Australian Schoolboys & National Championships 2012

[stonecutter]

You were going Ok with the suggestion that having to pass through the oz schools gateway was creating a problem for senior rugby but I'm afraid you lost me by seeking to differentiate your point re school teachers by reference to the fact that those we named as pretty successful were former school teachers.

There is undoubtedly a significant place for oz schools in the life of oz rugby and it's not their fault if the ARU ,or probably more particularly the s15 franchises, use oz schools as a combine (as they seem to call it in the NFL) to save on the costs of scouting. It's not oz school's fault that the provinces sign the most talented each year, for fear of one of the other provinces getting their claws into them. It's not oz schools fault if those that are signed play about 3 games over the next 2 years while in the academy or, at the other end of ridiculous, are marking up to the likes of Dan Carter first year (week even?) out of school (KB (Kurtley Beale)) and, either way, don't develop quite as they should.

If the ARU centralized contracting some of these issues could be solved, and kids could develop in club rugby as they mostly do in every other country. This would avoid the need to bet the franchise on a 17 year old kid.


The point was that they weren't at the forefront of coaching the Australian Schools teams whilst still teachers and therefore weren't fascillitating their knowledge onto the best players of that time. Geoff Mould however, IIRC had a large role in the Ella's and other Matraville/Randwick players development and then also coached with success at senior level soon after. I'm not deriding Jones or Henry's records or talent, but stating that they had limited coaching contact with rep school players/teams when employed as teachers. I just think we place far too much importance on schoolboys who in many cases don't continue to develop to the anticipated levels, therefore creating our talent chooklotto approach of the provinces and this filters on to the national side. Outside of the Reds great year of 2011 I'll let our last decade of provincial and international results speak for themselves.





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[stonecutter]

What nation does not use strict adherence to the IRB U/19 laws?

You're right.
.

My thanks to Old Ref for explaining these facts to both yourself and Inside Shoulder. Why do you think we struggle at tournaments against opposition who have been coached and play to laws far closer to the international rules? Recall how devestating last years visiting English team was particularly up front.

Were you correcting yourself when saying Your'e right? I'm confused now.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Lee - to my knowledge, Australia is the only country which has its own variations to the IRB u19 laws and these are published in the law books which are distributed to referees. I know NZ and England u19 games are played under the IRB laws having done games in both places. I understand that the Australian variations came about as a result of some legal cases as duty of care arising from injuries during games some years ago.

The real paradox comes out in representative football. The schoolboy internationals and national championships (and international u19 games) are played under IRB laws but the domestic competitions including Colts and 1stXVs are not. How can that be explained?

Which 1stXVs are not played under the u19 variation?
Colts is not an u19 comp, is it?


the following link is to the IRBs laws website:
http://www.irb.com/mm/Document/LawsRegs/0/UNDER19VARIATIONS_4514.pdf

my iPad/iphone app also released by th IRB (which I highly recommend for the purposes of conclusively establishing what a law is while at the ground, in the office, on GGR or over breakfast!) contains the u19 variations in this form.

As a matter of structure, as I understand it, these are the laws that by force of the opening words apply to all u19 games everywhere in the world. The laws and applicable variations are, I thought, required to be adhered to by member nations unless there is a dispensation, which is usually granted only for experimental purposes and not in relation to laws directed at safety. (I am told that when, internationally, it was permissible to kick out on the full anywhere, Australia only permitted it in the "25": this was known as the "Australian dispensation").

If different laws are applied in NZ that could be by virtue of a local dispensation. However the following website suggests that in (from?) 2011 the position re scrums in NZ was generally the same: http://www.nzrugby.co.nz/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=tVXj7Hh-JyU=&tabid=1092

The absence of an explanatory pre amble makes me fairly confident that this document was not reflecting any recent change to the NZ position. The introduction seems to me to make it clear that NZ schools v anyone would be u19 scrum law variations.

One of the difficulties here is that it hasn't been made clear what laws were being played in NZ or which laws Stonecutter was particularly referring to.

However, I agree (and I think this is what Lee meant) that a problem with our scrummaging is these laws and if countries have dispensation from applying them that explains the disparity. They should not, however, be jettisoned under any circumstances, in particular the limitation on the push: in my view this is the best law in the book for the safety of kids. It is not always thoroughly policed!


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[Man on the hill]

Which 1stXVs are not played under the u19 variation?
Colts is not an u19 comp, is it?

GPS, CAS & ISA are all U19.

3rd grade colts is U19

there might also be a subbies U19 colts competition

 

[redhead]

New Thread for the End of Season Tour, or just continue with this one?

Can't recall if the tour dates have been published or not.
Here they are off the ARU website:

The Australian Schoolboys touring party will travel to Fiji for two fixtures.
22 September vs Fijian President’s XV in Nadi
25 September vs Fijian Schools in Lautoka

The squad will then travel to New Zealand.
29 September vs New Zealand Barbarians in Auckland
2 October vs Samoan Schools in Hamilton
6 October vs New Zealand Schools in Auckland

As far as I know at least 2 players from Australia Schoolboy Touring Squad were born in NZ (Fakosilea, Korczyk). They allegiance to "green and gold" will be put to test, no doubt about this. Can someone explain when do you have to declare which side are you in?
By the way I will be in NZ during the tour so I could send some hot news.

 

[en_force_er]

On the subject of u19 laws, the way a 2nd row has to bind a prop under these laws in ridiculous.

Seriously, not only is it awkward but it's such a weak position for a shoulder joint to be in. That's not even discussing how much it depowers the scrum, maybe this plays a part in how much we suck at scrummaging?

The lineout lifting I can take or leave, pending stats on the subject.

 

[Tahtrajic]

I think one of the biggest problems is the scrum collapses the boys get when the ref's stop them from pushing after the 1.5m I'm seeing a lot of the boys getting up holding necks and shoulders

 

[Hugh Jarse]

As far as I know at least 2 players from Australia Schoolboy Touring Squad were born in NZ (Fakosilea, Korczyk). They allegiance to "green and gold" will be put to test, no doubt about this. Can someone explain when do you have to declare which side are you in?
By the way I will be in NZ during the tour so I could send some hot news.

And so what? No different to mungoballers playing for the schoolboys. ASRU is not a long term development tool of ARU.

Plenty of full time professional players that have played for the Men in Gold have been citizens of other countries.

 

[en_force_er]

Plenty of Aussies you come across in rugby were born in New Zealand. Most of them split their allegiance pretty clean down the middle but if they were playing for an Aussie Rep side they'd only be looking for one thing.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

At last census there were about 10% of NZ's population over here (400k vs 4m), and the migration is all one way.

Would you want to go back?

The kiwis over here are here to stay including their children. They will represent their adopted country with pride in the Wallaby emblem, cause there is no way they will get a gig with the Darkness if they are not living over there.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

At last census there were about 10% of NZ's population over here (400k vs 4m), and the migration is all one way.

Would you want to go back?

hell yeah: great food, great wine.......a dedicated rugby channel.
The only problem would be how to earn enough money living there to afford their produce.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Poor surf, bad beaches, no summer, beer is lolly water, petrol price, unemployment, bad weather, earthquakes, cold.

You can buy good NZ wine over here with the extra $ we earn. You can fly in and fly out if you want some kiwiing up for a week or two. Why stay?

Rugby channel - I'll give you that. The cross we have to bear.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

[]Poor surf: just gives you skin cancer
bad beaches: in my shape I don't see the need to go to beach - anyway if the urge overcame me oz is only 3 hours away!
no summer = more top class rugby in which future and past all blacks try to maim each other legitimately: when I see the way they play against each other I know that deep down they must like us!
beer is lolly water: I've had some good micro brews - stein lager pure is ok
petrol price: go diesel ;-)
unemployment: self employed
bad weather: Pinot noir
earthquakes: exciting
cold: Pinot

Don't tell them but I actually think the best kiwis are still over there: I like them but I haven't been since RWC 2011 and that might have spoilt their somewhat reluctant humility.


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[Man on the hill]

From memory, Australia was the first to introduce specific U19 laws; but it's only relatively recently that the IRB standardized them. Now as with pathways, there is a "standard" set of laws.

 

[CTPE]

Kings v View game today saw both Lalakai Foketi and Mitch Whiteley leave the field in the first half with what looked like serious injuries - Foketi suffering a possible fractured jaw and Whiteley a knee injury.

 

[Lee Grant]

We heard that through the grapevine at Hunters Hill today CTPE. Quite apart from the trauma to the players, it is a bit of a shock to Oz Schools rugby.

Whiteley is the captain and a bloody skilful player at the schools level and Foketi was arguably the best back for Oz Schools v Tongan Schools at St Marys - what a year he is having (in games I have seen). If they can't tour it will be a huge negative, but even worse would be non-availabilty, of Rorke, who was injured last week because is our only elite power runner.

What is his injury prognosis?
.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Crikey, is that 3 from the squad that may be ruled out through injury? Any news of QLD injuries?

Pretty sure the selectors have shadows selected, but at what point do we get beyond the shadows to Senor Quixote's windmills?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

We heard that through the grapevine at Hunters Hill today CTPE. Quite apart from the trauma to the players, it is a bit of a shock to Oz Schools rugby.

Whiteley is the captain and a bloody skilful player at the schools level and Foketi was arguably the best back for Oz Schools v Tongan Schools at St Marys - what a year he is having (in games I have seen). If they can't tour it will be a huge negative, but even worse would be non-availabilty, of Rorke, who was injured last week because is our only elite power runner.

What is his injury prognosis?
.

It must make it difficult to deal with for the kids - telling them they're out then telling them they're back in and, by the way, we never doubted that you have what it takes.....

 

[Hugh Jarse]

We will have no problem dishing the Darkness School boys up for the second year in a row if this very important sports news extract is anything to go by. It is an extract from todays NZ Herald on line, and goes to show where their priorities really lie:

LAWN BOWLS


One-shot wins were the order of the day after some close contests in the Auckland inter-school semifinals at the Remuera BC.
Tied at one game all, the match between Papatoetoe High and St Peter's College was decided in the A pairs' battle. Playing the last end Papatoetoe led 12 shots to eight but with St Peter's holding four shots with only the last bowl to be played. The Papatoetoe skip calmly drew third shot for a 12-11 win.
The clash between Auckland Grammar and Dilworth was also tight. Playing the last end scores were locked 8-8 before a feeler gauge measure gave AGS shot and a 9-8 victory

This breaking news is immediately prior to the Rugby section under college sport.

Source: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10826919

 

[gilbert15]

any other players out of the touring squad due to injury??