Australian Rugby / RA

[Bullrush]

You said Australian teams improved after the Force were cut…

They didn’t…

You pointed out the Brumbies success, despite them not benefiting from the Forde being cut…

You said Australia slid in the rankings since the Rebels were introduced in 2011, ignoring an actual lift in that period and one of the most successful periods for Australian Super Rugby teams between 2011-2015…

Anything else I missed?

It seems like an easy, yet condescending solution provided some Kiwis believing it will simply fix Australian rugby while ignoring so many larger important factors that have seen the game in decline since we had three teams.

I put forward to you that Super Rugby has been in steady decline since the early years and there’s only been one constant factor in that time…

Five Kiwi teams.

How has one of the main dominant partners in this alliance not expanded their professional footprint in almost thirty years?

That sounds completely devo to me…

It's not my fault that you are simple so yes - you did miss a lot.

Just because there is a period of time before the full effect of something takes place doesn't mean it didn't happen. That is just dumb.

The Brumbies don't necessarily need players from the Force to benefit from them being cut. There was basically a whole team of professional players who weren't up to Super Rugby standard. That is money Australia didn't have to spend and it puts the pressure back on players everywhere else to be better because there aren't as many contracts available across the board.

This is why many older players say that adding teams has hurt Australian rugby. Because they know the effect that it had. I had this conversation with a player who played in 2 Super Rugby Au franchises and there are a number of interviews with e-players who say the same thing. But sure - you know better.

Why does NZ need to expand their footprint? This is dumb thinking. Why would NZ make the same mistakes Australia has?

 

[Dismal Pillock]

It's just an endless loop of about 30-odd pages worth of content and debate though. I'm sure it could be eloquently captured in one of @Dismal Pillock's flowchart masterpieces.

That happened 10 years ago. No need to update it because, as you say, the topic is stuck on an endless 30-page loop.

 

[Rebel man]

2 x RWC
4 x Super Rugby titles
10 x ranked in Top 3 countries.

Australia didn't really drop out of the Top 3 until 2015.

So in the last 25 years, Australia was easily one of the best rugby nations - it's only been in the last 10 that there has been a big drop off.

We won one World Cup buddy while in super rugby

 

[Tomthumb]

Grateful?

I'm simply pointing out the facts cos hoggy doesn't know them. The last 25 years have not been all terrible. In fact, they include a 15 year period that almost every other rugby nation would die for.

And instead of wanting to return to being a Top 3 country, some people are longing to be the Super Rugby AU champions.

People are longing for any success at any level. I don't think NZ really get how demoralizing it is for no Australian Super team even make the final in over a decade, No Bledisloe in over 2 decades, pool stage exit at a World Cup etc.

 

[Slim 293]

It's not my fault that you are simple so yes - you did miss a lot.

Just because there is a period of time before the full effect of something takes place doesn't mean it didn't happen. That is just dumb.

The Brumbies don't necessarily need players from the Force to benefit from them being cut. There was basically a whole team of professional players who weren't up to Super Rugby standard. That is money Australia didn't have to spend and it puts the pressure back on players everywhere else to be better because there aren't as many contracts available across the board.

This is why many older players say that adding teams has hurt Australian rugby. Because they know the effect that it had. I had this conversation with a player who played in 2 Super Rugby Au franchises and there are a number of interviews with e-players who say the same thing. But sure - you know better.

Why does NZ need to expand their footprint? This is dumb thinking. Why would NZ make the same mistakes Australia has?

Right…

Sorry if I’m being a bit simple…

But the Brumbies improved because the players felt they had to do better after the Force were cut?

But the other three teams’ players didn’t get the memo?

The Brumbies improvement wasn’t anything to do with coaching appointments and smart recruitment in that period?

No, it was the team numbers…

 

[Bullrush]

We won one World Cup buddy while in super rugby

Sorry - that's still one more than France, Ireland, Scotland and Argentina who are all currently ranked ahead of Australia

 

[Bullrush]

Right…

Sorry if I’m being a bit simple…

But the Brumbies improved because the players felt they had to do better after the Force were cut?

But the other three teams’ players didn’t get the memo?

The Brumbies improvement wasn’t anything to do with coaching appointments and smart recruitment in that period?

No, it was the team numbers…

Talk to player mate and you might understand....

 

[Bullrush]

People are longing for any success at any level. I don't think NZ really get how demoralizing it is for no Australian Super team even make the final in over a decade, No Bledisloe in over 2 decades, pool stage exit at a World Cup etc.

So would you have any cross-over games and if so, do you see them being any different in result to what we saw in 2021?

 

[hoggy]

Grateful?

I'm simply pointing out the facts cos hoggy doesn't know them. The last 25 years have not been all terrible. In fact, they include a 15 year period that almost every other rugby nation would die for.

And instead of wanting to return to being a Top 3 country, some people are longing to be the Super Rugby AU champions.

Yeah, because I'm just an ex Kiwi that has been living in Australia for 30 years now and I have followed rugby since a toddler (you sort of did that growing up in NZ) and go back for business a couple times a year now, I noticed that is changing somewhat.

And I have made a few observations about the Australian sporting market, watched a couple of other sporting codes since I have been here.

There is only one problem with your obviously high level of intellectual perception of how the game should move forward in Australia that I see with my ignorant knowledge of rugby. That is where do those hordes of Wallaby rugby supporters & players come from because in my humble opinion they are more likely to be playing or watching other sporting codes.

 

[AdelaideRugby84]

I think in hindsight (maybe even at the time, I'm sure there were plenty of people opposed to it) the move to 18 teams broke the comp.

Probably should've stayed at 12, it went full potato after that.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

ex Kiwi

 

[Tomthumb]

So would you have any cross-over games and if so, do you see them being any different in result to what we saw in 2021?

You're acting like 2021 was an outlier when it was simply the norm. We have been getting reamed by Kiwi sides for over a decade

 

[Bullrush]

Yeah, because I'm just an ex Kiwi that has been living in Australia for 30 years now and I have followed rugby since a toddler (you sort of did that growing up in NZ) and go back for business a couple times a year now, I noticed that is changing somewhat.

And I have made a few observations about the Australian sporting market, watched a couple of other sporting codes since I have been here.

There is only one problem with your obviously high level of intellectual perception of how the game should move forward in Australia that I see with my ignorant knowledge of rugby. That is where do those hordes of Wallaby rugby supporters & players come from because in my humble opinion they are more likely to be playing or watching other sporting codes.

Has rugby never been popular in Australia? You seem to think the last 25 years of rugby in Australia has been disastrous and I was pointing out that it clearly isn't the case.

 

[Bullrush]

You're acting like 2021 was an outlier when it was simply the norm. We have been getting reamed by Kiwi sides for over a decade

You're not answering the question.

Would you have the cross-over games and do you think results would stay the same?

 

[Rebel man]

Sorry - that's still one more than France, Ireland, Scotland and Argentina who are all currently ranked ahead of Australia

And winning one WC a quarter of a century ago confirms that we are somehow better in Super Rugby. lol you don’t have a clue mate.

 

[hoggy]

Has rugby never been popular in Australia? You seem to think the last 25 years of rugby in Australia has been disastrous and I was pointing out that it clearly isn't the case.

It has been disastrous because it has failed to keep pace in even the most basic KPI's with its two main competitors the AFL/NRL, which will ultimately lead to the small issue of regardless of Wallaby success, it will mean little when no one gives a shit.

 

[Tomikin]

Do you really think fan engagement will go up? Fan engagement went up in 2021 because we were coming out of Covid. Engagement went up in NZ as well. And it has gone back to normal now that people are allowed out of their house and can go to events whenever they like. What happens to fan engagement when the Super Rugby Au Champion can't beat 4 out of 5 of the Super Rugby Aotearoa teams?

Again, if 'more teams more players more engagement better talent' was true then how does NZ and Australia have 5 RWC between us while England, France and Japan - who all have more clubs and registered players according to Wikipedia - have only 1?

Please....show me which other rugby nation has this self-funded domestic comp that needs no top-down assistance (or billionaires/corporate finance) and how playing domestically makes for better players and teams? If you want to throw out the model that has been successful in the past, where is the new model that you think we need to copy?

Leaving Super Rugby doesn't automatically fuck NZ but it will definitely fuck Oz. But it's just nonsense to keep talking like it's going happen because the parties are committed till 2030 anyway....

We agree to disagree,

 

[Bullrush]

And winning one WC a quarter of a century ago confirms that we are somehow better in Super Rugby. lol you don’t have a clue mate.

Who said that?

That's a strawman mate....you don't even know what I was responding to with the RWC success so if you don't keep up with the conversation, stay quiet LOL

 

[Bullrush]

It has been disastrous because it has failed to keep pace in even the most basic KPI's with its two main competitors the AFL/NRL, which will ultimately lead to the small issue of regardless of Wallaby success, it will mean little when no one gives a shit.

I would tend to agree but probably say it's been more in the last 10-15 years rather than 25 and it also depends on what you think the KPIs are.

Super Rugby and the NRL/AFL are not apples to apples comparisons and while they are competitors in one sense, they aren't equal. The other 2 comps are the absolute pinnacles of their codes while Super Rugby is not.

 

[Slim 293]

Talk to player mate and you might understand....

Ummmm..... is that your attempt at evidence?!

I think we've reached the zenith of this discussion...