CAS Rugby 2014

[BRUMBIEJACK]

Interesting observation and I agree with the structure vs lack of structure argument. It means you can put teams to the sword when you've got the cattle to do so, but if you don't then the lack of structure will kill you.
One other thing that I would add to the Christian Brother/Surfer dude culture impacting on the rugby is the fact that most of the boys are from the Shire or the beaches from Maroubra north which means that many of them come from a rugby league background where individual skills and running with the ball get drilled into them - converting to rugby's more team-oriented requirements and the need to recycle the ball also requires a bit of coaching out of/into them.

 

[Chris Jones]

Early CAS firsts and seconds predictions chaps?

 

[Scythe]

Early CAS firsts and seconds predictions chaps?

I think prior to his injury smeardon from barker was a shoe in for CAS 10 however his Cranbrook counterpart is doing a lot to prove his worth as well


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[BRUMBIEJACK]

At this stage I don't think that Rugby is necessary booming at Knox. Like many schools there are additional options for the kids that weren't there previously. Soccer (or football as they like to call it) has become more popular and acceptable. I think AFL has made these schools targets and have been quite vigorous in sewing up AFL programs. There is also a changing demographic in some schools that is making a difference. On top of all this there seems to be a studied indifference by the ARU in any junior development.

At Knox the head of the of the sports program was also the coach of the firsts. The sports program at Knox seems to be having as many sports as possible to cater for the students. There was almost a conflict of interests there for then coach. The current arrangement seems to be more sensible as there is now a coach that is purely focussed on Rugby rather than also overseeing the total sports program.

It is perhaps a bit of a pity that there is no longer the prevalence of teacher/ coaches at the schools. I can remember my days in the F's through to the 7's having various science, maths and english students. But even back in the dim dark days of my time the coaches of the senior sides were quite specialist.

One aspect of the coaching may also be due to the changing demographics of the teaching staff as well. Not all the staff have the skills nor interest in coaching Rugby. Unfortunately times have changed and with the onset of professionalism and corporatism at all levels and in most places, we may be seeing the onset of more external/ professional coaching arrangements.

Each school (and their resources and parental demands) is obviously different. So when you say there is no longer the prevalence of teacher/coaches at the schools I wonder what schools you are talking about, as there is certainly still a very large contingent of them at Waverley (along with recent old boys to fill gaps). I for one like the idea that at parent/teacher night you can talk about maths and cricket, or rugby and history or athletics and geography to the same teacher because many often do both. Give me a MIC over a Program Director any day.

They also serve as great role models for the boys, because they get to understand that sport and study do mix. You can explain algebra and demonstrate good tackling technique, or explain Greek democratic principles and how to execute a cover drive. Not as well as a professional coach, but as a role model for young boys, the mix is great. I for one am extremely glad that 'professionalism and corporatism' hasn't yet infiltrated all schools. There's plenty of time to become corporatised - school is about learning and developing societal attitudes and doing things for others for reasons other than financial remuneration.

 

[Scythe]

Each school (and their resources and parental demands) is obviously different. So when you say there is no longer the prevalence of teacher/coaches at the schools I wonder what schools you are talking about, as there is certainly still a very large contingent of them at Waverley (along with recent old boys to fill gaps). I for one like the idea that at parent/teacher night you can talk about maths and cricket, or rugby and history or athletics and geography to the same teacher because many often do both. Give me a MIC over a Program Director any day.

They also serve as great role models for the boys, because they get to understand that sport and study do mix. You can explain algebra and demonstrate good tackling technique, or explain Greek democratic principles and how to execute a cover drive. Not as well as a professional coach, but as a role model for young boys, the mix is great. I for one am extremely glad that 'professionalism and corporatism' hasn't yet infiltrated all schools. There's plenty of time to become corporatised - school is about learning and developing societal attitudes and doing things for others for reasons other than financial remuneration.

I think posts like these get this forum off track


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[RugbyFan14]

I think prior to his injury smeardon from barker was a shoe in for CAS 10 however his Cranbrook counterpart is doing a lot to prove his worth as well


from Barker i'd say Kirkby (halfback) and Burkett (blind side flanker) and Smerdon (flyhalf) for firsts. Hard to see others making either side....

From Knox Watson (outside centre), Widders-Leece (hooker),Van Zyl & Pierce. 12 is solid and could make seconds. Both locks could make seconds

Flankers and 8 will be hard fought with strong contenders from Knox, & Cranbrook, plus Burkett from Barker

 

[BRUMBIEJACK]

I think posts like these get this forum off track


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I think it's a worthwhile line of inquiry given that people want to find out who beat who and who is going to be good this year or next, when in reality the competition itself may no longer be a level playing field given what appears to be the increasing disparity in resources. Anyway I think I've said enough for a while so I'll butt out.

 

[Snort]

Early CAS firsts and seconds predictions chaps?

Tough one this year, because there are not many certainties and there are heaps of credible contenders for back row spots in CAS 1sts.

Hooker should be Widders-Leece (K), a standout. McLennan (T) should be one prop, with the other spot up for grabs. In the second row, I like Filipo (T) and I have a suspicion that the selectors will put a back-rower in there - say, Makas (C). Back row - well, Burkett (B) should be there, and Summerhayes (C) and Van Zyl (K). But that's tough on Corias (T), Mahony (C) and Pierce (K). The halves should be Kirkby (B) and Smerdon (B), with Renton (C) at 10 if Smerdon is injured. I've seen no outstanding 12 this season, so I'm tempted to think the selectors might go for a positional shift and play either Paterson (W) or Vevers (A) there. Watson (K) is the outside-centre. I'd have Barkley-Brown (T) at full back, though he could play on the wing if the selectors went for someone else, such as Price (K). As for wingers - well, no-one has stood out this season. If there are to be surprises, they could come here. If Vevers (A) isn't in the centres, he could find himself on one wing. Bolters for the other place could include Radoczy (C) and Bindczus (K) - it's really wide open, I think.

So - shoot me down. No doubt I've got it all wrong.

 

[kazoom]

Yes interesting that Knox, in particular hasn't got more teams. Guessing they are like Shore, where I gather that for the first time ever Golf has been accepted as an official sport.

On one hand these schools like Shore and Knox have military-like structures, with sergeant majors, rigid rules and regulations . however when it comes to some things (ie sport) they seem happy to hand-out a lot of choice, to a generation that (going by my kids) demands it ..

Personally I am not a fan of giving too much choice to kids . but who am I to say .

In terms of rugby .. the structures at a Knox, reflect on the field . across all the age groups, you hear the coachs drilling in concepts with language like "hold our structure"

whereas Waverley which seems to have this part Christian brother, part surfer dude culture , has a "rabble" mentality

in terms of rugby, it's like this "mad dog" approach of fearless kids running at the line . only to be isolated by better structured teams

anyway makes for interesting contrasting styles . although in 2014 sounds like Waverley hasn't got the troops to successfully implement their brand of rugby

reckon Cranbrook will put 40 on Waverley this weekend, despite Waverley trying to use the "death valley" passion to make a match of it

You're using a broad brush by referring to Waverley's structure as being reduced to 'rabble' which infers the complete absence of any type of structure. They need more structure and time to gel as a team but you're referring to them as being 'dumb' and 'fearless'; the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.

 

[Scythe]

Tough one this year, because there are not many certainties and there are heaps of credible contenders for back row spots in CAS 1sts.

Hooker should be Widders-Leece (K), a standout. McLennan (T) should be one prop, with the other spot up for grabs. In the second row, I like Filipo (T) and I have a suspicion that the selectors will put a back-rower in there - say, Makas (C). Back row - well, Burkett (B) should be there, and Summerhayes (C) and Van Zyl (K). But that's tough on Corias (T) and Pierce (K). The halves should be Kirkby (B) and Smerdon (B), with Renton (C) at 10 if Smerdon is injured. I've seen no outstanding 12 this season, so I'm tempted to think the selectors might go for a positional shift and play either Paterson (W) or Vevers (A) there. Watson (K) is the outside-centre. I'd have Barkley-Brown (T) at full back, though he could play on the wing if the selectors went for someone else, such as Price (K). As for wingers - well, no-one has stood out this season. If there are to be surprises, they could come here. If Vevers (A) isn't in the centres, he could find himself on one wing. Bolters for the other place could include Radoczy (C) and Bindczus (K) - it's really wide open, I think.

So - shoot me down. No doubt I've got it all wrong.

I think most of these are on the money. Until I have seen Smerdon play again I don't want to rule out Renton

You are correct about the backs - however I don't see Vevers having the size to play the 12 position - so i think it is likely that he is left at 13 or indeed placed on one of the wings.

One thing I might suggest is Dainton (A) has been really good for Aloysius in a losing side. He however with his strong tackling ability and eagerness to commit could be an option at 12 for at least one half ???

 

[kazoom]

Interesting observation and I agree with the structure vs lack of structure argument. It means you can put teams to the sword when you've got the cattle to do so, but if you don't then the lack of structure will kill you.
One other thing that I would add to the Christian Brother/Surfer dude culture impacting on the rugby is the fact that most of the boys are from the Shire or the beaches from Maroubra north which means that many of them come from a rugby league background where individual skills and running with the ball get drilled into them - converting to rugby's more team-oriented requirements and the need to recycle the ball also requires a bit of coaching out of/into them.

To say that rugby league is a game lacking in structure is to admit you don't understand the game. Rather than clumsily claiming a superior structure exists in Rugby rather than League, you may acknowledge the fact that a lot of league kids can tackle and a lot of rugby kids can't tackle. The dominant tackle is coached in League and will help any budding rugby union player. Even a casual observer of both codes will concede that point.

It's true, a fair few of the Waverley boys are rugby league kids and not as experienced in rugby as some players from some other schools, but it's early; we'll see how they gel as a new team.

 

[10to12]

Tough one this year, because there are not many certainties and there are heaps of credible contenders for back row spots in CAS 1sts.

Hooker should be Widders-Leece (K), a standout. McLennan (T) should be one prop, with the other spot up for grabs. In the second row, I like Filipo (T) and I have a suspicion that the selectors will put a back-rower in there - say, Makas (C). Back row - well, Burkett (B) should be there, and Summerhayes (C) and Van Zyl (K). But that's tough on Corias (T) and Pierce (K). The halves should be Kirkby (B) and Smerdon (B), with Renton (C) at 10 if Smerdon is injured. I've seen no outstanding 12 this season, so I'm tempted to think the selectors might go for a positional shift and play either Paterson (W) or Vevers (A) there. Watson (K) is the outside-centre. I'd have Barkley-Brown (T) at full back, though he could play on the wing if the selectors went for someone else, such as Price (K). As for wingers - well, no-one has stood out this season. If there are to be surprises, they could come here. If Vevers (A) isn't in the centres, he could find himself on one wing. Bolters for the other place could include Radoczy (C) and Bindczus (K) - it's really wide open, I think.

So - shoot me down. No doubt I've got it all wrong.

Pierce at 7 and Summerhayes at 4??

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[Snort]

whereas Waverley which seems to have this part Christian brother, part surfer dude culture , has a "rabble" mentality. in terms of rugby, it's like this "mad dog" approach of fearless kids running at the line . only to be isolated by better structured teams. anyway makes for interesting contrasting styles . although in 2014 sounds like Waverley hasn't got the troops to successfully implement their brand of rugby

I'm not persuaded by this. In each of the last three seasons, Waverley finished second, and one of the hallmarks of the 1st XV's game was an incredibly disciplined pick-and-drive game in the forwards - which is the exact opposite of "fearless kids running at the line and getting isolated". And the back line was pretty slick in those seasons, too, with good operators like the older Paterson and O'Donnell. Both the backs and forwards played with plenty of structure.

What matters more than having a game plan is having the players who can execute it. Waverley happens to have a weaker than usual contingent of players this season. It happens. They'll bounce back.

 

[Snort]

Pierce at 7 and Summerhayes at 4??

That wouldn't be the worst idea. Whatever happens, I'm pretty certain that a back-rower will end up playing in the second row, because the selectors otherwise have only three spots for Burkett, Summerhayes, Makas, Mahony (C), Van Zyl, Pierce and Corias - every one of whom has a strong claim for selection.

 

[Chris Jones]

Tough one this year, because there are not many certainties and there are heaps of credible contenders for back row spots in CAS 1sts.

Hooker should be Widders-Leece (K), a standout. McLennan (T) should be one prop, with the other spot up for grabs. In the second row, I like Filipo (T) and I have a suspicion that the selectors will put a back-rower in there - say, Makas (C). Back row - well, Burkett (B) should be there, and Summerhayes (C) and Van Zyl (K). But that's tough on Corias (T) and Pierce (K). The halves should be Kirkby (B) and Smerdon (B), with Renton (C) at 10 if Smerdon is injured. I've seen no outstanding 12 this season, so I'm tempted to think the selectors might go for a positional shift and play either Paterson (W) or Vevers (A) there. Watson (K) is the outside-centre. I'd have Barkley-Brown (T) at full back, though he could play on the wing if the selectors went for someone else, such as Price (K). As for wingers - well, no-one has stood out this season. If there are to be surprises, they could come here. If Vevers (A) isn't in the centres, he could find himself on one wing. Bolters for the other place could include Radoczy (C) and Bindczus (K) - it's really wide open, I think.

So - shoot me down. No doubt I've got it all wrong.

I think most of these are on the money. Until I have seen Smerdon play again I don't want to rule out Renton

You are correct about the backs - however I don't see Vevers having the size to play the 12 position - so i think it is likely that he is left at 13 or indeed placed on one of the wings.

One thing I might suggest is Dainton (A) has been really good for Aloysius in a losing side. He however with his strong tackling ability and eagerness to commit could be an option at 12 for at least one half ???

Speaking of St Aloysius' losing side, although they lack a bit of heft up front, boy with the red head gear in the front row presents some promise with great technique and rather mobile for his size. Does need some beefing up though, anybody know his name?

 

[Snort]

One thing I might suggest is Dainton (A) has been really good for Aloysius in a losing side. He however with his strong tackling ability and eagerness to commit could be an option at 12 for at least one half ???

He could have a shot. Like I said, it's tough this year, because there are at least seven strong contenders for three back-row spots, while many of the backline positions seem to be up for grabs. I see Paterson as more a natural 12 than a 10, and size is certainly not an issue for him!

 

[Scythe]

Speaking of St Aloysius' losing side, although they lack a bit of heft up front, boy with the red head gear in the front row presents some promise with great technique and rather mobile for his size. Does need some beefing up though, anybody know his name?

Did he come on off the bench?

 

[Scythe]

He could have a shot. Like I said, it's tough this year, because there are at least seven strong contenders for three back-row spots, while many of the backline positions seem to be up for grabs. I see Paterson as more a natural 12 than a 10, and if size is certainly not an issue for him!

I think CAS in recent times has produced alot of quality fly halfs - look at Foley (A), Fay (C), J Deb (T) - this year is no exception. The plethora of options presents a positive dilemna for selectors.

 

[Chris Jones]

Did he come on off the bench?

No I don't believe so, pretty sure he started.

 

[kazoom]

It may have seemed that the Waverley 1sts left a game plan and any structure in the dressing sheds on Saturday, but the best laid plans can go astray when you're continually playing on the back foot.

The big mobile Knox forwards steamrolled the smaller Waverley pack and spoilt their chances of playing with any rhythm to keep possession and gain field position.

However, Waverley got into some sort of rhythm and eventually won the second half. A favorable penalty count did help but still, they posted the points on the board.

I think it's true that Waverley traditionally like to take advantage of broken play rather than sticking rigidly to structure, but they know they need that structure to maintain possession and gain field position to give themselves a chance to score points.

Any well coached young rugby league players know about game plans and structure, so they will have no trouble grasping the idea regarding playing rugby union. But learning to do it and putting it into practice may take some time.

It's probably true that Waverley may not be as strong this season as in the past and a strong rugby league influence exists in the team, but schools have lean years and strong years, so we'll see what happens.