Australian Schoolboys & National Championship 2010

[Lindommer]

Rugby is unique among Australian sports where the elite junior pathways go down the district route rather than the schools one. I suppose that reflects rugby's middle class roots as a boutique sport in this country. For me that shows up rugby's great weakness in Oz: it's too exclusive and needs to reach out to more "ordinary" young Australians.

I speak from a position of experience here as, on one hand, I attended one of the big rugby-playing private schools in Sydney while at the moment I'm involved with one of the less-fashionable clubs in Sydney's west with very few private schoolboys. The fact a lot of young players' parents feel their sons have to get their rugby start via an expensive private school is a great shame. We simply MUST become a more inclusive sport. Having more schools carnivals isn't going to improve junior rugby: at an individual school level the CHS teams as a whole can't compete with the big private schools as they don't have the depth. And when's it going to be played?, the private schools will be loathe to give up their Saturday slots.

 

[Lee Grant]

Good post Lindommer.

Outside of the sports high schools it's hard for CHS type high schools that play rugby to compete with the big rugby schools. Good young local players who would normally end up in a high school in the district pop up somewhere else - but let's no go there on this thread.


Changing that would be like going against the power of a tide at the beach and no amount of posts on a rugby forum or newspaper articles will change it.


I have mixed feelings on the matter. Having watched so much GPS rugby I can see the benefits of elitism to the rugby game in Australia. It's a resource that is a pillar of the game.


Before folks start cracking their knuckles to use their keyboards to point out that I have overlooked the rugby 'cost' of such a view, I haven't. I have deplored the effects of elitism for about 12 years on rugby forums and long before Zavos wrote about it in his book; but I would hate to think of our game if private schools rugby, even with it's unsavoury recruitment practices, did not exist. [But let's not go there.]


Whilst they are not private schools, I take into account the existence of state sports high schools that offer rugby union as a sport to the top end of school sports stars, as part of the present 'system'. I wish there were more of them.


For me the the total credits on the ledger are greater than the debits and there is a bigger rugby profit, and dividend, in the end.


If I think that the tide is too great: that good local rugby players may as well get recruited by private schools to get good schools rugby coaching and competition to develop their play, or go to the closest sports high school if they have been spotted to do the same; that thereby they may be saved for rugby union because they have been infected and may not otherwise have been if they were playing at the local high school, (assuming they offered rugby union as a sport) ....... yarda yarda............ I also think that the rugby establishment should do a lot more at the village level to get them playing rugby union in the first place.


If more rugby missionary work is done, especially in places like western Sydney, we will pick up more schools rugby players in the catchment areas. Sure, the best will be recruited by the big schools but if there are enough of them I trust that the rugby alickadoos get smart and throw support behind the likes of Prairiewood, and recognise other schools to be potential rugby outposts and set up rugby programmes there.


Then we can start moving away from elitism, but meantime we need it.

 

[AussieDominance]

Lee - Interesting point about the Sports Schools. A lot of people believe it is destroying CHS. Banding together at Hills SHS and Westfields SHS is weakening competitions such as the Waratah Shield and local school competitions such as the North West Met Competition etc are being weakended along with many other reasons.

The one thing I believe it does well though is give us a chance at keeping some of those dual code playing lads.

The Narrabeen SHS program run by Greg Gerrard collapsed for reasons unknown it did produce a lot more Super 14 calibre players than Hills and Westfields though.

 

[Lee Grant]

I see the point, but I think the answer is a quantum leap in schools player numbers and deriving that from getting more lads playing village junior rugby years before they go to high school. Then the larger state schools, who are not sports high schools, will be able to be more competitive and the comps they are in will become stronger, ipso facto.

We need outposts in the rugby hinterland and they need to be populated. We can't rely on the serendipity of finding the likes of Horne and TPN, who were outside the private and state sports high school system. Bigger numbers will get us more cream than the dumb luck of getting those two. Besides we want more lads playing our sport for more reasons than getting better Super or Wallaby players.

All team games are good for character and life in general and though I follow league also, I think, without any clear evidence, that union can impart better values.

 

[sportsfan]

The team for Wednesday's opener v Samoa is; 1. Neugebauer, 2. Roach, 3. Millar, 4. Browning, 5. Cummins ,6. Cusack, 7.Killingworth, 8. Luani, 9. Donlan, 10. Wylie, 11. F’Sautia, 12. Lutinipulu, 13. Hingano, 14. Crook, 15. Holland.

 

[I like to watch]

where & when do they play?

 

[observer]

That is a strong team. I am tipping a 30+ result to the Aussies. Wylie will feed that potent backline

 

[barbarian]

Interesting Killingworth is at 7, despite playing 6 all season. Anything wrong with Connor?

 

[observer]

where & when do they play?

Wed - 8 September Samoa Schools v Australian Schools St Marys Stadium - St Marys 7:00pm

Wed - 8 September Fiji Schools v NSW Combined Catholic Colleges St Marys Stadium - St Marys 5:30pm

 

[Grandstand]

I see the point, but I think the answer is a quantum leap in schools player numbers and deriving that from getting more lads playing village junior rugby years before they go to high school. Then the larger state schools, who are not sports high schools, will be able to be more competitive and the comps they are in will become stronger, ipso facto.

We need outposts in the rugby hinterland and they need to be populated. We can't rely on the serendipity of finding the likes of Horne and TPN, who were outside the private and state sports high school system. Bigger numbers will get us more cream than the dumb luck of getting those two. Besides we want more lads playing our sport for more reasons than getting better Super or Wallaby players.

All team games are good for character and life in general and though I follow league also, I think, without any clear evidence, that union can impart better values.

Without being racist part of the problem is the racial mix in CHS schools. Our asian and Indian friends are not big on rugby. This is not just an issue for rugby but for society in general as the social makeup of our society pushes towards the arts, academic excellence and the softer sports such as soccer. A tough one to overcome when you are the least popular of the football codes.

 

[qwerty51]

Without being racist part of the problem is the racial mix in CHS schools. Our asian and Indian friends are not big on rugby. This is not just an issue for rugby but for society in general as the social makeup of our society pushes towards the arts, academic excellence and the softer sports such as soccer. A tough one to overcome when you are the least popular of the football codes.

Private schools have bigger mixes of Indians/Asians..

 

[FTS]

Does anybody know if players from Presidents 15 can be available for Schoolboys now? If anyone had a blinder and really stood out? Wouldn't think it could be the case, thought i would check though.

 

[rugbyfan]

Hmm,
Certainly was disappointed in the standard of play in both games. Yes limited prep, yes greasy ball but seriously this was not the near the pinnacle of school boy rugby and to be honest Shore 1's or even Joeys 2nds could have put on a better spectacle.

Thank god it wasnt like the Nationals and you had to pay.

Keary had a blinder and will tour, O Sullivan also deserves a trip on the plane.

No one else grabbed an opportunity like those two boys although Holloway and Davies were putting up their hand and are worth another look in better company.

Stu Goodman was solid without shining and unforunately word from the camp is Hoskins size and effectiveness on the park was compromised by his ego and has Never Tour Again on his passport!

The inside centre from Queensland No 12 (forget his name) had the worst case of superglue I can recall and killed at least 5 opportunities!

I hope Wednesday and Saturday are better for the main team as Im predicting another loss to NZ

Examples? just talking himself up?

 

[Lee Grant]

Does anybody know if players from Presidents 15 can be available for Schoolboys now? If anyone had a blinder and really stood out? Wouldn't think it could be the case, thought i would check though.

The Presidents XV got to play just one game so it would be hard for a lad to press his claims. It would have been theoretically possible for a Pres XV guy to be taken on the Oz Schools tour of NZ, especially if he got crocked before going to the recent Oz Schools tournament.

He may have been known to be a good schools player but the selectors didn't take the risk of picking him for the domestic programme, because they would be gambling that his injury wasn't severe. Then if this overlooked lad came good physically, then got chosen in the Pres XV and played well, he could be considered for the tour. He would be no hope of playing in the 2 domestic Oz Schools matches - tomorrow and on Saturday, and the Oz A Schools game last weekend was their only match of the year.

But I don't think that there is anybody in that category.

Not to the point: but the more likely changes are for fellows like Luke Keary, who killed them in the Oz A game, to get precedence over players in the Oz Ones. On paper the 23 who play tomorrow v Samoa and on Saturday v Fiji will tour. Some Ones players may have to stay home because of injury and it's possible that a Ones player may not tour because of poor form, though that is uncommon.

But if there is an injury tomorrow to an outside back Keary could be suited up come Saturday arvo.

Once they are on tour it doesn't matter beans who was originally picked for the Oz Ones. The 15 and 23 will be chosen on tour form.

 

[Lee Grant]

That is a strong team. I am tipping a 30+ result to the Aussies. Wylie will feed that potent backline

I'm not sold on Wylie, or Donlan for that matter, nor any other 9 or 10 in the country that I have seen, but when I've held such opinions on schools players they invariably prove that my assessment was at fault and not their rugby. I therefore beg leave to post a retraction in the future, if needs be.

The XV does look strong. I've seen all of them play except the LHP from WA and all the forwards are tough lads and confrontational, and all the backs from 11 to 15 are game breakers though my knowledge of Holland is as a 13.

Looking at the XV makes me realise how few Qlders are in the team though they did have 12 of the Oz A 23 last Saturday.

I'm looking forward to seeing reserves: flyhalf Dion Taumata from Keebra Park High School and Sam Resier from Greg Terrace who I haven't seen before. Taumata is reportedly a gifted all round flyhalf and, as I mentioned on another thread: Reiser was overlooked for the 2 Qld teams but was chosen for the Oz Schools Ones after being included in the Combined States team. That's a good story and so is another one I mentioned - last year he was playing in the midfield of the GT 16Bs.

 

[Lee Grant]

unforunately word from the camp is Hoskins size and effectiveness on the park was compromised by his ego and has Never Tour Again on his passport!

That's bad news. I don't know the lad but I was talking to his parents on Saturday and they are lovely people. They said he has a burning desire to be a professional rugby player; so maybe he's too intense. I've heard the same story about Stu Goodman who is said to have a whiff of Dallaglio over the top intensity.

Maybe these reports are not accurate and even if they are I trust that they'll get the right mentoring to deal with the negatives of intensity, otherwise our game would have failed them.

 

[Bowside]

Just on the topic of junior pathways. I've thought long and hard about this and I've come to the concluison that a sort of third way is the best solution at this point in time.

Now I dont know enough about the nsw system to comment, yet if I was to restructure Adolescent rugby in Qld it would look something like this:

Guys play for Junior Village Clubs from u6 to u15's

8 district rep teams are then picked from purely club players to play in a QLD u15 carnival. This provides an opurtunity for scouts to pick out blokes for junior reds and nts.

Then for u16's players move to one of the senior clubs and play in a comp that mimics the senior/colts comp. Players then progress to play for the clubs u18's and then onto colts and grade rugby. As most guys still play club as well as school in u16, a series of rep trial games could be played and teams for the national carnival then selected.

Scrap the Qld Schoolboys side and replace with a Qld u18 side. The trial games for QLD u18 would continue with the current 6 team format - 2 GPS, 2 AIC and 2 Combined Schools/Clubs. In QLD, if guys play for club and school in U18 they usually play the first 5 games for club, then play the school season, then comeback to there club for the last 5 games.

The system is partly based on how the league boys run their juniors. They just have U16, U18 and then colts. If it works for them i don't see why it would'nt work for us.

 

[Doc]

Sam Resier from Greg Terrace who I haven't seen before. Taumata is reportedly a gifted all round flyhalf and, as I mentioned on another thread: Reiser was overlooked for the 2 Qld teams but was chosen for the Oz Schools Ones after being included in the Combined States team. That's a good story and so is another one I mentioned - last year he was playing in the midfield of the GT 16Bs.

Hope he gets some decent time, would love to hear how he goes at this level. Not flashy but hard worker who makes very few mistakes. Sensational lineout jumper, at least he was for CS. Basically nullified any penalties awarded to the opposition.

 

[Doc]

Scrap the Qld Schoolboys side and replace with a Qld u18 side. The trial games for QLD u18 would continue with the current 6 team format - 2 GPS, 2 AIC and 2 Combined Schools/Clubs. In QLD, if guys play for club and school in U18 they usually play the first 5 games for club, then play the school season, then comeback to there club for the last 5 games.

You have one problem. Besides the fact that Schoolboys is U18 and the only folks ineligible are those who are no longer attending school, there is no u18 at club level. U17 falls under the BJRU, under 18 is actually u19 in senior clubs.

 

[NorthernSon]

Interesting Killingworth is at 7, despite playing 6 all season. Anything wrong with Connor?

Hmmm, I applaud the shift of Killingworth to 7 as he is the NSW premier flanker on mobility and raw agression and his height at around 185cm sees him best placed for succeeding in the future at 7.

Connor has probably exceeded his own expectations when linking with Kings in YR11 and has done very well for himself by playing with a quality pack at school/ GPS and nationals which no doubt has made the pathway to get to this level of representation achievable. His size and approach to physical contests unfortunately were exposed over the GPS season and are likely to hinder his longer term prospects in the 15 man game.

The posts about the extensive and inclusive NZ selection process highlights why we have been getting our bottoms spanked by NZ too often at Schoolboys and Under 20's.

To quote Deans " We need Diamonds not crystal" to win physical encounters and the recent Aus Schoolboy sides and u/20's havent had Diamonds at 7. Michael Hooper is a Diamond but was unfortunately missing in the 2008/09 Aus schoolboy campaigns and the 2010 U/20's through selection or injury.

The mould of future rep 7's has been cast by a real Diamond in Pockock and the Hooper and Killingworth types are essential to future success against NZ in schoolboys and 20's. Wish Boyd well on Wednesday and would love to see him play there on Saturday night.