Bledisloe III at Perth, 5/09/21 - 4pm AEST

[Dan54]

Bullrush - I agree with the comments regarding going to the next level etc but I think it’s more the fact that these blokes simply are never going to be as good as many hope.

You mentioned around 10 blokes who’ve played in the last few years who ‘didn’t keep going‘ but let’s be serious, there is no chance the team was going to have a bunch of generational players come through one after the other, the talent pool for rugby isn’t that deep in Australia. It’s not so much about giving up once they get to gold, it’s more that they’ve reached their peak.

Interetsing comment Phil, and one seems Goldy Wilson agrees with, on Breakdown last night Mils Muliana made comment that this Wallaby team had class players that just needed to get it right (or along those lines), when they cut back to Goldy he just said "NO, they are not a class team"., I played against classy Wallaby teams and this is not anywhere near that. He wasn't being disrespectful by any means, just seemed to feel it was time to be honest. Must admit made me have a little think, he could be right, and we have been watching the decline of Wallabies over the last few years, and when you actually put them against the teams of late 90s through to 2010 (rough era) the gap really is huge. He has played (and got well beaten ) by some of those teams, and is still mates with a lot of them, so I got impression he perhaps thinking it an insult to them.

 

[Dan54]

Kicking and passing are just skills that can be learned and refined with time, practice and dedication.

It's really up to him as to whether he wants to do that - and maybe his coaches.

I actually think these ar skills you should have berore you play top level rugby. If you learn them at a late stage you have to think about doing it, and passing, catching the ball etc HAS to be automatic, so you can do them as you are looking for space etc. If you concentrating on how to pass properly, you not using your mind to look at using space around you to pass into space etc.
Well that's what I always believed, and what I used to tell kids that I coached , all basics should be 2nd nature if you want to be top of your game.

 

[Quick Hands]

I actually think yhese ar skills you should have berore you play top level rugby. If you learn them at a late stage you have to think about doing it, and passing, catching the ball etc HAS to be automatic, so you acn do them as you are looking for space etc. If you concetrating on how to pass properly, you not using your mind to look at using space around you to pass into space etc.
Well that's what I always believed, and what I used to tell kids that I coached , all basics should be 2nd nature if you want to be top of your game.

This is the essential problem. RA and the state unions seem to think that by appointing Kiwi coaches to the Wallabies and Super Rugby teams that our best players will magically be turned into the All Blacks. The issue is and has been for close to 20 years that the development and coaching systems in place aren't giving the basic skills of the game or the general rugby knowledge of how to play the game – i.e. when to kick, run or pass. Someone told me many years ago that Kiwi coaches will never succeed in Australia because they presume that players arriving at pro-level will have built up the core skills and the rugby knowledge in their formative years – but it’s simply not the case.

 

[Bullrush]

I actually think yhese ar skills you should have berore you play top level rugby. If you learn them at a late stage you have to think about doing it, and passing, catching the ball etc HAS to be automatic, so you acn do them as you are looking for space etc. If you concetrating on how to pass properly, you not using your mind to look at using space around you to pass into space etc.
Well that's what I always believed, and what I used to tell kids that I coached , all basics should be 2nd nature if you want to be top of your game.

There are some guys who are so good at what they do that there deficiency in other areas get overlooked.

I think about what a different player Ma'a Nonu was comparing his first Test to his last. I watched a video a few months back where Aaron Smith was working on his passing because he felt it wasn't quite where he needs it to be. He talked about how he has worked on his leadership and the way he interacts with the Highlanders.

Then I think about how the careers of players like Beale, JOC (James O'Connor) and QC (Quade Cooper) might have been like if they had played in NZ. Yeah - you might be the best player in your position right now but unless you keep working and improving, there is always someone coming up who wants your jersey.

 

[Namerican]

Don't think these Wallabies are a class team, they are a team with a bunch of fairly decent players, but this is international rugby and you need outstanding players at most positions to compete.

How many Wallabies would make the Boks or the ABs, or forecast to do so in the next few years?

At most: Skeleton (reserve lock) who isn't playing for OZ, Tupou, and honestly that's about it.

Kerevi/Korobiete might get a look in, but I think they'd get the Laumape treatment where they are not selected as a first choice player as the rest of their game isn't well rounded. I think Hooper gets the Matt Todd treatment and isn't picked over PSDT, Cane, Ardie etc., likely plays about the same as Kwagga Smith/Matt Todd.

Guys like Banks, Lolesio, Hodge, Paisami, Wilson, Uelese, are good players, but they are not going to make a major mark at test rugby.

 

[Bullrush]

Interetsing comment Phil, and one seems Goldy Wilson agrees with, on Breakdown last night Mils Muliana made comment that this Wallaby team had class players that just needed to get it right (or along those lines), when they cut back to Goldy he just said "NO, they are not a class team"., I played against classy Wallaby teams and this is not anywhere near that. He wasn't being disrespectful by any means, just seemed to feel it was time to be honest. Must admit made me have a little think, he could be right, and we have been watching the decline of Wallabies over the last few years, and when you actually put them against the teams of late 90s through to 2010 (rough era) the gap really is huge. He has played (and got well beaten ) by some of those teams, and is still mates with a lot of them, so I got impression he perhaps thinking it an insult to them.

This is what I have been saying.

This Wallabies team is a young squad who, apart from Slipper, AAA and Hooper, have almost zero Test experience in the ranks anymore. Most of the team have less than 20 Tests - many under 10. They are learning on the job. There is no 'apprenticeship' or better players to turn to.

These guys are largely the same players that many here were looking at during Super Rugby Au as being the best Australia has to offer. And they are.

 

[Dctarget]

Don't know if we'd even want Skelton. Shoulder charged someone on the weekend, got red carded and gave away the game for La Rochelle who were winning against Toulouse.

 

[Dan54]

Don't think these Wallabies are a class team, they are a team with a bunch of fairly decent players, but this is international rugby and you need outstanding players at most positions to compete.

How many Wallabies would make the Boks or the ABs, or forecast to do so in the next few years?

At most: Skeleton (reserve lock) who isn't playing for OZ, Tupou, and honestly that's about it.

Kerevi/Korobiete might get a look in, but I think they'd get the Laumape treatment where they are not selected as a first choice player as the rest of their game isn't well rounded. I think Hooper gets the Matt Todd treatment and isn't picked over PSDT, Cane, Ardie etc., likely plays about the same as Kwagga Smith/Matt Todd.

Guys like Banks, Lolesio, Hodge, Paisami, Wilson, Uelese, are good players, but they are not going to make a major mark at test rugby.

I would think Tate McDermott would be looked at, the boy has some x factor!
But the measure for me is not who would make Boks or ABs, just I truly believe you need at least 3-4 players at minimum who are in discussion for a world XV, not really first choice because they all opinions any way, but if I was picking a world 23 , I can't think of one Wallaby that would come into consideration at moment.
I think at times just maybe one of problems is media have been to quick to elevate players to above where they are. I often think lately cases have been Petaia, who after coming on in a test was seemingly one of the best attacking players in world, and even Tupou, who is a very very good super player, and a good test player, but not really a world beater.

 

[PhilClinton]

These guys are largely the same players that many here were looking at during Super Rugby Au as being the best Australia has to offer. And they are.

The best Australia has to offer from players able to be selected. The best pure footballers currently in the country all play in the NRL - Tommy Turbo, Nathan Cleary, Cam Munster could all slot into 10/15 for the Wallabies at a pinch.

The comments on Breakdown are reflective of the current issue with rugby in Australia. During the 80s-90s and early 2000s the proper class players still had a home with rugby. Since then, the money has been drying up whilst the NRL has been thriving. Players know what they are worth and want to be paid.

Once the NRL competition expands to 17 teams in 2023, it won’t be long until it’s 18 (probably another Victorian team) and then they’ll look at the West coast. It’s not looking good for securing the top level players in our game.

Further to my point - last year Quade was stuck in Australia and mentioned he was keen for a crack at the NRL. Guess what, don’t buy all the rubbish about issues in Japan with his contract, the fact is that no NRL team wanted to pay him. This is the same bloke that people in this forum are calling to be leading the Wallabies around currently at 10?? Crazy.

 

[Bullrush]

I would think Tate McDermott would be looked at, the boy has some x factor!
But the measure for me is not who would make Boks or ABs, just I truly believe you need at least 3-4 players at minimum who are in discussion for a world XV, not really first choice because they all opinions any way, but if I was picking a world 23 , I can't think of one Wallaby that would come into consideration at moment.
I think at times just maybe one of problems is media have been to quick to elevate players to above where they are. I often think lately cases have been Petaia, who after coming on in a test was seemingly one of the best attacking players in world, and even Tupou, who is a very very good super player, and a good test player, but not really a world beater.

Exactly. And guys like Tupou and Petaia are perfect examples of players who have awesome talent and rugby in their veins - they just need to keep working and developing to become that top-class, world XV consideration.

I don't want to go back into the Super Rugby shit here but this is why isolating and insulating Australian rugby is a bad idea and why pushing for open borders is needed.

There are young guys in this team that have the potential to be great Test players - getting smacked by the ABs when you have less than 10 Tests under your belt is hardly an accurate reflection of where these players are. Wait till the Argentina games. I would want to see some improvement from the French series in those games. That's where I think you guys need to be critical.

 

[Micheal]

The best Australia has to offer from players able to be selected. The best pure footballers currently in the country all play in the NRL - Tommy Turbo, Nathan Cleary, Cam Munster could all slot into 10/15 for the Wallabies at a pinch.

The comments on Breakdown are reflective of the current issue with rugby in Australia. During the 80s-90s and early 2000s the proper class players still had a home with rugby. Since then, the money has been drying up whilst the NRL has been thriving. Players know what they are worth and want to be paid.

Once the NRL competition expands to 17 teams in 2023, it won’t be long until it’s 18 (probably another Victorian team) and then they’ll look at the West coast. It’s not looking good for securing the top level players in our game.

Further to my point - last year Quade was stuck in Australia and mentioned he was keen for a crack at the NRL. Guess what, don’t buy all the rubbish about issues in Japan with his contract, the fact is that no NRL team wanted to pay him. This is the same bloke that people in this forum are calling to be leading the Wallabies around currently at 10?? Crazy.

Imagine if the following squad had four years of full time rugby to upskill:

1. Allan Ala'alatoa
2. ?
3. Taniela Tupou
4. Tino Faasuamaleaui
5. Payne Haas
6. Angus Crichton
7. Michael Hooper
8. David Fifita
9. McDermott
10. Nathan Cleary
11. Ryan Papenhuyzen
12. Cameron Munster
13. Lattrel Mitchell
14. Tom Trbojevic
15. James Tedesco

16. Junior Paulo
17. ?
18. Angus Bell
19. Will Skelton
20. Harry Wilson
21. Harry Grant
22. Cameron Murray
23. Aldo-Carr

Even then, there are literally dozens of players I'd take in a heartbeat that I've left out.

They would genuinely trounce the Wallabies. Across the board they are simply far better athletes, far more professional and far more talented.

A boy can dream.

Sad.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Similar to Bullrush, I'm going to reserve my judgement about where this playing group is at until at least the end of TRC. We've played against the All Blacks so many times over the last 12 months that it may be clouding our judgement. Even with our best players it's always a struggle to beat them consistently, but our record against South Africa and Argentina is much more favourable. If we play well against both of them it will provide some much needed perspective about how things are progressing. If we bomb then yes it will be time for some serious soul searching.

 

[wamberal]

I see an equivalent situation with the Socceroo's.

We simply are not good enough to beat the All Blacks and being within striking distance of a win is about all we can expect.

Except for the fact that we do beat them. Not often. But a lot more often than the Socceroos beat any of the top 10 or 20 in the world.

 

[Dan54]

Exactly. And guys like Tupou and Petaia are perfect examples of players who have awesome talent and rugby in their veins - they just need to keep working and developing to become that top-class, world XV consideration.

Actually I feel sorry for Tupou in one way , it infuriates me when people give props nicknames that are supposedly superhuman. I used to get pissed in Qld when I was at Reds games all the times a few years back and everyone was calling Rodney Blake -Rodzilla, he was a good prop that everyone was elevating into something he wasn't, whu I dislike the Tongan Thor shit, it too easy to get into player's head that they are better etc than they are!! Always the start of a prop not meeting his potential to me.

Ok one of my old rants and got to use it again!!

 

[eastman]

Didn’t even get his body into the best position to ‘attempt’ a tackle. I can accept a tackle may not be successful a big unit running at a smaller guy which most likely was going to be the out come, but that was not an acceptable attempt in my books didn’t even show the basics taught to primary school kids dropping body height, approach angle etc. I don’t expect fly half’s to do heavy contact but there are situations where it is necessary it’s rugby. That’s the most worrying thing for me about Noah there are just these little things in his game that point to avoiding contact. You teach or learn skills and game management it comes with experience and that will come for him.
Avoidance of contact that’s a sub conscious thing in your DNA pretty much impossible to coach or remove from your game with experience.

Plenty of fly-halves don't put their body on the line every tackle - this is hardly a hanging offense.

 

[eastman]

I actually think these ar skills you should have berore you play top level rugby. If you learn them at a late stage you have to think about doing it, and passing, catching the ball etc HAS to be automatic, so you can do them as you are looking for space etc. If you concentrating on how to pass properly, you not using your mind to look at using space around you to pass into space etc.
Well that's what I always believed, and what I used to tell kids that I coached , all basics should be 2nd nature if you want to be top of your game.

Yeah that was my point - if you can't pass to an adequate level by the time you're a professional (and he honestly can't) - it's too late.

 

[eastman]

Don't think these Wallabies are a class team, they are a team with a bunch of fairly decent players, but this is international rugby and you need outstanding players at most positions to compete.

How many Wallabies would make the Boks or the ABs, or forecast to do so in the next few years?

At most: Skeleton (reserve lock) who isn't playing for OZ, Tupou, and honestly that's about it.

Kerevi/Korobiete might get a look in, but I think they'd get the Laumape treatment where they are not selected as a first choice player as the rest of their game isn't well rounded. I think Hooper gets the Matt Todd treatment and isn't picked over PSDT, Cane, Ardie etc., likely plays about the same as Kwagga Smith/Matt Todd.

Guys like Banks, Lolesio, Hodge, Paisami, Wilson, Uelese, are good players, but they are not going to make a major mark at test rugby.

Underselling Hooper but everything else is spot on.

 

[Slim 293]

Didn’t even get his body into the best position to ‘attempt’ a tackle. I can accept a tackle may not be successful a big unit running at a smaller guy which most likely was going to be the out come, but that was not an acceptable attempt in my books didn’t even show the basics taught to primary school kids dropping body height, approach angle etc. I don’t expect fly half’s to do heavy contact but there are situations where it is necessary it’s rugby. That’s the most worrying thing for me about Noah there are just these little things in his game that point to avoiding contact. You teach or learn skills and game management it comes with experience and that will come for him.
Avoidance of contact that’s a sub conscious thing in your DNA pretty much impossible to coach or remove from your game with experience.

For a guy supposedly avoiding contact, he's seemingly had to make more tackles than any of his backline teammates in the past couple of matches.........

 

[griffins]

Plenty of fly-halves don't put their body on the line every tackle - this is hardly a hanging offense.

Pretty sure that was Ikitau missing A Ioane? Noah made his share of mistakes but shouldn;t be pinned for this one.

 

[liquor box]

Actually I feel sorry for Tupou in one way , it infuriates me when people give props nicknames that are supposedly superhuman. I used to get pissed in Qld when I was at Reds games all the times a few years back and everyone was calling Rodney Blake -Rodzilla, he was a good prop that everyone was elevating into something he wasn't, whu I dislike the Tongan Thor shit, it too easy to get into player's head that they are better etc than they are!! Always the start of a prop not meeting his potential to me.

Ok one of my old rants and got to use it again!!

I get infuriated at how he is used as a Wallaby.

He seems to get to run with the ball and receive passes more as a Red than as a Wallaby. I have to assume this is a plan by the Wallabies coaching set up as he can be devastating with the ball in hand (at Super Rugby level) but for the Wallabies he seems to play more of a supporting role of following the ball runner into the ruck to try to clear out or at least hold back the opposition.

His performances seem very different at both levels and I get frustrated at him not getting the ball at test level.