Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Jaghond]

"why doesn't the NSWJRU have a seat on the board if schools do ? who looks after our interests aside from G&GR"
FatCat

FC

IIRC - Schools and NSWJRU "take it in turns" to represent Junior/Schools rugby on the Board.

2 year stints, I seem to recall. I believe that John Spana, as President of NSWJRU, was on the Board before GG. ( Or "G Squared", to those who know & love him !)

I think his stint ends this year ?? So presumably, someone from NSWJRU gets the spot next year.

As to your other queries, I will leave them to those far more knowledgable than I !

Too many meetings with no resulting actions since the Garling Report tabled with NSWRU - so probably no change in the foreseeable future, and everyone will therefore continue to suffer the muti layered anachronism that is Junior Rugby in NSW !

 

[Fat Cat]

not so confused anymore, just disappointed

 

[Gary Owen III]

we're both right - max for a game is 70, for a day in tournament play it's 90 - cheers MOTH

thanks MOTH

 

[Quick Hands]

Very good questions FC.

From my reading of the Garling report the NSWJRU has 2 members SJRU & CJRU. I'd have thought that the NSWRU would have a seat at the NSWRU table - apparently not

It would appear from the above list that no-one represents the junior clubs on the NSWRU. I assume from the Youth Director title that Mr Garland is the go to man for U/18 rugby (at least in the eyes of NSWRU). Given the body he represents, it gives a pretty good insight into the thinking at NSWRU.

Given that the schools have a representative on the board and NSWJRU don't, isn't it odd that schools can't be asked to pay the levy but junior clubs can?

(Yes I realise that NSW has absorbed the levy for this year, but it's the principle)

Change appears to be stymied by the structure of rugby in this state, which Garling attempted to remedy, but NSWRU decided not to go with many of his recommendations. Are we surprised?

EDIT: Didn't see Jaghond's post above until after I posted. It seems a little strange to me that the schools and juniors alternate, given that we're always being told how independent the schools are and that they can't be made to do this or that.

 

[Gary Owen III]

Very good questions FC.

From my reading of the Garling report the NSWJRU has 2 members SJRU & CJRU. I'd have thought that the NSWRU would have a seat at the NSWRU table - apparently not

It would appear from the above list that no-one represents the junior clubs on the NSWRU. I assume from the Youth Director title that Mr Garland is the go to man for U/18 rugby (at least in the eyes of NSWRU). Given the body he represents, it gives a pretty good insight into the thinking at NSWRU.

Given that the schools have a representative on the board and NSWJRU don't, isn't it odd that schools can't be asked to pay the levy but junior clubs can?

(Yes I realise that NSW has absorbed the levy for this year, but it's the principle)

Change appears to be stymied by the structure of rugby in this state, which Garling attempted to remedy, but NSWRU decided not to go with many of his recommendations. Are we surprised?

EDIT: Didn't see Jaghond's post above until after I posted. It seems a little strange to me that the schools and juniors alternate, given that we're always being told how independent the schools are and that they can't be made to do this or that.

I believe that Geoff Ferris is the new Youth director replacing GG.

 

[Kenny Powers]

NSWRU board

Rob MILLNER Sydney Rugby Union
Nick FARR-JONES Chairman, Independent Director
Tim GAVIN President
Arthur LAUNDY Independent Director
Michael MATHERS Vice President
Geoff GARLAND Youth Director (NSW Schools Rugby Union)
Paul TIMMINS NSW Suburban Rugby Union
Bruce WORBOYS Executive Director
Peter VEENSTRA NSW Country

somebody said before if you are not a member of an organisation you do not have to contribute to it.

And if you are a member and stick your hand in your pocket you have representation or a vote.

The NSW Schools Union when you look at their website main purpose is; representative rugby and I would say 99% of boys playing thru school would receive no benefit from the NSW Schools Union, do not register with the ARU and are not insured by the ARU. Raises even more questions.

Another interesting thing when you look at the background of the Board

Rob Millner - Newington College old boy
Nic Farr Jones - Shore parent and Newington College old boy
Tim Gavin - Scots College old boy
Arthur Landy - St Joseph's College old boy
Michael Mathers - Shore School old boy
Paul Timmins - St Joesphs College old boy
Peter Veenstra - Kinross Wallari school teacher retired
.

 

[Man on the hill]

And if you are a member and stick your hand in your pocket you have representation or a vote.

The NSW Schools Union when you look at their website main purpose is; representative rugby and I would say 99% of boys playing thru school would receive no benefit from the NSW Schools Union, do not register with the ARU and are not insured by the ARU. Raises even more questions.

Another interesting thing when you look at the background of the Board

Rob Millner - Newington College old boy
Nic Farr Jones - Shore parent and Newington College old boy
Tim Gavin - Scots College old boy
Arthur Landy - St Joseph's College old boy
Michael Mathers - Shore School old boy
Paul Timmins - St Joesphs College old boy
Peter Veenstra - Kinross Wallari school teacher retired
.

Throw in Bouncing Bill Pulver & Mr Hawker & Shore wins.

 

[Newbie]

Tried to enrol my son (of an undisclosed age) into his local rugby club last week only to see him disappointed that this club will not have a team in his age group to accommodate him.

Worse still, the nearest two other clubs are also looking like they won't be able to accommodate him either! Lack of numbers gents!

My lad is still far off that dreaded 16 and over (near extinct) age bracket!

We have issues because to me it seems as if junior rugby is going out the door backwards. It will be interesting to see what the SJRU participation numbers are going to be like this year!

 

[Quick Hands]

Another interesting thing when you look at the background of the Board

Rob Millner - Newington College old boy
Nic Farr Jones - Shore parent and Newington College old boy
Tim Gavin - Scots College old boy
Arthur Landy - St Joseph's College old boy
Michael Mathers - Shore School old boy
Paul Timmins - St Joesphs College old boy
Peter Veenstra - Kinross Wallari school teacher retired

Kenny, I think this says more about junior rugby in Sydney than the other 387 posts on this thread combined.

And we wonder why the powers that be don't understand the issues that village clubs face.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

To be fair to the "private schools have too much influence in rugby" club members , someone did the numbers a wee while back.

I can't be stuffed finding it but it went along the lines of AAGPS have 5000 rugby players, CAS have 3000 rugby players, ISA have 3000 players players. All up 11000 rugby players in the 12-17 year old age group.

How many registered players does SJRU have playing in the U13 to Under U18 Age group?

Riverview alone has about 700 - 900 rugby players. A "big" SJRU Village club has around 300 players, most have between 100 and 200 players. As a SJRU village club, View compared to most other Village clubs would be similar to Jupiter vs Earth in a scale model of the Solar System.

Perhaps the NSW Schools should have some influence on the basis of numbers participating. At the moment without them, the future of rugby in NSW would be rather stuffed.

 

[Kenny Powers]

Perhaps the NSW Schools should have some influence on the basis of numbers participating. At the moment without them, the future of rugby in NSW would be rather stuffed.

Yes the private schools are nurturing a large number of players at little or no cost to the ARU or NSWRU they sit outside these organisation (other than the rep programs) and contribute minimal funds.

So following the flow of the almighty dollar as opposed to players you have to ask where has the SJRU and Country Junior representation gone.

The point about the Board is not necessarily that they run some great conspiracy in favour of the private schools but that they are drawn from such a narrow group. You could not say that it represents a 'broad church' of backgrounds and in turn thinking and challenging the status quo. It's a problem with a lot of Rugby Boards in Australia, their composition is very different from other major sporting organisations in Australia.

- where's the TV Broadcasting expert for negotiations
- where is the strategy and management expert without the rugby background to challenge the old thinking
- where's the female point of view, they are 50% of the population
- where's the expert in marketing and promotion
- pay them for their professional services required in a professional game

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^^ I like your questions and think I already know the answers. In the answers lie many of the problems.

 

[Man on the hill]

with schools - you guys keep muddying up the water. Schools offer sport to fulfil a curriculum obligation. And then recall, that it is rugby purely because of a chance of history.

If you follow the money trail, you will see that NSWJRU & SJRU along with Country, subbies & premiership all receive grants from NSWRU / ARU. I think the grant will far exceed the magnitude of the grants flowing the other way.

 

[Kenny Powers]

[/quote]
If you follow the money trail, you will see that NSWJRU & SJRU along with Country, subbies & premiership all receive grants from NSWRU / ARU. I think the grant will far exceed the magnitude of the grants flowing the other way.[/quote]






The money flows both ways with the levy now, yes the grants are larger than the levy.

The point is why wouldn't you have the juniors inside the tent, singing from the same song sheet.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

with schools - you guys keep muddying up the water. Schools offer sport to fulfil a curriculum obligation. And then recall, that it is rugby purely because of a chance of history.

Why do you say it is a chance of history?

 

[Quick Hands]

People are missing the point with schools.

Firstly, it's great that private schools invest so much time and money into rugby.

But is it good for rugby that almost the entire Board of the NSWRU are GPS old boys ?

Is it any wonder that they don't really get the issues facing village junior clubs?

Historically, schools and clubs operated parallel competitions run on Saturdays. There was very little cross over as games were played at the same time. This situation continued until about 2000 when MNZ moved most of their competitions to Sunday mornings. While this may not be the sole reason, this period has seen a steep decline in the number of boys playing village club rugby.

At the same time that we are told that schools are independent of rugby authorities and therefore ARU/NSWRU can't exercise much control over them, we find that the NSW Schools RU have a representative on the board of the NSWRU. Surely this is a case of having your cake and eating too? The $200 levy was the starkest example of this in action.

SJRU are in a very weak position IMO. They seem to have no representation at board level and their competitions have become almost entirely dependent on school players backing up and playing a second game on Sunday. This would not be a huge problem in itself if number of players and teams were growing, but they're not. In fact they are falling - more and more rapidly each year.

So SJRU have a choice - keep doing what they are doing (Sunday club rugby) and hope that they will achieve different results, or do something differently (return to Saturday rugby) and provide competitions for the boys who don't play school rugby. IMO they have to make a unilateral decision as giving clubs a choice will mean that many who have school players will take the soft option of playing Sundays so they don't have to go out and recruit.

The make-up of the NSWRU board and the views of many rugby people that rugby is a school based sport means that they can expect little sympathy, understanding or support.

 

[Quick Hands]

Why do you say it is a chance of history?

I assume he means that the traditional GPS sports reflect the world of 1893; rugby, cricket, rifle shooting, rowing and athletics. While rifle shooting may have slipped in status, the others are still the big 4, in terms of prestige anyway.

Rugby v soccer, cricket v basketball/water polo/tennis, athletics v swimming.

Had the AAGPS come into existence later, maybe we'd see different sports being played?

 

[I like to watch]

To be fair to the "private schools have too much influence in rugby" club members , someone did the numbers a wee while back.

I can't be stuffed finding it but it went along the lines of AAGPS have 5000 rugby players, CAS have 3000 rugby players, ISA have 3000 players players. All up 11000 rugby players in the 12-17 year old age group.

How many registered players does SJRU have playing in the U13 to Under U18 Age group?

Riverview alone has about 700 - 900 rugby players. A "big" SJRU Village club has around 300 players, most have between 100 and 200 players. As a SJRU village club, View compared to most other Village clubs would be similar to Jupiter vs Earth in a scale model of the Solar System.

Perhaps the NSW Schools should have some influence on the basis of numbers participating. At the moment without them, the future of rugby in NSW would be rather stuffed.

I read your stats about numbers,and I don't come to your conclusion that we would be stuffed without them.
I think we are stuffed because of them.
The game needs to diversify/broaden the base.
The ARU needs to expand on the JGS or whatever they call it.That should be the only pathway that attracts ARU funds.
Oz Schoolboys should be replaced with U18's.
Selection trials should not be based around School Associations,but on regions.
A kid from St Mary's should be the same chance of being selected as a boy from Scots or Joeys,that is not the case ATM.
Start picking them that way and watch the flood of talented kids moving to GPS Schools slow to a trickle.only then will the alternate pathway improve.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Oz Schoolboys should be replaced with U18's.

Are there that many boys under 18 playing rugby who are not at school?
The reason I put it like that is that teachers are actually perfectly trained to coach children. So even going to u18s would not take the school influence out the issue.
If you try to use coaches other than school teachers to coach all the rep teams, state teams etc it will either cost a bomb or you'll get the quality of coach that $0 buys.

Why do you say it is a chance of history?

I assume he means that the traditional GPS sports reflect the world of 1893; rugby, cricket, rifle shooting, rowing and athletics. While rifle shooting may have slipped in status, the others are still the big 4, in terms of prestige anyway.

Rugby v soccer, cricket v basketball/water polo/tennis, athletics v swimming.

Had the AAGPS come into existence later, maybe we'd see different sports being played?

That's why I asked: that fails to explain why all the other school organisations, some of whom are younger than me, chose to play rugby.
Did everyone just follow the GPS?

 

[I like to watch]

Changing it from Schoolboys to U18,changes the path to selection.
ATM 2 rounds of AAGPS games,followed by a semi opposed session in GPS3's gets too many a NSW jumper.
Selection in GPS 1's is virtually a guaranteed selection in the NSW side.
One starting player for NSW1's was not selected for further honours last year.
So basically,anyone lucky enough to play Kings in the first two rounds last year was a great chance to be selected for Oz Schools (both 50 point scorelines)
That is not a pathway,it's a birthright.