Committee.

23.3 The Committee may, at any time, require any Affiliate to alter, add to or repeal any provisions of its Constitution, rules or regulations or Memorandum and Articles of Association in such manner as the Committee may direct.

Wonder when The Committee exercised their powers under clause 23.1 or 23.3?
Have they even reviewed any constitutions, or Memorandum and Articles of Association, and rules and/or regulations of any of the approximate 55 Affiliates they have to ensure that they are such terms as are approved by The Committee?

 

[Druid]

Has anyone heard about the HH v Raptors U16 QF yesterday? I have been informed HH turned up with 7 "new" players that were not on the sign on sheet, no photo ID...and that this was all cleared by the Competition Manager!

Now its just a phone call I received today so won't pass judgements just yet..however, if this is the case then the junior rugby really has dropped to very sad levels

The question to me is why does a team which has played all year and rightly made the finals, feel the need to completely change this team when they play the finals. If these "7" boys played throughout the year they would have qualified in their own right. Why the need just for this game to play "7" new players and why should the SJRU allow a different team to run on the field than played all year?

 

[LucyPomPom]

These seven boys had qualified in their own right. The changes happened because they had insufficient players on the day. To be crystal clear the issue was not with the three 16B players but with the four under 15 rep players who had been allowed to play in this team earlier in the season by SJRU but apparently should not have played last Sunday despite the Comp Manager giving her prior approval before the game. The inconsistencies here are rampant. Anyway both clubs have accepted the decision and moved on and good luck to the Raptors boys for Sunday.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

This is because of the tension between school and village rugby at age 16.
How many 16A's teams will there be next year?
And will 15's suffer because, for some, 15's used to be played to get grandfathered for 16's - with that gone and constant evidence of the struggle to field 16s teams I expect to see some drop off in 15s numbers for 2015 as well.
The law of unintended consequences requires care in what one wishes for.

 

[Druid]

These seven boys had qualified in their own right. The changes happened because they had insufficient players on the day. To be crystal clear the issue was not with the three 16B players but with the four under 15 rep players who had been allowed to play in this team earlier in the season by SJRU but apparently should not have played last Sunday despite the Comp Manager giving her prior approval before the game. The inconsistencies here are rampant. Anyway both clubs have accepted the decision and moved on and good luck to the Raptors boys for Sunday.

Was just asking the question. I know in our club some of our teams run close on numbers during the season we may get exemptions on playing players up for a couple of games etc. However, the SJRU are very clear that all players previously given exemption need to re-apply for the finals series even if they have previously been given exemptions during the regular season.

 

[Druid]

This is because of the tension between school and village rugby at age 16.
How many 16A's teams will there be next year?
And will 15's suffer because, for some, 15's used to be played to get grandfathered for 16's - with that gone and constant evidence of the struggle to field 16s teams I expect to see some drop off in 15s numbers for 2015 as well.
The law of unintended consequences requires care in what one wishes for.

Like always, we can continue to subsidise the club system, have people look at the numbers bolstered by Private Schools and agree everything is rosy. Or maybe look at the reality of the situation and instead of still doing favours in the club competition for Private School kids actually address the real problem here which is to diversify the player base and attract more non-provate school kids and broaden & grow the base of Rugby. Unless we broaden the base the title of this forum will continue.