CAS Rugby 2014

[david turner]

To invest in their program as cranbrook, Knox and Barker have done. This doesnt just have to come down to dollars from the school, a great intiative from Barker was to start the Barker Rugby Club that raises money for the kids coaching and development. I think a teacher of the school should manager the side (first xv) aided by outside coaches helping with structure, game plan, set piece and this should flow through the school

The rugby club, I think is a good idea.
You have to remember this is schoolboy footy, it seems appropriate to have at teacher at the respective schools coach the first XV teams. It's just in the spirit of the game. I noticed Knox last year, hired a professional international coach to coach under a salary of $100,000 for 2 years. In my opinion, that is an outrage. It seems unfair to other schools and almost a waste of money to hire a grown man to scream at boys.
Although, schoolboy rugby is traditionally an inter school competition and very entertaining. I find it strange when a school blows the competition between schools out of proportion.
Thoughts?

 

[david turner]

Can I make a modest proposal which might bring some sense to some of the discussion here? If you want to argue that Rugby is booming at a particular school (say, Cranbrook) or in horrible decline at another (say, Waverley), please do so by reference to at least a three-year time span and with an eye on the results at junior level as well as the 1st XV. It happens that this year, Cranbrook has an excellent group of players, and Waverley a relatively weak one. That just happens sometimes. Neither fact, in itself, is evidence of anything much.

Take Barker. I doubt that they are doing much this year that's all that different from the last two years (two premierships, 19 wins from 20 matches). This year's crop just isn't quite up to the standard of last year's. Now, if Barker don't win for another five years, then, sure, ask what went wrong. But one season is too small a sample size to mean anything at all about the general health of any school's Rugby programme.

Harry jones left is what happened.

 

[Snort]

just as a side note snort I was at Horden the day in 97 when Cranbrook beat Ryan Cross and Adam Friers Waverley First XV team. Its not always about the cattle.

Yes, Cranbrook got up 12-5 that day. I'm not quite sure what that proves, though. Waverley won its other four matches that season, 36-21, 41-10, 29-5 and 26-23. Cranbrook went on to lose to Knox and then (when playing for a share of the premiership in the last round) 12-18 to St Aloysius. So, over the course of the season, Waverley's edge in class won the title, and Cranbrook's ability to lift for the big match found its limits. What's certainly true is that (and I apologise for quoting yet another League coach, but this time it's Jack Gibson), nobody's scrapbook ever won a game of football.

 

[Snort]

Harry jones left is what happened.

Uh huh. But they won the year before without him, so that comment is just silly.

 

[Snort]

The rugby club, I think is a good idea.
You have to remember this is schoolboy footy, it seems appropriate to have at teacher at the respective schools coach the first XV teams. It's just in the spirit of the game. I noticed Knox last year, hired a professional international coach to coach under a salary of $100,000 for 2 years. In my opinion, that is an outrage. It seems unfair to other schools and almost a waste of money to hire a grown man to scream at boys.
Although, schoolboy rugby is traditionally an inter school competition and very entertaining. I find it strange when a school blows the competition between schools out of proportion.
Thoughts?

The whole point of a private school is to aim for excellence - academically, and in extra-curricular activities. There are boys in the Rugby programme at many schools who aspire to play professionally and who have the potential to do so. That is a legitimate career goal now that there are five professional franchises in Australia. So I see nothing wrong with having a professional coach work in a school programme - any more than I would think it unfair to have Art taught by a practising artist or music taught by a professional musician. Parents forking out huge fees (and they are huge) are entitled to expect high quality instruction in every aspect of school life.

 

[RugbyFan14]

The rugby club, I think is a good idea.
You have to remember this is schoolboy footy, it seems appropriate to have at teacher at the respective schools coach the first XV teams. It's just in the spirit of the game. I noticed Knox last year, hired a professional international coach to coach under a salary of $100,000 for 2 years. In my opinion, that is an outrage. It seems unfair to other schools and almost a waste of money to hire a grown man to scream at boys.
Although, schoolboy rugby is traditionally an inter school competition and very entertaining. I find it strange when a school blows the competition between schools out of proportion.
Thoughts?

I think the amateur era in rugby is long gone. These are elite schools offering huge professionally run co-curricular programs. If Knox choose to spend some of their sports budget on a professional rugby coach then good luck to them. I think they also have a high level soccer coach. They advertise the Knox Sports Academy as part of their value proposition to parents so some professional coaching is to be expected. Look at the swimming and diving program at Trinity, they choose to spend a lot of money there. Others might spend more resources on professional music instructors or drama instructors. I don't see why rugby should be exempt from specialist coaching input.

On a slightly different tack all the talk of schools developing players through their rugby programs is a bit over blown. Most of the top players are playing club and rep. This is where most of the elite player development takes place. Where you do see school programs come into their own is in the lower grades where most boys do not play club. I know at Barker for many of the boys their only rugby experience is at school. The teachers do some rugby coaching clinics to learn to coach and then hopefully develop these other boys to have a good time playing rugby with no expectation of making the 1st XV. This is where you see "traditional schoolboy rugby". The elite level is just that, elite.

 

[Rugbymaster66]

Tips this week from me:

Waverley vs aloys- a tight game with the double v to get there first win of the season

Trinity vs barker - barker to put 30+ on trinity

Knox vs cranbrook - heavyweights go to battle with surely the game of the round with Knox to upset cranbrook in a tight game

 

[Lee Grant]

Upset?

 

[BRUMBIEJACK]

The whole point of a private school is to aim for excellence - academically, and in extra-curricular activities. There are boys in the Rugby programme at many schools who aspire to play professionally and who have the potential to do so. That is a legitimate career goal now that there are five professional franchises in Australia. So I see nothing wrong with having a professional coach work in a school programme - any more than I would think it unfair to have Art taught by a practising artist or music taught by a professional musician. Parents forking out huge fees (and they are huge) are entitled to expect high quality instruction in every aspect of school life.

I have a few issues with this point of view. There are levels of professional coach and I would argue that Knox using an ex-international coach takes the kind of dollars that only a few other schools could afford. This type of professionalisation of sports programs at a few schools will eventually kill the CAS as a viable competition as schools like Barker and Knox which have much greater student numbers and financial resources wonder why they are streaking ahead of the other schools. I can only speak for Waverley but there is no way that we have access to the funds that this kind of 'professionalisation' demands.
The Waverley rugby club discusses weighty issues like who is manning the BBQ and what to do about the rat carcasses in the canteen (I said we should grind them up and serve them as Norwegian hamster burgers when Cranbrook visited but lost in a close vote). So simply having a supporter's club is not part of developing a rugby program.
The other issue about having professional coaches is that they are judged on results and, whereas teacher/coaches know they have a job at the end of the season and would be content to coach weak and strong years, if I were a professioanl rugby coach I'd be looking at where the weaknesses in Year 10 were and then 'suggesting' we look at the State U16s comp and offer music scholarships to a few centres, second rowers or wherever the shortfalls are. It is a slippery slope.

 

[WTF?]

The rugby club, I think is a good idea.
You have to remember this is schoolboy footy, it seems appropriate to have at teacher at the respective schools coach the first XV teams. It's just in the spirit of the game. I noticed Knox last year, hired a professional international coach to coach under a salary of $100,000 for 2 years. In my opinion, that is an outrage. It seems unfair to other schools and almost a waste of money to hire a grown man to scream at boys.
Although, schoolboy rugby is traditionally an inter school competition and very entertaining. I find it strange when a school blows the competition between schools out of proportion.
Thoughts?

Rumours are that if you double that figure you are far closer to the mark.

Although I must say there are arguments for and against only having teachers coach, the issue is some of the lower grades tend to have some fairly ordinary coaches who lack the skill to teach the boys.

 

[david turner]

Yes, Cranbrook got up 12-5 that day. nobody's scrapbook ever won a game of football.

Exactly right snort, that is why schools should stop hiring professional coaches, at the end of the day it all about the boys.

 

[david turner]

The whole point of a private school is to aim for excellence - academically, and in extra-curricular activities. There are boys in the Rugby programme at many schools who aspire to play professionally and who have the potential to do so. That is a legitimate career goal now that there are five professional franchises in Australia. So I see nothing wrong with having a professional coach work in a school programme - any more than I would think it unfair to have Art taught by a practising artist or music taught by a professional musician. Parents forking out huge fees (and they are huge) are entitled to expect high quality instruction in every aspect of school life.

That is so far wrong, private schools hire teachers for the best mark possible! Plain as day. Extra curricular is called extra-curricular for a reason it is an accompaniment along with the studies to ignite a sense of sportsmanship, teamwork and health amongst the students.

 

[Braveheart81]

That is so far wrong, private schools hire teachers for the best mark possible! Plain as day. Extra curricular is called extra-curricular for a reason it is an accompaniment along with the studies to ignite a sense of sportsmanship, teamwork and health amongst the students.

The first part is true, but clearly parents don't choose private schools purely for academic outcomes because at a lot of non-selective private schools there isn't a better academic outcome.

Parents are paying for the facilities, resources and opportunities provided across the board. Some of those involve sport.

It's a much better situation that schools are investing in the facilities and coaching to improve their sporting outcomes because it benefits the students far more than spending money on scholarships to bring in better sportsmen to improve results.

Hiring full time sporting coaches is no different from hiring full time teachers. Students will generally spend more hours a week with a particular sporting coach than a particular teacher.

 

[RugbyFan14]

That is so far wrong, private schools hire teachers for the best mark possible! Plain as day. Extra curricular is called extra-curricular for a reason it is an accompaniment along with the studies to ignite a sense of sportsmanship, teamwork and health amongst the students.

That may be true at some schools I don't know. Cannot believe it is true of all private schools (how do you know that?). At Barker these activities are called "co-curricular" because they are a core part of the offering. The school advertises an all round education, not a pure academic outcome. I sent my children there for the all around education and Christian values, network, lifelong friends etc. I know people for who the deciding factor has been the music or drama which are huge. I don't actually know anyone for whom rugby was the deciding factor.

And by the way all the schools have full time sports coaches - it's called the PE department. Many schools (including Waverley) offer PASS (Physical Activity and Sports Studies) in Year 9-12. So of course there are professional sports teachers.

Agree with Braveheart - better that schools invest in things like the Knox Sports Academy which benefits many students rather than spending the money on sports scholarships to buy titles.

 

[Snort]

That is so far wrong, private schools hire teachers for the best mark possible! Plain as day. Extra curricular is called extra-curricular for a reason it is an accompaniment along with the studies to ignite a sense of sportsmanship, teamwork and health amongst the students.

Maybe in 1898. Not now. If you're, say, Cameron Clark or Harry Jones, you're not trying to get into Medicine or Law - you're trying to get your first professional contract. Sport isn't, for an increasing number of boys, a healthy diversion between classes - it's a career path. Hence the increased "professionalism". It's really that simple. One Associated Schools headmaster told me a few years ago that he had boys who would never go near a University but wanted to play professional sport, and his school needed to help them achieve that just as it needed to help other boys become lawyers.

 

[Lee Grant]

Waverley and Cranbrook have sporting Facebook pages which have images we are permitted to use.

If people are aware of other schools who are so involved with Facebook, would they please provide a link?

Thank you
.

 

[sidelineview]

www.facebook.com/waverleysport

 

[Spieber]

Would be interesting to consider some of the players pre 2000's, if i remember correctly, Aloysius won the premiership in 1978, surely there were some players from that team worthy of a mention? I know Paul Rowland played fullback for Warringah 1st grade for years.

CAS teams that beat GPS in '78 - a handful of Aloys boys there.

Edit: Link included
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19780731&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

 

[Rugbymaster66]

Cranbrook 1st XV to have training run against Easts 1st colts tonight supposedly

 

[Snort]

CAS teams that beat GPS in '78 - a handful of Aloys boys there.

View attachment 4806

Yes, they ran all over GPS at Chatswood - Rick Goehner played out of his skin.

Strangely, though, that year the Associated Schools had a future Wallaby second-row (Peter Fitzsimons) and a future NSW prop (Dene Glasson) - yet neither of them made even the reserves' bench!