CAS Rugby 2013

[Man on the hill]

blah blah blah

My inability to referee myself does not magically negate my right to comment on the perfromance of a referee just like my physical inability to play anymore does not negate my right to comment on the game and performance of the players.

So of you go and became an accredited referee coach - problem solved!

 

[Man on the hill]

In the forum rules post Scarfman said:

2. Speak respectfully about the players



Change: "Lazy fat bugger with no rugby brains"

To: "Needs to come off his wing and get more involved"



Not only are these statement more respectful, they are more accurate. "Lazy bugger" doesn't mean anything specific.



perhaps we should apply this philosophy to match officials.



If you are physically unable to run around the oval as a referee, then there is still a role you can play in the improvement of the Referee gene pool as a Referee Coach.



Perhaps you could provide objective feedback to the Head of School or Head of Sport at the school for them to pass on to the Referees Association, if you feel that there are areas of their game management or rules knowledge that a specific referee could improve on. Remember the poor Head of Sport often has to compete with other School Associations, Subbies, Grade, Juniors and Women's Rugby for quality Referees, and Assistant Referees. There is only a limited number of these floating around.



Wanging on about referee bias or outright incompetance on an internet rugby forum is not going to make a knob of goats droppings difference to overall referee performances. By becoming one yourself, or a referee coach, or providing specific objective feedback to the Match Organisers you can make a difference.



The point remains that there is not enough good referees around, and we need more of them. The game can not survive without them.

And of course no referee ever got better by having some insert insult of choice, hanging sh*t in them!

 

[Fred87]

So of you go and became an accredited referee coach - problem solved!

Same error of logic pal....

 

[Man on the hill]

Same error of logic pal..

No error in logic - he can't run around - sit & watch and provide genuine assistance to those that can.

We keep banging on that it is a game for all sizes ands shapes, well its also a game where there are many ways to contribute.

A ref coach is required to do a specialist course and prove law knowledge by doing the same law test as a referee. There is no requirement that they have ever been a referee!

 

[cyclopath]

OK, maybe everyone move along from this course of discussion and avoid personal snipes at each other.
FWIW - I see no problem commenting on standard of refereeing, as it is an integral part of the game, and if generally poor, is a valid discussion point. Relentless haranguing of refs is not so helpful.
Keep it civil.

 

[Elfster]

Thanks Hugh, but I think the best option is to just get rid of the offending comments asap, people will quickly learn.

There are some great games coming up in the last two rounds, Barker has two "must wins", for the outright Premiership.
This Sat, Barker vs Trinity & Cranbrook vs Knox (appologies to Aloys, Waves should have a good win) and Sat 10th, Barker vs Knox & Trinity vs Waves, and Aloy's home game against Cranbrook.

Both Barker and Waves have to be very aware of second round complacency, Good luck to all the boys!!

Should be some interesting games

Barker vs Trinity. Barker are always hard to beat at home, with good support and, in general, an ability to get more 50/50 calls. I am sure the team will relish the return home after last week's loss and get back to doing what they do best: scoring tries. Though some of the gloss of the team may have gone off them it is hard not to pick them. Especially as Trinity seems to leak a few tries in defence. Trinity should play to their strengths, in the forwards and hope discipline and commitment gets them through. I imagine they will come out hard and give it to Barker initially, but they don't have the depth of Barker and injuries could disrupt them,.

Aloys vs Waverley. Waverley's overall class should see them through. Though they do seem to have picked up injuries and the game against Barker may have taken some away from them. At home and by playing their normal style could see an Aloys ambush. I am sure they will be up to it, but will need to be at their best against a dangerous Waveley side.

Cranbrook vs Knox. At home, I can see Cranbrook winning this. Especially as they gave it to Knox at home earlier this year. It could depend on what the injury toll on both teams is and what Knox side decides to turn up. Though Knox is playing better now than earlier and with a little more purpose and confidence. Knox will need to show a bit more urgency and speed, especially the half getting quicker ball out to the backs. Cranbrook has played below their pre-season hopes, but the rugby program their is stronger than previous years and they do seem to be heading in the right direction. They look to be building up depth quite nicely and can't be ruled out in toppling Knox on the weekend.

 

[Rugby Ref]

All,

I have been a long-time fan of this web-site, and after reading the posts in this forum of late, I am compelled to make this post and “stick my head above the parapet” so to speak.

I suppose I am in a pretty good position to comment on the Waverley vs Barker 1st XV game at Queens Park last Saturday, as I was one of the Assistance Referees, not the one who reported the punching, but on the far side of the field when the issue occurred. I also was the referee for the 2nd XV game (which was quite a good game to referee, and a lot closer than the 28-7 final scoreline read).

From the discussions with my fellow officials at ‘oranges’ during the 1st XV game, there was clear evidence of punching being seen by the Barker player, so the end result is a no-brainer – red card as per the laws for U-19 Aust. age group players. As to what caused the Barker player to retaliate, there appears to be an indication in this forum that he was provoked – if so it is not the players responsibility to take the law into their own hands (I know this is not easy to do – I played the game for approx. 20 years before I took up refereeing).

The ref in question is a very fine referee indeed, and I have known him for a long time now – he handled this quality CAS 1st XV schools game quite well, and his decision making was spot on. As discussed in the forum he *could* have escalated sooner in the 2nd half when Waverley were penalised 4-5 penalties on the trot, but that is a judgement call every ref needs to make during a game – we all referee to what is called “material effect”; i.e. – if a transgression has occurred, and if it did not affect play, then play on (but discuss and manage at the next appropriate time so there are no repeat instances; if there are repeat instances, then penalise and then escalate to a caution if required).

For everyone’s information there was a very experienced referee coach assessing both myself and the 1st XV referee on Saturday at Queens Park, and he said after the 1st XV match that the Ref did a great job – and this specific referee coach is not the type to give out such praise quite candidly.

I appreciate ‘HJ’ copying the code of conduct for everyone to read – I wish all rugby teams – schools, Subbies, Women’s, premier, junior, etc all read this and abided by it; unfortunately this does not appear to be the case. Every referee (who has refereed for any period of time) has a horror story they can recall of being verbally (and in some cases – physically) abused, spat on, harassed and threatened during and after matches. I do know that the incident reports are growing every year to the Referees Department, and this year is no exception.

This season is one of worst I have seen (10 years now) whereby we are seriously lacking in refereeing numbers – when Schools are on (CAS, ISA, and GPS) plus Subbies and Premier grade there are double-ups galore, and a good proportion of referees are always doing 2 games on Saturday – and that doesn’t include lower aged school games in the morning, and SJRU games on Sunday. I have lost count of the number of new referees to the associations who have said ‘I am not going to cop this abuse any more on my Saturdays’ and have simply stopped refereeing the game they love.

Refereeing is not easy; it requires utmost concentration, learning to be in the right position at the right time, an acceptable level of fitness (and having the ability to move quickly as well as sufficient stamina) plus unfaltering law knowledge. Unfortunately our mistakes – and we do make them (but we try to minimise them as much as possible) – can be glaringly obvious as compared to a forward pass, or a missed tackle or dropped ball.

Saturdays CAS game between Waverley and Barker was an intense schoolboy match that easily rivalled a GPS match in skills and pace – all the lads should hold their heads up high for producing such a great effort and providing a good game of rugby for the crowd who watched.
Rugby Ref

 

[Lee Grant]

Thank you Rugby Ref for that quality post which explained things from a referee's perspective.

More please.
.

 

[Rugby Ref]

Thank you Rugby Ref for that quality post which explained things from a referee's perspective.

More please.
.

Will do LG, and thanks as well.

 

[alpha]

i thought the ref in the 1st XV did a pretty good job with 2 very aggressive and evenly matched sides and Waverley earned the win with a committed and well organised defence. And of course in close games luck can play a part. Earlier this year Barker were lucky when the Waverley half threw the ball out. This time Waverley had some luck with the intercepts and red card.

As a Barker supporter i agree. It was a very willing game by two very committed sides that could easily have gotten out of control with a lesser quality referee. The referee did not decide the outcome. Barker had more than enough ball in the 2nd half to win but could not breach a very well organised defence.

 

[alpha]

Nice post Rugby Ref. Congratulations on how you handled the 2nds, it was a very enjoyable match to watch.

On the red card - it was very close to the sideline, right under the nose of the assistant, all the Barker boys on the reserves bench saw it. All the boys know punching is a red so really that's the end of the discussion for mine.

On a completely unrelated note - HSC trials at this time of year make preparation more difficult so it will be a tense couple of weeks for the boys in more ways than one.

 

[SonnyDillWilliams]

awesome rugby ref ... how do you sign up to be ref? Just out of interest? Only issue is I might have to drop about 25 kilos ... sadly worn out front rowers don't tend to make good refs

either way appreciate both your post and ongoing service

good to reflect on both the spectator and player verbage that gets directed at refs

probably needs to be more in terms of host teams putting on ground marshals/security people

although gets pretty impossible when you have the big crowds, and sad that it is required

I think Joeys is probably the best in this area ... and to keep the CAS theme ... maybe Knox?

I know I will be talking to both my sons ... about this issue

 

[Benched '84]

So Rugby Ref, you would know the result of the judicial hearing on Monday night, what was the result???

 

[Old schooled]

So Rugby Ref, you would know the result of the judicial hearing on Monday night, what was the result???

Is there a mandatory suspension for a red card ? Or can the school override?

 

[Man on the hill]

Is there a mandatory suspension for a red card ? Or can the school override?

Sanctions are typically left to the school of the player sent off. They are getting better at self administration. For senior fixtures I understand that the convener & the victim school both have to sign off. GPS have a formal independant judiciary for these sorts of matters.

 

[Old schooled]

Noting the No4 sent off being an integral part of the forward pack the Barker administrator would be leniant.
Unfortunately strongly belive this sends a bad message to the boys.
Noticed after the send off there were a few more dust ups but no punchs.

Think the message got through loud and clear.
The 2 weeks would send a very clear message that Barker and other schools will not tolerate this type of violance no matter who you are!

 

[Fred87]

I believe the Barker policy on red cards is an automatic 1 match suspension, plus a Friday detention, plus an interview with the Headmaster. Depending how the interview goes the suspension may be extended.

Personally I think missing more than half the match (thereby letting his team mates down) & a 1 match suspension is a sufficiently heavy penalty for retaliating by punching someone in the leg.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

awesome rugby ref . how do you sign up to be ref? Just out of interest? Only issue is I might have to drop about 25 kilos . sadly worn out front rowers don't tend to make good refs

SDW, check this out on the ARU website http://www.rugby.com.au/tryrugby/refereeing/qualification.aspx

you would be welcome and you have 6 months until the start of the next season to lose some of the weight and then running around each weekend with the whistle will help you lose the rest.

Wayne Erickson was a worn out front rower and he went on to be a Test referee.

 

[CASfooty]

It's weird how Cranbrook can have such depth with their 2nds, 3rds and 16s age group having successful seasons but year after year they never seem to put up a threatening 1st 15, anyone know why this is?

 

[thecow]

All CAS !st & @2nd Grade games have referees appointed by NSW Referees Association- there certainly should be no home town bias in these games.
Occasionally the School games are allocated `top guns' and it was great lasat Saturday to have Knox vs Aloys reffed by Nathan Pearce (1st Grade/ex Super 15). His firm efficiency & clear instructions/explanations were first-class.

Was good to see that appointment - reason being he was a 1993 Knox leaver and it was the 20 year reunion!

As a referee myself, when you drop a few levels from what you usually do the biggest difference is that if the players want to play flowing, attacking rugby, it is a lot easier to facilitate that, because the instructions you give them are usually of a higher class than they usually receive.

In regards to the standard of refereeing this year, from what I have seen in the appointments, from what I know of the gradings, most of the 1st XV games in both CAS and GPS this year have been given to experienced A/B/C grade referees, rather than the shining prospects of the NSW referees that used to be the case. The reasoning two-fold: higher exposure of the younger guns to grade games, and the problems with crowd abuse last year (i.e. the Cranbrook-Trinity game at Hordern and a Joeys-Newington game). Whilst having more experienced referees should provide a better outcome, out of the 'B' grade referees, only 2 or 3 out of the 15 or so would be above the age of 30.

Hope this helps for anyone who was wondering. If anyone has any other questions please ask