Australian Rugby / RA

[HooperPocockSmith]

The location of the teams isn't an issue. It's the financial viability of supporting 5 teams with a decent level of depth.

And if two teams were on the chopping block, the most pragmatic choices would be the Force and the Rebels. Rugby is losing ground in its heartland. Is it really time to prioritise growing the game in cities where there is quite clearly a dominant sporting force?

 

[Members Section]

And if two teams were on the chopping block, the most pragmatic choices would be the Force and the Rebels. Rugby is losing ground in its heartland. Is it really time to prioritise growing the game in cities where there is quite clearly a dominant sporting force?

So are you actually then going to attend a tahs or wallabies game?

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

So are you actually then going to attend a tahs or wallabies game?

I'm a Tahs member and attend all Wallabies games in Sydney.

I'd love to have a team in every major city in Australia. Heck, why not have 2 divisions with promotion and relegation? Let's sign all the best players in the world and have Antoine Du Pont playing for the Adelaide Harlequins.

We don't have the money to support 5 teams, never mind a domestic competition. Unless of course, we want to move to a semi-professional model. Something similar to the Currie Cup or ITM Cup. Then we can sit back and watch the player drain.

 

[Crashy]

I don't mean to put a cat among the pigeons with this, but just want to put this out there.

I don't buy the claim that Australia doesn't produce enough (good) players to sustain five professional franchises. The problem is not that we lack the players, it's that we lack the money to keep the players.

Australians play in clubs all over the world. Go onto the Wiki pages for English, French, and Japanese clubs and look how many Aussies there are. We are the third biggest producer of international rugby talent, after SA and NZ.

Last year I spent a bit of time recording all the Aussie players in Super, Top 14, URC, Rugby League One (Japan), Premiership (England), etc. For a bit of fun I made 12 clubs and allocated players to them based on their club / school loyalties (to the best of my knowledge). I am not advocating for the creation of this competition. We cannot afford it. But it does illustrate the broader point—there is plenty of talent in Australia.

This sheet is very rough, particularly in terms of formatting. I never finished it. But I think it gets the point across: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zBXnwKN_nlJBfge17EVNORkn7gLxqniGiqwXuhJTisE/edit?usp=sharing

This is, of course, not a definitive argument in favour of the five franchise model. They are, after all, only as good as the players they can afford, and in a context of scarce resources we may need to triage. But I am really sick of hearing the claim that we lack the talent. The question is how we can inject more money into the game and get our development systems and talent identification sorted. Unfortunately we are in a death spiral right now—bad performance --> lack of interest --> lack of revenue --> lack of talent --> more bad performances. No Tattarang or Private Equity coming to our rescue.

It'd be great if we could get a bit of money from the rich people we're constantly told are the games' only fans...

been saying this for years. Great post.

 

[Dan54]

One of the problems is maybe there not enough money to keep the players, but then use some of the money to play overseas players to try and strengthen the teams? The answer is unplatable to many, but obvious if Aus wants a reasonably high level of a comp to help produce test players. I strongly suspect biting the bullet and saying let's just suffer the hardship for a few years is going to work. The Lions tour and 27WC is seemingly going to be a couple of golden bullets, make sure the Wallabies are in someway cometitive so the bullets don't get rusted.

 

[Members Section]

I'm a Tahs member and attend all Wallabies games in Sydney.

I'd love to have a team in every major city in Australia. Heck, why not have 2 divisions with promotion and relegation? Let's sign all the best players in the world and have Antoine Du Pont playing for the Adelaide Harlequins.

We don't have the money to support 5 teams, never mind a domestic competition. Unless of course, we want to move to a semi-professional model. Something similar to the Currie Cup or ITM Cup. Then we can sit back and watch the player drain.

no one else in the most populated state does, you cant even sell out bankwest.

When I went to the beasties v randwick game last yr every single person I spoke to at the game said they weren't going & these are the ppl you want to protect????? not the 90k that rocked up the next week

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

no one else in the most populated state does, you cant even sell out bankwest.

When I went to the beasties v randwick game last yr every single person I spoke to at the game said they weren't going & these are the ppl you want to protect????? not the 90k that rocked up the next week

I'm not really sure what argument you're trying to make.

I'm not denying that people have lost interest in rugby in Brisbane and Sydney. But the two largest/best club competitions are in Sydney and Brisbane (evidenced by your visit to that game), so it makes sense that two professional franchises would be based in each city.

The 90k at the MCG would've rocked up regardless of how well the rebels were going. The ABs are a global brand, and Australia has a large Kiwi diaspora.

It all comes down to $$$. If we want the best players in Australia, we have to remunerate them accordingly. This simply isn't possible with 5 teams and the current state of the Super Rugby competition.

 

[Members Section]

I'm not really sure what argument you're trying to make.

I'm not denying that people have lost interest in rugby in Brisbane and Sydney. But the two largest/best club competitions are in Sydney and Brisbane (evidenced by your visit to that game), so it makes sense that two professional franchises would be based in each city.

The 90k at the MCG would've rocked up regardless of how well the rebels were going. The ABs are a global brand, and Australia has a large Kiwi diaspora.

It all comes down to $$$. If we want the best players in Australia, we have to remunerate them accordingly. This simply isn't possible with 5 teams and the current state of the Super Rugby competition.

you want dump teams & send the talent to other programs, then get rid of the tahs no one in sydney supports them or the wallabies. The tahs dont win & have been irrelevant for double as long as the force & rebels have been around

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

you want dump teams & send the talent to other programs, then get rid of the tahs no one in sydney supports them or the wallabies. The tahs dont win & have been irrelevant for double as long as the force & rebels have been around

So what does your ideal competition look like?

 

[Members Section]

So what does your ideal competition look like?

we have been over this over & over & over & over again SRpac is not working for either nation! go back & look at the threads from 4 years ago its the same stupid arguments

i'm not arguing with some bloke who has jumped on in a world cup yr comes on here sprokes nonsense because they think rugby finished at the anzac bridge then will disrepair from here as quick as they came on here

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

So, we're basing our credibility on how long we've spent on an online forum? I've been involved in the game for over 20 years. I'm entitled to my opinion.

Let's blow up the Super Rugby as we know it and put together a semi-professional national comp. Let's see how long the Edmeds, and the Wilsons (Reds) stick around for.

At least tell me how you plan to finance a professional competition in Australia with approximately ten teams that would provide a sufficient volume of games that test players require.

 

[Members Section]

So, we're basing our credibility on how long we've spent on an online forum? I've been involved in the game for over 20 years. I'm entitled to my opinion.

Let's blow up the Super Rugby as we know it and put together a semi-professional national comp. Let's see how long the Edmeds, and the Wilsons (Reds) stick around for.

At least tell me how you plan to finance a professional competition in Australia with approximately ten teams that would provide a sufficient volume of games that test players require.

our best players arnt staying atm! that all started a decade ago, without the rebels & the force there is no academy's then your shrinking your player base of which the best piss off to france & japan anyway.

every sydney centric person just thinks get rid of 2 sides & we'll compete with nz, news flashed apart from 1 yr you never have & that yr there was 5 aus teams & your think that some how your the central point to a NATIONS team yet you dont even support it when its in your back yard you want cross the anzac bridge to watch them.

all the best talent in the country is out there & your refuse to do anything about it.

get rid of 2 teams then you might get a try closer to a nz side of which those players will pull on a black jersey & are also in decline.

we dont need to paint over cracks we need to bring the whole bloody thing down & build again

 

[Highlander35]

The Rugby landscape isn't the same as it was in the 90s. Cuts put a band aid on the issue for 2-5 years then expose the remaining gaps as individuals who miss financial support in their U20s years get picked off by French Academies, and others in their early-to-mid 20s get professional opportunities at Japanese and MLR level, or use a dual nationality to pick up a URC/English Prem contract, or maybe a Drua or Pasifika one.

 

[Braveheart81]

The location of the teams isn't an issue. It's the financial viability of supporting 5 teams with a decent level of depth.

It's not that simple.

With less teams we have less revenue.

I don't think the quality of the teams improves substantially by reducing the numbers by a couple of teams.

 

[stillmissit]

A mate of mine who I watched the wales game with this morning made an interesting statement. His view is that we are losing players due in part to the loss of male teachers and via that, the loss of rugby being played in many state schools.
My view is we need to plan on reality and that means identifying talent early and doing what is necessary to keep them. I also believe we need to have all our junior players at clubs rather than in Academies. There has been no perceptible improvement in our rugby skillsets from players being away from clubs. We need to ensure that every club has 2 coaches, one to run the grade and the other to focus on skillset improvement.
We cannot have Wallaby players making tackles like Ulese did last week, that is how players get broken necks by poor tackling skills.

 

[HooperPocockSmith]

our best players arnt staying atm! that all started a decade ago, without the rebels & the force there is no academy's then your shrinking your player base of which the best piss off to france & japan anyway.

every sydney centric person just thinks get rid of 2 sides & we'll compete with nz, news flashed apart from 1 yr you never have & that yr there was 5 aus teams & your think that some how your the central point to a NATIONS team yet you dont even support it when its in your back yard you want cross the anzac bridge to watch them.

all the best talent in the country is out there & your refuse to do anything about it.

get rid of 2 teams then you might get a try closer to a nz side of which those players will pull on a black jersey & are also in decline.

we dont need to paint over cracks we need to bring the whole bloody thing down & build again

A few things.

- I think it’s a fairly rational argument to s that reducing the number of teams will lead to an improvement in the quality of players in the remaining teams. Assuming of course they are reallocated.

- I think you’re a little obsessed with attendance figures in Sydney. Whether you like it or not, Brisbane and Sydney produce the most rugby talent. 80k at the G or a full house at the Adelaide Oval does not change this fact.

- You’re also assuming that I wouldn’t make changes to Australia’s grassroots and junior pathways. Which is untrue. A lot can be done here but unfortunately, the funding for such must come from the professional arm of the game.

You didn’t answer my final question from above. Where does the funding come from for to facilitate a national comp? How does one sell it to potential broadcasters? How do you make it financially attractive enough for professionals?

 

[Members Section]

A few things.

- I think it’s a fairly rational argument to s that reducing the number of teams will lead to an improvement in the quality of players in the remaining teams. Assuming of course they are reallocated.

- I think you’re a little obsessed with attendance figures in Sydney. Whether you like it or not, Brisbane and Sydney produce the most rugby talent. 80k at the G or a full house at the Adelaide Oval does not change this fact.

- You’re also assuming that I wouldn’t make changes to Australia’s grassroots and junior pathways. Which is untrue. A lot can be done here but unfortunately, the funding for such must come from the professional arm of the game.

You didn’t answer my final question from above. Where does the funding come from for to facilitate a national comp? How does one sell it to potential broadcasters? How do you make it financially attractive enough for professionals?

I said it before 8 teams 7 in aus + the drua

But more importantly we need to completely change the way we play, trying to compete v the nz sides isnt working.

If sydney ppl dont support the wallabies why should ra support them with a side if we go down to 3

 

[Goosestep]

It’s pretty embarrassing we don’t have a professional national competition..

I mean, Japan has one … hell America has one ..

 

[Pfitzy]

Count up the World cups between all the teams you mentioned

Count up the years since our last one.

 

[Pfitzy]

Our school boys comps need to start playing more rugby. There is elite junior athletes that join the program in yr9 for example and end up dominating but by the time they reach the pros have around 50 matches of rugby experience. It’s just not enough. They are clearly the best athlete and a class above the rest, but haven’t figured the game out and having to be taught while a pro. But equally not contracting them means we end up with c grade athletic talent.

Easy fix for that:

Schools competitions play mid week, and club plays Saturdays.

Rugby league has been doing this for years and produces ready talent out the doo-dah for their competitions. Also means their guys retain a link with their club rather than getting cut off at 15 and then stopping altogether when they leave school.

Let's face it: the schools comps aren't the biggest and giving kids 10-12 games a year is less than what Subbies offers.

No wonder we've got so many injuries at higher levels. Guys aren't battle-hardened.

More games
More retention
Better outcomes for individuals

Win.