Australian Schoolboys & National Championships 2012

[Taipan168]

The other guy is not the point. Everybody who was at the Oz Schools v NZ Schools match at Knox last year and saw Jake McIntyre change the game from the bench - or saw him this year for CHS in rep games, or starting for Oz Schools v Tongan Schools this year (he played fullback for NSW) know his quality.

The point is that there is not another specialist flyhalf in the whole squad of 28. At least Horwitz was on the bench at St. Marys last month for the Tonga game in a matchday 23.

I've seen all the Oz squad fellows play over the last two years and a majority of them in both, and there's not one, other than McIntyre, who I have seen start a game at flyhalf. I can't put my hand on my heart and say that none of them was ever been switched to the position during a game I saw, but I can't recall it's happening.

I have no doubt that Tuttle could play any position in the backline because his range of rugby attributes for a back gives him uncommon utility. Perhaps he has played there for Nudgee every now and then. I've posed that question a few times on the forum but never got an answer from Queenslanders.

I'm confused too Fred.
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Jack Tuttle played #15 today.
Don't know if he has ever played fly-half.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

A little birdie told me that the player who replaced Jones in the squad is at the same school as the coach teaches at.

 

[Vanuatu Chiefs]

Yes, I'm confused why Horwitz is not in the squad. I just saw him mastermind two incredible victories over Joey's and Riverview. I've rarely seen a schoolboy #10 have so much poise. The other bloke must be good.

Incidentally, I emailed the Scots Head Coach about Friday lunch-time to ask him for comments on today's Scots/Newington game, including his view on Horwitz's non-selection. Somehow, I feel my email will go unanswered. I'll ask him in person today.

As far as passing left-to-right is concerned - yes, it is a very large skill deficiency rooted in our overwhelming left brain / right-handedness. You guys know this, I presume, but it takes an incredible amount of work by skills coaches to build up the dexterity.

A sports science bloke at a clinic told the class that it takes 500 hours of repetition to achieve "competence" in a discrete skill - not "mastery", but competence. One thing we did at basketball training as teenagers was to stick our right hand in our pocket, or down the back of our shorts, and play ball dribbling games only with our left hand for hours and hours and hours. it works!

Indeed, pity the right winger with poor passers to his left.

Fred, enjoyed a number of points in your post. The sentiment "practice makes permanent" resonates.

On a side note, I'm interested to know which teams are depicted in your avatar.

 

[Lee Grant]

Horwitz is definately available and willing to tour but was told by ASRU heirarchy that he was not selected on form. WTF!!! He may not have the razzle dazzle of McIntyre - ..

Nor does McIntyre.

Just kidding; he's not a razzle dazzle player: just a meat and potatoes player who plays beyond his years - like a fellow 5 years older. I won't claim that he will be a whizz in senior rugby: he could be one of those schools players who finds out in 5 years time that that others have a 22-23 year old rugby head then like he has now - and like he will still have then too. If you know what I mean.

But still the question is not answered: who is the back up flyhalf on tour?

Any Newington guys out there? Please ask Rappy.


PS - I've just remembered something. When I was at the Oz A game, about 6 weeks ago, I didn't notice any back up flyhalf in the Oz A team so I asked the coach, Mike Wallace of TSS, who was the backup? I said Tuttle? He said yes - either him or fullback Porch. Indeed Tuttle was doing some pre-game drills as first receiver.

Porch and Tuttle have bee added to the touring party; so I've probably answered my own question.
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[I like to watch]

.....
ASRU does not have any long term development responsibilities to ARU.quote]

Is that logical, is it satisfactory?
Either the ARU should give them firm directions, or they should cut the cash off, and spend where they have influence.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Would like to see the peak body wield it's power over schools, but can't see it happen in the short term.

Until they do, ASRU will continue to do what they think is in their best interests (which is to win schoolboy tests) rather than produce future professional rugby players.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

A sports science bloke at a clinic told the class that it takes 500 hours of repetition to achieve "competence" in a discrete skill - not "mastery", but competence. One thing we did at basketball training as teenagers was to stick our right hand in our pocket, or down the back of our shorts, and play ball dribbling games only with our left hand for hours and hours and hours. it works!

and 10,000 repetitions to "master"?

 

[Lee Grant]

Would like to see the peak body wield it's power over schools, but can't see it happen in the short term.

Until they do, ASRU will continue to do what they think is in their best interests (which is to win schoolboy tests) rather than produce future professional rugby players.

I don't think it will happen in the long term either. Schools are more interested in schooling, and it is fitting and proper that they are. When I spoke to the president of the ASRU at the Oz Schools tournament he said that their role was to give the boys a good rugby experience. Naturally they hoped that many of the boys would be Wallabies one day but it was not the role of the ASRU.

He had a point.

The people who use this forum are nearly exclusively rugby heads and a majority of us would like to see a 'peak body' change things.

One matter that some would like to change is the clunky tournament system of private schools. From a rugby point of view we'd like to have seen this season, in Sydney, the likes of Newington, Oakhill, St. Augustines, Barker etc playing in the same competition and Grammar, St. Andrews, High etc in another. Queenslanders would probably have a similar view and hey - why not have the winner of the main Sydney comp play the Qld champs as well?

That is probably not going to happen, but I see nothing wrong in having challenges during the trial games. St. Augustines (ISA) have whacked Joeys (GPS) a couple of times in recent years and I think that the Joeys, faithful who liked the change of opponent and the rugby they played, wouldn't mind to see a game against Auggies for a trophy every year

Scots (GPS) could play Cranbrook (CAS) to make the Battle of Bellevue Hill an official trophy match - or near neighbour Waverley (CAS) instead. Shore (GPS) and Aloys (CAS) - Oakhill (ISA) and Kings (GPS) - could play for annual trophies also in the trial periods if there is wriggle room with the CAS starting earlier than most. No doubt Queenslanders will be considering some trophy match possibilities also.

I don't think that changes to tournament arrangements will happen, but you never know: playing a couple of trophy matches against schools from other associations every season could be an intermediate step to get people thinking. If not, they will spice up the trials anyway.

But I have digressed. There are more important things for a 'peak body' to do in schools - and rugby missionary work is one of them. But where does the extra money come from to get the people to do these kind of things that the AFL is doing?.
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[stonecutter]

Would like to see the peak body wield it's power over schools, but can't see it happen in the short term.

Until they do, ASRU will continue to do what they think is in their best interests (which is to win schoolboy tests) rather than produce future professional rugby players.

Or we could treat it for what it is and recognise that it is a bunch of semi developed schoolboy players and not the next great wave of Wallaby salvation. With regards to young Jones, he is an undoubted talent but will it hurt him to hold him back from the demands of playing against more mentally and physically prepared players and let him rest from the rigours of a long season. He will undoubtedly be considered again next year and yes, some talents are hard to ignore but Australians have an unhealthy fascination with playing under age players above their level early in a career and in more cases than most to the detriment of the players development. Why? Year 10 players are presenting for 1st XV selection instead of continuing to grow and learn through their age group. I personally believe the Aus Schools team should be the domain of year 12 players with yr 11's of potential mixed in with reserve prospects to form the Aus A team. State and association trials should also run accordingly. How many good yr 12 players have been overlooked to give the next wunderkid a position 2 years before his time and then disengage from the game. All to fuel someones ego about recognising the next big thing and who is still likely to fullfill that destiny anyway.

In regards to the ASRU producing future professional players can I ask where in the Board of Studies charter does it state that this is their responsibility and who within the school system has the coaching credentials to do so? I can't recall too many schoolboy coaches with great success in the senior game. It amazes me how much credence we give to the schools selections each year when you account for the lack of tried senior experience from those making the decisions albeit well intended.

My view is to leave the schools to their own devices (and politics)but to make kids aware that a Schools jumper is no more than a representation of schools rugby and that the pathway has yet to begin to senior honours.

 

[I like to watch]

My view is to leave the schools to their own devices (and politics)but to make kids aware that a Schools jumper is no more than a representation of schools rugby and that the pathway has yet to begin to senior honours.

great in theory, poor in practice.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Or we could treat it for what it is and recognise that it is a bunch of semi developed schoolboy players and not the next great wave of Wallaby salvation.

A serious problem with oz rugby is that, in fact, this is where the salvation is expected to come from: what other development channel does the ARU have? Any kid who leaves school at the minimum age is virtually lost to rugby for several years until he can play colts/grade with success. But these kids have missed some development.

can't recall too many schoolboy coaches with great success in the senior game.

Graham Henry was a school teacher.

 

[crofty]

Nor does McIntyre.

PS - I've just remembered something. When I was at the Oz A game, about 6 weeks ago, I didn't notice any back up flyhalf in the Oz A team so I asked the coach, Mike Wallace of TSS, who was the backup? I said Tuttle? He said yes - either him or fullback Porch. Indeed Tuttle was doing some pre-game drills as first receiver.

Porch and Tuttle have bee added to the touring party; so I've probably answered my own question.
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Lee, Pretty sure it was Porch playing at #10 who orchestrated Farrer's impressive Waratah Shield quarter final performance against Oakhill a couple of weeks ago. He looked a class act and quite accomplished in the fly half role.

 

[GPS fan]

A serious problem with oz rugby is that, in fact, this is where the salvation is expected to come from: what other development channel does the ARU have? Any kid who leaves school at the minimum age is virtually lost to rugby for several years until he can play colts/grade with success. But these kids have missed some development.


Graham Henry was a school teacher.

Alan Jones was also a school teacher.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Alan Jones was also a school teacher.

So was Peter Crittle - who coached a reasonable successful period of Tahs history in the 70's: he later became a barrister.
I was wondering what Haberecht did for a crust so I googled him and got this link: http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...HZWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0eQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3481,2518527

Look how much coverage rugby was getting back then in a Sydney daily paper - clubs and all: you'd be lucky to get that much in a week these days. what they omit to tell anyone about Frawley's move to Uni in one of the articles was that M Hawker was working there and the boss was the coach Steven Anthony - IIRC.

 

[Lee Grant]

Lee, Pretty sure it was Porch playing at #10 who orchestrated Farrer's impressive Waratah Shield quarter final performance against Oakhill a couple of weeks ago. He looked a class act and quite accomplished in the fly half role.

Okey doke - it's just that I had never seen him play there myself. The Oz team was short of back 3 players; they replaced Jones with Kalell (BBC) but added Porch also. I've seen him only at fullback but it looks like they will have him do double duty on tour: playing flyhalf in the odd dirt-tracker game and being a bench guy for test matches to cover 10, 15 and wing.

He's a good player and with the odd injury in the team, or lapse of form from others, could find himself in the test starting team.
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[stonecutter]

great in theory, poor in practice.

Unfortunately the alternative is leaving it as is and continuing to watch performances like saturday nights effort against NZ. I'm sorry, but the importance we place on Australian Schools representation is diminishing our performance. Look at the latest U20 results as all players had a schools jumper as a pre requisite to selection not to mention the influence our adherance to the u19 laws is having on our ability to compete, especially in the forwards. They have to be retrained to crutch bind, push in scrums beyond 3 feet and leg lift in lineouts. Not to mention some of the attitude and egos that are developed within what I consider a flawed and politicised schools system. By all means let it be the start to a rugby career but not a defining moment that can act to preclude other deserving talents also.

In answering others, to my knowledge Alan Jones' senior coaching success came after he left the school system and his school involvement was limited to the school he taught at (Kings) and not ASRU level. Graham Henry is irrelavent to the conversation as New Zealand don't have too much wrong with the way the game is structured and again, left before success happened. IIRC Geoff Mould had some success at schools level and senior levels with Randwick in the 70's.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

. I'm sorry, but the importance we place on Australian Schools representation is diminishing our performance. Look at the latest U20 results as all players had a schools jumper as a pre requisite to selection not to mention the influence our adherance to the u19 laws is having on our ability to compete, especially in the forwards. They have to be retrained to crutch bind, push in scrums beyond 3 feet and leg lift in lineouts. Not to mention some of the attitude and egos that are developed within what I consider a flawed and politicised schools system. By all means let it be the start to a rugby career but not a defining moment that can act to preclude other deserving talents also.

In answering others, to my knowledge Alan Jones' senior coaching success came after he left the school system and his school involvement was limited to the school he taught at (Kings) and not ASRU level. Graham Henry is irrelavent to the conversation as New Zealand don't have too much wrong with the way the game is structured and again, left before success happened. IIRC Geoff Mould had some success at schools level and senior levels with Randwick in the 70's.

You were going Ok with the suggestion that having to pass through the oz schools gateway was creating a problem for senior rugby but I'm afraid you lost me by seeking to differentiate your point re school teachers by reference to the fact that those we named as pretty successful were former school teachers.

There is undoubtedly a significant place for oz schools in the life of oz rugby and it's not their fault if the ARU ,or probably more particularly the s15 franchises, use oz schools as a combine (as they seem to call it in the NFL) to save on the costs of scouting. It's not oz school's fault that the provinces sign the most talented each year, for fear of one of the other provinces getting their claws into them. It's not oz schools fault if those that are signed play about 3 games over the next 2 years while in the academy or, at the other end of ridiculous, are marking up to the likes of Dan Carter first year (week even?) out of school (KB (Kurtley Beale)) and, either way, don't develop quite as they should.

If the ARU centralized contracting some of these issues could be solved, and kids could develop in club rugby as they mostly do in every other country. This would avoid the need to bet the franchise on a 17 year old kid.







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[oldref]

Unfortunately the alternative is leaving it as is and continuing to watch performances like saturday nights effort against NZ. I'm sorry, but the importance we place on Australian Schools representation is diminishing our performance. Look at the latest U20 results as all players had a schools jumper as a pre requisite to selection not to mention the influence our adherance to the u19 laws is having on our ability to compete, especially in the forwards. They have to be retrained to crutch bind, push in scrums beyond 3 feet and leg lift in lineouts. Not to mention some of the attitude and egos that are developed within what I consider a flawed and politicised schools system. By all means let it be the start to a rugby career but not a defining moment that can act to preclude other deserving talents also.

In answering others, to my knowledge Alan Jones' senior coaching success came after he left the school system and his school involvement was limited to the school he taught at (Kings) and not ASRU level. Graham Henry is irrelavent to the conversation as New Zealand don't have too much wrong with the way the game is structured and again, left before success happened. IIRC Geoff Mould had some success at schools level and senior levels with Randwick in the 70's.

According to the Chris Master's biography, Alan Jones was also a coach at TGS and BGS with some success but that was in the late 60s and early 70s before the more formal schoolboy representative program was formulated.

I agree with Stonecutter that our strict adherence to u19 laws has been a major detriment to Australian rugby development. One has to wonder why are we the ones out of step with the rest of the world and would seem to have an almost direct correlation to our scrummaging issues.

 

[Lee Grant]

I agree with Stonecutter that our strict adherence to u19 laws has been a major detriment to Australian rugby development. One has to wonder why are we the ones out of step with the rest of the world and would seem to have an almost direct correlation to our scrummaging issues.

What nation does not use strict adherence to the IRB U/19 laws?

You're right.
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[oldref]

What nation does not use strict adherence to the IRB U/19 laws?

You're right.
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Lee - to my knowledge, Australia is the only country which has its own variations to the IRB u19 laws and these are published in the law books which are distributed to referees. I know NZ and England u19 games are played under the IRB laws having done games in both places. I understand that the Australian variations came about as a result of some legal cases as duty of care arising from injuries during games some years ago.

The real paradox comes out in representative football. The schoolboy internationals and national championships (and international u19 games) are played under IRB laws but the domestic competitions including Colts and 1stXVs are not. How can that be explained?