Beyond Belief

[Sully]

I agree with you Mark. I also have little time for there money grab. Especially as it is like a job interview for a 5 (I think) game tour at $11000 buck a game. I pretty sure I would give up some of my time for free if I had a chance at a 5 week tour of Asia and the UK and $55000 spending money and free travel and accommodation in 5 star hotels.

 

[Lindommer]

...didn't the ARU and the NSWRU make the mistake?

Yes and no. The ARU advised the NSWRU some time last year of 2009's international commitments, which included an Australia A match. The NSWRU then sold memberships for seven (or whatever) matches at the SFS, including the Australia A game. Subsequent to the subscriptions going out the ARU cancelled the Australia A program. The ARU, quite rightly, felt some obligation to the NSWRU to replace the Australia A match as the alternative was for the NSWRU to refund some monies to their members for not providing the promised number of matches for which they'd paid. Hence the talk of $100,000 being sent out to NSWRU season ticket-holders this week.

Frankly, if there's no match for those season ticket-holders to replace the Australia A match the ARU should send a cheque to the NSWRU for $100k. And if any other unions have been short-changed by the number of international matches they were advised by the ARU, they too should receive a cheque in the mail.

 

[Scotty]

Mark,

The problem with your analogy is the timing of this. According to Dempsey's response this had all be decided in August, therefore prior to the last 3N game, which we are all so angry about.

JON has been successful, due to his timing, of messing with the supporters minds and thus engendering this angry response.

 

[Scotty]

Lindommer,

I agree that the ARU should sent the money to the NSWRU, if it is as simple as what you have stated. However, I have my doubts that is the case contractually.

 

[fatprop]

Agree PB. Imagine the world of commerce and industry if we all demanded payment to go to a job interview.

You have it in a nutshell. Players responsible should go now. Replacing the coach would achieve nothing - the players would simply do it again whenever they felt like it.

Two points here:

1. Realistically it isn't a job interview for the vast majority of players, with likely only a couple of spots up for grabs based on this game.

2. Could you imagine the world of commerce and industry if we all demanded our staff to work for free on a commercial venture?

But they have contracts. They are being paid.

Yep, but this game was "overtime"

 

[Lindommer]

I've read all the available press on this issue and have come to the conclusion Dempsey instigated this shitfight purely as an opportunity to beat his chest. And not for the first time, he "quoted" the Wallaby captain's concern over Tuqiri's sacking but was subsequently contradicted by Mortlock.

It's about time some "senior Wallabies" stood up and declared their support and availability for a public trial, free of charge. They should also remind Dempsey he represents their interests as rugby players and RUPA is not a vehicle for either his self-aggrandisement or petty political ambitions.

 

[Newb]

hmmm... i'm not entirely sure what to make of all this and i tend to lean towards it being a huge over-reaction from both sides that ruined a good thing. and good things should go.

a few devil's advocate points:

• if the aussie a match had gone through as planned, someone would have had to pay the players a total of $2,500 x 22 = $55,000. now the players (most of whom actively participate on the senior squad already) are asking to be paid twice as much $2,500 x 44 = $110,000 for their fill in services. so better players for twice the money.
• the probs/poss game would undoubtedly draw a bigger crowd and a larger tv audience than an aussie a game against the tongan bench warmers or whomever... so more source of revenue also?? i think yes. more than another $55,000?? for sure.
• the nswru would get a game for the member tickets sold, even if it appears that amount equaled the players asking price. what percentage would nswru have to pay of those player fees?? the breaking even story may not hold...
• does nswru get a share of revenue from non-member ticket sales or concessions or anything else for having the game in nsw, and therefore additional money? i don't know.
• with the game cancelled, nswru has to return it's membership ticket sales amount. as has been pointed out, that is really not the responsibility of anyone, but the aru for shit canning aussie a. let them pay for it.
• let's say that as a replacement fix, nswru organized a state of origin match (televised, held at sfs) of rugby between nsw players and qld players. do you think they would want to be paid?? qld players would for certain because why should they play in a match like that out of charity for the nswru's sake?
• players in the current wallabies side come from several provinces and might share the similar views towards the trial match, which i imagine would be televised and given all usual pomp and circumstance if played at the sfs. and don't think for a second that even waratah players would really want to play for free to "help out" their beloved union. the game is a business these days.
• like it or not, players have a contract that pays them, and that contract is binding until it expires (ehem... lote) so just because they played like crap (and they did) they can't be paid less. scotland still pays their players the same amount every game and an they can't beat anyone!
• the time to pay them less for performance is at contract renewals, or to just drop them from contract entirely. because as professionals, they are paid to play rugby, at whatever level appointed. so should they be paid for playing rugby at a promoted event, even if not against a foreign opponent? seems like their job to me, and you're paid for doing your job
• outside of the nswru, very few like the nswru. i'm not surprised qru, wa, and canbera weren't eager to throw them a line.
• demmo is still a useless toolbag.
• JON is still doing very little to support actual development in aussie rugby, while doing all he can to build up his dream of a watered-down, spread thin, 5 team aussie super15 conference that will only promote inter-union bickering and divisiveness as the fight over professional-ready players intensifies, all the while being undermined by the lack of a school boy to club/super15 development program. well done that man.

 

[daz]

Re: Money Hungry Wallabies.

Struth, If I was a headmaster I'd be lining the fuckers up against the wall and cane them one by one.

Absolutely ridiculous, unnacceptable and disrespectful.

"Senior Wallabies" have apparently forgotten their place in rugby. Kick 'em all out and take an Selection 15 from people who care.

:angryfire:

Well said, that man.

Here is an interesting perspective - Do you remember the report from the last world cup that said when Berrick Barnes was in the tunnel waiting to run on in his debut match, he was so excited that he was jumping up and down and letting out a few Whoopies of joy?


Now, if someone had said to him that morning that due to a stuff up in the payroll office his match fee wasn't going to be paid for that game, does anyone think he would have walked back into the sheds, phoned his agent/lawyer and gone to the pub? No, I don't think so either. He would have said "Fuck the money, I'm a Wallaby!"

Now, I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be paid, and paid well, as a representative of Australian sport, but I do wonder at what point the money becomes more important than running onto the field of battle in a Gold jersey.

My hopeless naievity is shining through here I guess, but I bet if the ARU went on a talent scouting mission throughout Australia, they would find a shitload of kids who would act just like Barnes did before his first game, and would give anything, ANYTHING, to have a crack. Maybe not at the same international standard, and they might lose more than they win, but at least they would leave everything on the field. I'd support those guys to the end and back.

Let's harness that...

daz

 

[Biffo]

Agree PB. Imagine the world of commerce and industry if we all demanded payment to go to a job interview.

You have it in a nutshell. Players responsible should go now. Replacing the coach would achieve nothing - the players would simply do it again whenever they felt like it.

Two points here:

1. Realistically it isn't a job interview for the vast majority of players, with likely only a couple of spots up for grabs based on this game.

2. Could you imagine the world of commerce and industry if we all demanded our staff to work for free on a commercial venture?

But they have contracts. They are being paid.

Yep, but this game was "overtime"

Not overtime. Each player has a contract which obliges him only to train and be available for the Wallabies. That is the retainer element of the contract. Each job is an extra - a test is a extra job and earns a fee. The tour to Europe is an extra - there is nothing in a Wallaby's contract to say he is entitled to the tour. If he gets a gig for the tour, a Wallaby gets high class subsistence and the opportunity of an extra job - 1-5 tests at AUD 11,000 apiece.

If the ARU wants to run a trial as a job interview for the tour, the financing arrangements are none of the players' business whatsoever. What the ARU charges and what it does with the money it its own business.

The only case in which a squad member might have a right to payment for the trial is if a fee for such a game is included in the existing contract.

 

[daz]

I've read all the available press on this issue and have come to the conclusion Dempsey instigated this shitfight purely as an opportunity to beat his chest. And not for the first time, he "quoted" the Wallaby captain's concern over Tuqiri's sacking but was subsequently contradicted by Mortlock.

It's about time some "senior Wallabies" stood up and declared their support and availability for a public trial, free of charge. They should also remind Dempsey he represents their interests as rugby players and RUPA is not a vehicle for either his self-aggrandisement or petty political ambitions.

I'll be very interested to see what Rod Kafer has to say about this on the Rugby Club on Thursday night. I will be even more keen to see if Kearns takes him to task if Kafer does what he usually does, which is back Dempsey.


daz

 

[Biffo]

The solution is simple. Expand the squad to 44. Schedule full contact sessions of 60 minutes every day for a week.

 

[Scotty]

And have a squad of 20 left after 3 weeks?

 

[Biffo]

And have a squad of 20 left after 3 weeks?

Provided the right blokes fall, that might be a very desirable outcome

 

[Gagger]

Last time I checked the ARU and NSWRU were non-profit organisations whose surplusses went in to bettering australian rugby. You can argue with how they do it, but there are no shareholders or a rich arsehole making money out of all of this.

So when people say: "The ARU should just have paid NSWRU" - where do you think that money's coming from?

What Dempsey and his lot have completely lost sight of is that they don't work for a normal commercial business, where what extra they can get comes from the market or JO'Ns personal coffers - it comes from Australian rugby

If my employees, through their union rep sent me and Australian Rugby a 'fuck you' like this, then the very least they could expect is a roasting in the press at a time that suits me, and not them.

I'll be very interested to see what Rod Kafer has to say about this on the Rugby Club on Thursday night. I will be even more keen to see if Kearns takes him to task if Kafer does what he usually does, which is back Dempsey.

Don't hold your breath. Kearns is sunk to the nuts in RUPA as well

 

[Sully]

Good point Gagger. I had completely lost sight of the fact that these are non profit organisations and the stake holders are the fans whose only return on there investment is a game of Rugby. The players can say professional as much as they like.

 

[Scotty]

My thoughts are the same as Zeno's on this one.

The anger from Wallaby supporters, including many on this site would not have been apparent had we won on the weekend or if this had come out after the Brisbane test match.

 

[Gagger]

Perhaps, but all that says is that they should have thought a lot fucking harder before they tried to say 'screw you' to their employer.

 

[Scotty]

Where did they say 'screw you'?. They said we want to get paid for working over time. Thats all.

 

[Novocastrian]

Where did they say 'screw you'?. They said we want to get paid for working over time if there's a chance the ARU/NSWRU might make a dollar from it, if not we're happy to do the OT for free. Well, as long as we can fit it in with our tireless charity work, involvement with grassroots rugby and caring for little lost kittens (all of which we do out of the goodness of our hearts, not for PR reasons). Thats all.

 

[fatprop]

Agree PB. Imagine the world of commerce and industry if we all demanded payment to go to a job interview.

You have it in a nutshell. Players responsible should go now. Replacing the coach would achieve nothing - the players would simply do it again whenever they felt like it.

Two points here:

1. Realistically it isn't a job interview for the vast majority of players, with likely only a couple of spots up for grabs based on this game.

2. Could you imagine the world of commerce and industry if we all demanded our staff to work for free on a commercial venture?

But they have contracts. They are being paid.

Yep, but this game was "overtime"

Not overtime. Each player has a contract which obliges him only to train and be available for the Wallabies. That is the retainer element of the contract. Each job is an extra - a test is a extra job and earns a fee. The tour to Europe is an extra - there is nothing in a Wallaby's contract to say he is entitled to the tour. If he gets a gig for the tour, a Wallaby gets high class subsistence and the opportunity of an extra job - 1-5 tests at AUD 11,000 apiece.

If the ARU wants to run a trial as a job interview for the tour, the financing arrangements are none of the players' business whatsoever. What the ARU charges and what it does with the money it its own business.

The only case in which a squad member might have a right to payment for the trial is if a fee for such a game is included in the existing contract.

That is incorrect

They have a collective bargaining agreement with the ARU

http://www.rupa.com.au/ArticlePage.aspx?PageID=2106

have a read