CAS Rugby 2014

[BRUMBIEJACK]

I'm sorry if my game 'analysis' was not to your liking BJ.

As a very frequent visitor to this forum after the Saturday games I like to log on straight away to find out the results and hence posted the score of the Knox game as I was leaving the ground with a few comments to accompany (I was beaten to the post button however by elfster with the score.

If you looked at my very detailed revue of last weeks game you would see that I was not infant providing you bland information quickly, but was just providing the score with the intention of giving a detailed revue when I got home.

As for the game, I still find that most of the tries were scored against the run of play very much dominated by the dynamic knox forwards, also Connor Watsons experience was missed in defence. The 'lucky bounce' was when three knox backs clearly had a chip kick covered however the ball bounced back over all threes heads so the Waverley boy could fall over for a try.

If you don't want a quick score posted in future, let me know.

Btw if you'd told me 56-0 I would not have been surprised. 56-31 was a surprise which is why I'd be concerned if I were Knox's coaching staff…and I'm pretty sure that not all the 31 points would have been from lucky bounces or ref's penalties.

 

[Snort]

I am not talking about his footballing ability but it is important to learn from games like this that the crowd counts for nothing - he let it get to him today as the referee said - hope he learns from this and focuses on the game he shows a lot of potential in

Wayland had some discipline issues in Round One too. He's a terrific prospect but needs to learn to channel his aggression. You can only help your team if you stay on the field.

 

[Scythe]

True that we see the results of poor aggression management particularly in league !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Snort]

I'm not sure I can be too critical of Knox. 31 points is a lot to give away to any side and the coaches wouldn't be overjoyed. But in rounds one and two they have hammered the schools that finished first and second in the last two seasons. It's hard to ask for too much more.

So the question now becomes, can anyone stop them? I don't think it will be Trinity, but the Knox-Cranbrook game is starting to look very interesting.

 

[Elfster]

So the question now becomes, can anyone stop them? I don't think it will be Trinity, but the Knox-Cranbrook game is starting to look very interesting.

And it is good that Cranbrook is being talked about as one of the top sides this year.

 

[SonnyDillWilliams]

Yes cranbrook v knox round 1, at hordern, will be very interesting. While on one hand it is the battle of the cheque books ... There are lots more angles.

That mark giacheri (cranbrooks coach) is one big human being, but he is "cool calm collected' and his sidekick , former Aussie school boy dominic o'neil is much the same ... Looks like he is about to go out on his teak decked boat for the day

In contrast the knox coaching team ... Lead by Matt Williams ....They sure are yellers ... Guess they have to justify their paypackets

Actually a barker parent who has done a lot of refereeing shared with me that the knox coaches are the most rabid, and cranbrook parents are surprisingly the worst, leading with 'I am a solicitor'

Anyway the cranbrook v knox fixture of 31 May should be a good one ... With no doubt some venomous silvertails, trading barbs

Might even be a gyngell or a packer lurking in the crowd ... Did someone say wrestle?!

For what it is worth.... my money is on mr cool calm and collected, and boat boy o"Neil
Tallyho

 

[oarsome]

When was the last time that the Combined CAS XV I team beat the GPS team?

 

[The Guardian]

I'm not sure I can be too critical of Knox. 31 points is a lot to give away to any side and the coaches wouldn't be overjoyed. But in rounds one and two they have hammered the schools that finished first and second in the last two seasons. It's hard to ask for too much more.

So the question now becomes, can anyone stop them? I don't think it will be Trinity, but the Knox-Cranbrook game is starting to look very interesting.

Snort, love what you write and look forward to your reports, but for such a knowledgable person this is a huge statement.

See you at Summer Hill.

 

[Elfster]

Btw if you'd told me 56-0 I would not have been surprised. 56-31 was a surprise which is why I'd be concerned if I were Knox's coaching staff…and I'm pretty sure that not all the 31 points would have been from lucky bounces or ref's penalties.

Btw if you'd told me 56-0 I would not have been surprised. 56-31 was a surprise which is why I'd be concerned if I were Knox's coaching staff…and I'm pretty sure that not all the 31 points would have been from lucky bounces or ref's penalties.

Btw if you'd told me 56-0 I would not have been surprised. 56-31 was a surprise which is why I'd be concerned if I were Knox's coaching staff…and I'm pretty sure that not all the 31 points would have been from lucky bounces or ref's penalties.

I am writing a longer report but a few points in relation some previous analysis of mine. Which like this one is on a phone rather than a more studied effort on other devices.
My thoughts about the ref being harsh on Knox and soft on Waverley? The penalty ratio would have been around 3 to 1 to Waverley, with in my opinion a noticeable ref's application of a mercy rule when Knox were up 39 to 10. If the ref had felt the Knox side was transgressing to the extent of his penalty count he should have used the card much more so. There were three yellow cards, two to waverley one to Knox.
Of the 4 waverley tries the first was the most structured and off the back off 3 penalties. The second in the dying minutes required 6+ consecutive penalties within the Knox 10m to score. That try probably said more about the effectiveness of the Knox defence rather than waverley's attack. But with such a penalty count I am curious as to why no yellow card to Knox....

The third waverley penalty was an intercept. Though there was some good waverley work to realise the try the probable cause of the intercept was the offside waverley defence. The last try was in the dying minutes and was some individual brilliance to H Patterson. But it did require a good bounce of the ball. If it had gone another way Knox would have been on the attack in counter

I agree that the Knox coaching side would be concerned with the penalties and also a lack of clinical precision that defines great sides. Though I think raft if waverley was more evenly matched with Knox the penalty count would have been more even. I still think Knox has some improvement in them though. And inspite of letting in four tries their defence was good. And, perversely, the large penalty count against them showed a certain degree of discipline. It would have been easy and natural to get frustrated out there, but they kept it together rather well. But in terms of the penalty count I felt that the ref may have been a little goo trigger happy which adversely affected both sides. Waverley's strength is their ad hoc play and creativity. The ref hindered that a bit, but so too did Knox.
I am not sure about this waverley side. A side in progress. Though they were soundly beaten there may be players in the seconds. The current side spent too much time playing right rugby when a looser style may have been better. But that is a not point - the Knox backs were probably quite superior to their counterparts. Not often can you say that.
Knox should get better though. Definitely they are well drilled and can use the ball.
A final thought right now. The score line probably flattered waverley. Credit to them for not giving up, but this year could be a long one. But it is early days and application, effort and spirit can make a difference.

There was another point about whether the new coaching regime was worth it. I think yes. The previous coach though having some great results early is also the head of sport. Under his watch as 1st XV coach saw the reduction of rugby teams by around at least 25%. The home games support by the school dwindled, AFL introduced and 12/14/15/16A premiership sides faltered in the opens. A change was needed, if only to reinvigorate the rugby program up there. I think they needed a dedicated outside coach.

 

[BRUMBIEJACK]

I am writing a longer report but a few points in relation some previous analysis of mine. Which like this one is on a phone rather than a more studied effort on other devices.
My thoughts about the ref being harsh on Knox and soft on Waverley? The penalty ratio would have been around 3 to 1 to Waverley, with in my opinion a noticeable ref's application of a mercy rule when Knox were up 39 to 10. If the ref had felt the Knox side was transgressing to the extent of his penalty count he should have used the card much more so. There were three yellow cards, two to waverley one to Knox.
Of the 4 waverley tries the first was the most structured and off the back off 3 penalties. The second in the dying minutes required 6+ consecutive penalties within the Knox 10m to score. That try probably said more about the effectiveness of the Knox defence rather than waverley's attack. But with such a penalty count I am curious as to why no yellow card to Knox..

The third waverley penalty was an intercept. Though there was some good waverley work to realise the try the probable cause of the intercept was the offside waverley defence. The last try was in the dying minutes and was some individual brilliance to H Patterson. But it did require a good bounce of the ball. If it had gone another way Knox would have been on the attack in counter

I agree that the Knox coaching side would be concerned with the penalties and also a lack of clinical precision that defines great sides. Though I think raft if waverley was more evenly matched with Knox the penalty count would have been more even. I still think Knox has some improvement in them though. And inspite of letting in four tries their defence was good. And, perversely, the large penalty count against them showed a certain degree of discipline. It would have been easy and natural to get frustrated out there, but they kept it together rather well. But in terms of the penalty count I felt that the ref may have been a little goo trigger happy which adversely affected both sides. Waverley's strength is their ad hoc play and creativity. The ref hindered that a bit, but so too did Knox.
I am not sure about this waverley side. A side in progress. Though they were soundly beaten there may be players in the seconds. The current side spent too much time playing right rugby when a looser style may have been better. But that is a not point - the Knox backs were probably quite superior to their counterparts. Not often can you say that.
Knox should get better though. Definitely they are well drilled and can use the ball.
A final thought right now. The score line probably flattered waverley. Credit to them for not giving up, but this year could be a long one. But it is early days and application, effort and spirit can make a difference.

There was another point about whether the new coaching regime was worth it. I think yes. The previous coach though having some great results early is also the head of sport. Under his watch as 1st XV coach saw the reduction of rugby teams by around at least 25%. The home games support by the school dwindled, AFL introduced and 12/14/15/16A premiership sides faltered in the opens. A change was needed, if only to reinvigorate the rugby program up there. I think they needed a dedicated outside coach.

Thanks for your more expansive match report and, given I wasn't there your account is what we have to go on.

I suppose my issue with this whole CAS rugby thing is the sense that there appears to be two competitions within the competition. Those schools with a lot of money that can pay for name professional coaches and the others who use teachers and old boys. If either Knox or Cranbrook win the title this year then many will think that it was the money for the professional coaching that won it for them, and that this is what money and parents who are happy that funds are spent this way can do. This would be a shame given that I am sure that both schools have good players who have come through the school from Year 7 and may well have won it regardless of who coached them.

On your other issue I don't quite understand the causal link between paying for an ex-international coach and rugby blooming again at Knox. Interest in rugby is generated an many ways and you don't necessarily need to open the chequebook to do it. Many things are simply cyclical. Waverley for instance goes down to the 13Gs this year (which means more than half the year is playing rugby) but who coaches the 1sts had nothing to do with it. In fact the boys quite liked the idea that their Year 8 or 9 maths teacher taught during the day and also coached the 1sts after school (he's still teaching maths but is now coaching the 15As). Year 11 by contrast has always been a big soccer-playing year which is one of the reasons (but by no means the only reason) why this year the Opens are weaker than usual. Waverley also introduced AFL and has about 100 less kids in each year's intake compared to Knox so we face the same pressures and our challenges (given far smaller intakes) could be considered greater in keeping rugby alive than at Knox.

My fundamental problem with the way that this professional coaching issue has crept into the richer schools is that it means they have turned the coaching job into a business transaction. Achieve these KPIs or we'll hire somebody else. In return, coaches who are contracted are just as happy to be coaching (insert name here) as (insert name here). Teacher/coaches are invested in the school and the individuals, rather than simply the outcomes because they see the boys (which is what the players are) as something more than just a rugby player and therefore interact with them, and hopefully mentor them in completely different way than highly paid professional coaches would.

Then again, perhaps that's the socialist in me that hopes the CAS rugby scene is a level playing field and that everyone could just see who comes in the door in Year 7 and the odd additions through people who move into the area along the way, have a good teacher coach the 1sts and let the best team win. I'm getting the impression that this still only applies at Waverley and St Aloysius.

 

[jimbellows]

The truth of the matter is that Knox played badly. The referee did not help either side, he was underwhelming in the extreme!

The Knox coach will no doubt be all over what is a talented team which should have put away Waverley by 70 points. They were however uniquely selfish and failed to commit numbers to the rucks when needed. The 2 may run well but he contributes little other extra. This is the same for others who along with him will not pass ( especially also including todays 13 ) leaving overlap players stranded whilst they lose the ball or give away penalties. sw57 is clearly related to or works for the parents of players who produce perpetual "blinders" in his eyes but strangely no one else is privy to them, this undermines the quality and authenticity of his reports. Truthfully the 9 and 10 are very weak. The side takes a step forward when either are replaced. The 15 had a good game this week running well through a leaky defence. Others did the graft, both second rowers, the 6 and the 8 did what they could in the mess, creating opportunities for others to score . Watson should be marked down for creating a disruption in the form a backline reshuffle in deciding to play for the Roosters, bearing in mind how well Knox have treated him. But in the end he probably chose well as he would have received no ball anyway.

Knox will put away Cranbrook if they hold their nerve, listen to their coach, play to their strengths and of course kick well. If they don't play as a team and produce the sub - par rubbish of today they will go down badly. Perhaps it was the distraction of the Gala Day nonsense which detracted from the rugby as a whole, or coming off the heights of playing and beating Barker, one hopes so. In that vein how infantile is it to express disgust at the Barker performance today? They are plagued with injury presently. In the final run in with all hands on deck, don't be surprised if the beat Knox or Cranbrook later in the year. Knox beat them in their dream year , they can do it as well, without big names or fanfare.

 

[rtd32]

Highly doubt??? No biggie but indeed the boys in white were victorious that day in somewhat of an upset. Anyway, six years on it should be a good clash - hopefully updates come thru from the GAGR faithful present.

I'm pretty sure that Knox and Barker played each other in the final round for the plume shield having both gone through undefeated that year. I recall because of my bitter disappointment of the standard of rugby played by barker after such a big hype for the game

 

[smokinjoe]

Thanks for your more expansive match report and, given I wasn't there your account is what we have to go on.

I suppose my issue with this whole CAS rugby thing is the sense that there appears to be two competitions within the competition. Those schools with a lot of money that can pay for name professional coaches and the others who use teachers and old boys. If either Knox or Cranbrook win the title this year then many will think that it was the money for the professional coaching that won it for them, and that this is what money and parents who are happy that funds are spent this way can do. This would be a shame given that I am sure that both schools have good players who have come through the school from Year 7 and may well have won it regardless of who coached them.

On your other issue I don't quite understand the causal link between paying for an ex-international coach and rugby blooming again at Knox.

The Cranbrook 1stXV coach is a teacher at the school
Your comments on a professional coach do not and have never applied to Cranbrook.

 

[Elfster]

On your other issue I don't quite understand the causal link between paying for an ex-international coach and rugby blooming again at Knox. Interest in rugby is generated an many ways and you don't necessarily need to open the chequebook to do it. Many things are simply cyclical. Waverley for instance goes down to the 13Gs this year (which means more than half the year is playing rugby) but who coaches the 1sts had nothing to do with it. In fact the boys quite liked the idea that their Year 8 or 9 maths teacher taught during the day and also coached the 1sts after school (he's still teaching maths but is now coaching the 15As). Year 11 by contrast has always been a big soccer-playing year which is one of the reasons (but by no means the only reason) why this year the Opens are weaker than usual. Waverley also introduced AFL and has about 100 less kids in each year's intake compared to Knox so we face the same pressures and our challenges (given far smaller intakes) could be considered greater in keeping rugby alive than at Knox.

My fundamental problem with the way that this professional coaching issue has crept into the richer schools is that it means they have turned the coaching job into a business transaction. Achieve these KPIs or we'll hire somebody else. In return, coaches who are contracted are just as happy to be coaching (insert name here) as (insert name here). Teacher/coaches are invested in the school and the individuals, rather than simply the outcomes because they see the boys (which is what the players are) as something more than just a rugby player and therefore interact with them, and hopefully mentor them in completely different way than highly paid professional coaches would.

At this stage I don't think that Rugby is necessary booming at Knox. Like many schools there are additional options for the kids that weren't there previously. Soccer (or football as they like to call it) has become more popular and acceptable. I think AFL has made these schools targets and have been quite vigorous in sewing up AFL programs. There is also a changing demographic in some schools that is making a difference. On top of all this there seems to be a studied indifference by the ARU in any junior development.

At Knox the head of the of the sports program was also the coach of the firsts. The sports program at Knox seems to be having as many sports as possible to cater for the students. There was almost a conflict of interests there for then coach. The current arrangement seems to be more sensible as there is now a coach that is purely focussed on Rugby rather than also overseeing the total sports program.

It is perhaps a bit of a pity that there is no longer the prevalence of teacher/ coaches at the schools. I can remember my days in the F's through to the 7's having various science, maths and english students. But even back in the dim dark days of my time the coaches of the senior sides were quite specialist.

One aspect of the coaching may also be due to the changing demographics of the teaching staff as well. Not all the staff have the skills nor interest in coaching Rugby. Unfortunately times have changed and with the onset of professionalism and corporatism at all levels and in most places, we may be seeing the onset of more external/ professional coaching arrangements.

 

[Lee Grant]

Cranbrook pretty solid across the park with good line speed shutting Barker down whenever they had the ball and Barker had plenty of ball.

Smoking - do you remember who scored the last Cranbrook try?
.

 

[smokinjoe]

Smoking - do you remember who scored the last Cranbrook try?
.

Winger - max Rodoczy
Set up by fly-half Sam Renton

 

[Artbeet]

Winger - max Rodoczy
Set up by fly-half Sam Renton

A good performance by the Cranbrook team with very solid defense. The game was ruined as a spectacle by some ridiculously pedantic refereeing. This commenced within the first few minutes when the Cranbrook No. 7 was sinned binned for repeat infringements - quite unbelievable. This type of self promoting decision making went on through the whole game and really took away from the spectator experience. When will they learn that the game is in trouble and decisions made on inconsequential events will drive crowds away from the game.

 

[SonnyDillWilliams]

A good performance by the Cranbrook team with very solid defense. The game was ruined as a spectacle by some ridiculously pedantic refereeing. This commenced within the first few minutes when the Cranbrook No. 7 was sinned binned for repeat infringements - quite unbelievable. This type of self promoting decision making went on through the whole game and really took away from the spectator experience. When will they learn that the game is in trouble and decisions made on inconsequential events will drive crowds away from the game.

Fair dinkum ... So tired of people criticising referees... Everyone is an expert. That referee was fine... If you could do better ... Go do the course. At the end if the day, without the referee, there is no game.

Between the criticism of referees and people making abusive remarks re schoolkids ... And 99% of the time it is coming from someone that never played the game very well or makes no contribution of their time.

As the say, have a look at yourself!!

 

[Snort]

Snort, love what you write and look forward to your reports, but for such a knowledgable person this is a huge statement.

See you at Summer Hill.

Sadly not - I'll be overseas.

But is it really that huge a call? Trinity has done well so far this season but has beaten the two sides most likely to finish fifth and sixth, while Knox has thumped the two schools that finished first and second in each of the last two season. Trinity can win, I think, but you'd have to say Knox had shown better form throughout the season. Still, it should be a great game - let's hope both teams are at or near full strength.

 

[Snort]

Fair dinkum . So tired of people criticising referees. Everyone is an expert. That referee was fine. If you could do better . Go do the course. At the end if the day, without the referee, there is no game.

I agree with this. The truth is that the overall standard of refereeing in the Associated Schools 1st XV competition in the last few years has not been great. But they do their best, and are unbiased and fair. There is simply no point complaining about it.