Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Shane Smeltz]

I have heard the same about the amalgamation of teams within Manly JRU and one particular Village club, Forest, is struggling to put out any team at all in the 13s and 15s whereas last year they did have 12s and 14s.

I can see more amalgamation here, perhaps with Wakehurst just down the road - - who have already amalgamated age groups over the last two seasons.

 

[Runner]

I understand that from registrations so far, that in every age group from 13s to opens in the Manly JRU will involve composite teams from one or more of the village clubs. This is my 3rd run through junior club rugby (4th if you count my playing days in the 70s) and each time I've been back it's structurally weaker. A traditional rugby area like Manly is struggling to put junior club teams on the field right down at 13s - I almost can't believe it.

If Sunday junior club rugby is working so well; Why is this so? (apologies to Julius Sumner-Miller)

The interesting thing about that numbers issue is where are they? Is there only one private school in the area with saturday rugby for the school.?

 

[Brainstrust]

Not sure if there are any club registrars on this thread, or someone who has access to the data, but I would be very interested in the stats of the bigger clubs, such as Lindfield, Lane cove , Wahroonga, on the North shore or anywhere else for that matter, what is the break down by age group of private school v non private school players, and what percentage of their top graded sides are on that basis. I think proposals to change the club games to Saturday etc should be considered in light of what that will do to the comps in totality. If the clubs are populated largely by non private school players then perhaps the ideas to accommodate more non private participation makes sense. I however suspect there would be next to no depth at all in an already shrinking comp if that's the road that's taken.

 

[Quick Hands]

Even though there is only 1 private school in the Manly area which plays Saturday rugby, there are a significant number who go to Shore, Alos, Scots, Riverview and also a few who go to Barker, Knox, Newington, Grammar etc.

The point still being these club amalgamations are now occurring at 13s whereas not so long ago it didn't happen until 16s. Sunday junior club rugby was brought in to solve this problem, but seems to have made it worse. It was originally pushed through by the Gordon clubs despite opposition from Manly and Warringah and it's not doing the very thing it was brought in to do.

Sunday juniors also means that it's impossible to clubs to try to recruit league players when the private schoolboys leave, as league is played on Sundays from 14s.

 

[Brainstrust]

Even though there is only 1 private school in the Manly area which plays Saturday rugby, there are a significant number who go to Shore, Alos, Scots, Riverview and also a few who go to Barker, Knox, Newington, Grammar etc.

The point still being these club amalgamations are now occurring at 13s whereas not so long ago it didn't happen until 16s. Sunday junior club rugby was brought in to solve this problem, but seems to have made it worse. It was originally pushed through by the Gordon clubs despite opposition from Manly and Warringah and it's not doing the very thing it was brought in to do.

Sunday juniors also means that it's impossible to clubs to try to recruit league players when the private schoolboys leave, as league is played on Sundays from 14s.

I take your point. I have said on previous posts that clubs also need to genuinely up their offering to attract more players. If your competing against loig etc for players then the clubs must offer a structured outcomes based program per age group. I could retire on how many times I have heard club officials roll out the comment " the boys just want a game of footy". Many of them are getting that through their school programs , which incidentally have improved dramatically over the last 5 years or so. If players ( parents) can see that playing club rugby offers their future wallaby a clear learning and development path, then they will be far more likely to commit. My position on this is pretty clear. If you keep doing the same thing and expect a different result, you are going to be very disappointed. SJRU need to collate the data of their demographic, seek comment from parents, coaches, rep programs, and club presidents. Once they have a clear picture of what is driving people away , and what may attract them back, then they can make the right changes. Any other approach will be purely a waste of time, and it sounds like they don't have much time to get it right.

 

[Jaghond]

Noting SS's comments at #201 above, where does this place the SJRU who have previosuly stipulated that they won't be allowing players to "migrate" to other club outside their designated area ?

Whilst I am not sure how they actually planned to police this, surely the opportuntiy of providing a team for boy to play in should be a significant consideration ? The desire to grow organically within club / district boundaries is admirable, but possible not quite ready to happen just yet, maybe ...?

I concur with some of the above correspondents - that amalgamations have been around for a long time, and whilst not quite as common in the U13's in recent times, there are examples from 14's and above that have been prevalent in the past.

The next "doosra" to discuss is what happens when players seek leave to exit their existing club team - which might not be in a poisition to continue in an A or B comp to play in the much previosuly maligned A competitions .... thereby potentially dooming their own local club team with the loss of a key player(s).......

Whilst it is very easy for people to come up with the many problems being faced (myself included) - trying to find a solution, or even part of a solution, is like trying to win Lotto ! It never happens to you, but you know someone who knows someone, who has. Maybe. It is extremely elusive - and may take a complete paradigm shift before something actually takes shape.

In the menatime, the poor old volunteers will keep slugging away to pay the ARU's $200 morning tea levy....

 

[Quick Hands]

One thing which puzzles me is why the Sunday junior club rugby needs to start at 10s? All these teams have been going strongly in 6s-9s on Saturday and then all of a sudden it's Sundays. I don't get it. Private school rugby is miniscule in 10s-12s so that can't really explain it.

As I've said a few times, if junior club rugby was going from strength to strength on Sundays, I wouldn't be questioning it, but it's not - in fact it seems to be going backwards. If we keep playing on Sundays, one can only expect the same downwards spiral to continue.

The only real hope that I have is that it seems that someone in at SJRU has got it and they are doing all they can to get Saturday rugby going again.

 

[Man on the hill]

Noting SS's comments at #201 above, where does this place the SJRU who have previosuly stipulated that they won't be allowing players to "migrate" to other club outside their designated area ?

I think you will find that the restriction on transfers had more to do with the creation of super teams than any other motive. In light of the current situation, I expect that SJRU will be open to alternative suggestions.

 

[Quick Hands]

Dear Clubs,



Attached please find a new form! No 43 requesting Dispensation to play out of District and the form for Dispensation request for Representative players.



Please note that SJRU is monitoring all registrations and identifying new registrations with particular notice taken of Representative players transferring and those moving Districts.



Dispensations will only be granted for extenuating circumstances.



If there is evidence of enticement/poaching of players for Representative purposes or for other reasons the Club may risk suspension from the Competition.



PLEASE ENSURE THAT ALL COACHES AND THOSE INVOLVED IN RECRUITMENT ARE AWARE OF THE IMPORT RESTRICTIONS PARTICULARLY AS THEY APPLY TO REPRESENTATIVE PLAYERS.





Please do not hesitate to contact me with any queries.



Regards,

Kerry

Kerry Brady SJRU Competitions Manager| NSW Rugby Union

Hot off the press

 

[Man on the hill]

One thing which puzzles me is why the Sunday junior club rugby needs to start at 10s? All these teams have been going strongly in 6s-9s on Saturday and then all of a sudden it's Sundays. I don't get it. Private school rugby is miniscule in 10s-12s so that can't really explain it.

As I've said a few times, if junior club rugby was going from strength to strength on Sundays, I wouldn't be questioning it, but it's not - in fact it seems to be going backwards. If we keep playing on Sundays, one can only expect the same downwards spiral to continue.

The only real hope that I have is that it seems that someone in at SJRU has got it and they are doing all they can to get Saturday rugby going again.

I know that a number of southern / eastern suburbs clubs opted for Sunday comps in the very young ages (even before the introduction of Sydney wide comps) for no other reason than they were tired of being belted by teams made up of physically larger players.

To them it was not a decision to play Sunday rugby per se, rather it was a decision to compete on a physically “level playing field” in a graded competition. That it was Sunday rugby was actually coincidental.
Australian Rugby at all levels is being hampered (destroyed?) by petty personal self-interest.

Maybe a few simple changes (all too late for season 2014) might be the salvation?
· Introduce Sydney wide graded competitions for Saturday up to at least U13
· Introduce locality / geographic based competitions for rankings at say “C”s and lower, “B”s if it’s a 3 grade age group,
· Combine all non-school players from U17 and older with premiership teams and offer Saturday afternoon colts – U21 1sts & 2nds, Colts U19 & Colts U17 – we just don’t have the player volume to justify so many different comps. If clubs are being obliged to merge to survive and remain viable and relevant, maybe the very competition need to look to a similar strategy!
· FINALLY, eliminate the self-serving decision making of clubs at SJRU level, and replace it with a strong leadership divorced of club politics – just like subbies have done! I.e. teams graded completely independently, not by someone with an interest in the outcome of the competition.

 

[Quick Hands]

MOTH, like is insufficient, we speak as one.

 

[Gary Owen III]

I know that a number of southern / eastern suburbs clubs opted for Sunday comps in the very young ages (even before the introduction of Sydney wide comps) for no other reason than they were tired of being belted by teams made up of physically larger players.

To them it was not a decision to play Sunday rugby per se, rather it was a decision to compete on a physically “level playing field” in a graded competition. That it was Sunday rugby was actually coincidental.
Australian Rugby at all levels is being hampered (destroyed?) by petty personal self-interest.

Maybe a few simple changes (all too late for season 2014) might be the salvation?
· Introduce Sydney wide graded competitions for Saturday up to at least U13
· Introduce locality / geographic based competitions for rankings at say “C”s and lower, “B”s if it’s a 3 grade age group,
· Combine all non-school players from U17 and older with premiership teams and offer Saturday afternoon colts – U21 1sts & 2nds, Colts U19 & Colts U17 – we just don’t have the player volume to justify so many different comps. If clubs are being obliged to merge to survive and remain viable and relevant, maybe the very competition need to look to a similar strategy!
· FINALLY, eliminate the self-serving decision making of clubs at SJRU level, and replace it with a strong leadership divorced of club politics – just like subbies have done! I.e. teams graded completely independently, not by someone with an interest in the outcome of the competition.

A few years ago they (SJRU) tried to create graded A and B grade Comps in Sunday rugby and then tried to do the geographic thing after that.

IIRC the issue was that once the A and B teams were taken out it left issues where there was only one or two teams left in some areas (eg MSZ and MWZ) and didn't leave the volume of teams for a geographical comp. So the travel became inevitable.

By extending the geographic priority to B comps then created the issue of lopsided / ungraded comps which was the reason that some teams left Sat rugby for in the first place.

I feel for them as they will be damned if they do or don't.

One improvement I see on the cards this year is the "grading day" that SJRU are running in mid March. Apparently they will hold an open grading meeting with each age group at a different time. Representatives from each club / age group are invited along to have input in what the initial gradings will be for 2014.

Clubs will be able to provide relevant input as to why they can or cant be in the A grade etc. But will also have the hard decisions thrown back at them ie whom the last 2 teams to join the A comp are to make an 8 team comp.

Will be much harder for a team to declare publicly that they cant be in the A comp and then go out and win by 50+ in the B's. Trophy hunters beware.

 

[Gary Owen III]

I know that a number of southern / eastern suburbs clubs opted for Sunday comps in the very young ages (even before the introduction of Sydney wide comps) for no other reason than they were tired of being belted by teams made up of physically larger players.

To them it was not a decision to play Sunday rugby per se, rather it was a decision to compete on a physically “level playing field” in a graded competition. That it was Sunday rugby was actually coincidental.
Australian Rugby at all levels is being hampered (destroyed?) by petty personal self-interest.

Maybe a few simple changes (all too late for season 2014) might be the salvation?
· Introduce Sydney wide graded competitions for Saturday up to at least U13
· Introduce locality / geographic based competitions for rankings at say “C”s and lower, “B”s if it’s a 3 grade age group,
· Combine all non-school players from U17 and older with premiership teams and offer Saturday afternoon colts – U21 1sts & 2nds, Colts U19 & Colts U17 – we just don’t have the player volume to justify so many different comps. If clubs are being obliged to merge to survive and remain viable and relevant, maybe the very competition need to look to a similar strategy!
· FINALLY, eliminate the self-serving decision making of clubs at SJRU level, and replace it with a strong leadership divorced of club politics – just like subbies have done! I.e. teams graded completely independently, not by someone with an interest in the outcome of the competition.

And MOTH I do like your U17's proposal - i have heard it mentioned a few times now and think that it must be done

 

[Fat Cat]

MOTH I think numbers wise you have to work around league. I also think 15's colts as well. A lot of players drift to league at these ages because of their rep program. A lot of players drift away from union because of a lack of one. The ARU has obviously identified these age groups already with the JGC.

 

[Man on the hill]

MOTH I think numbers wise you have to work around league. I also think 15's colts as well. A lot of players drift to league at these ages because of their rep program. A lot of players drift away from union because of a lack of one. The ARU has obviously identified these age groups already with the JGC.

The issue to address throughout these musings is Participation vs Performance.

With the new look bank busting Junior Gold Squads, the qualification starts this year at State Champs - U14 for the end of season 15s squads & U16s for the end of season 17s squads, hence the need to keep SJRU upto U15s & U16s – after that – swim in one pool with maybe 2 U17 district colts comps – performance & participation level (or perhaps subbies can have the participation players).

 

[Quick Hands]

I agree with your sentiment MOTH, but I suspect our player pool might be too low to support two separate competitions - at the moment anyway.

 

[Fat Cat]

I think participation and performance go hand in hand. With a performance pathway you keep players there and also attract others. By pulling the stronger players out of a local comp you create a more even comp where weaker players don't get bashed as much and enjoy their rugby more. With smaller village clubs depleted teams can be made up with 2 age groups joined. You also have the opportunity to keep competitions more local.

win win win (hopefully)

 

[Fat Cat]

Link to Alan Jones interview with Bill Pulver. Nothing has changed the captain of the ship (whom went to the Shore school and played with Sydney Uni), says throw more money at the problem that'll fix it and increase participation ! We're stuffed !!!!!

http://www.2gb.com/audioplayer/32166#.UwfrQnbxuUl

 

[Quick Hands]

That's the big problem with having former GPS boys almost exclusively running rugby, they view under-age rugby through the school prism rather than village clubs.

Certainly when Pulver, Hawker & Farr-Jones went to school, they would not have played junior club rugby beyond 12s, as it was all played on Saturdays at the same time as school rugby.

They don't have a first hand understanding of it beyond 12s (where things are still pretty good), so they don't really appreciate many of the issues.

 

[Fat Cat]

can someone tell me are the schools teams paying the $200 levy ?